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Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 11:28:39

Newfie wrote:Tanda,
Interesting perspective. I wonder where I fit in? Dad was a bayman, then tried being a handyman, an on job injury put an end to that. No health insurance y know. Then he became the janitor at my high school. That's real cool for a teenager.

I did my service, got a maintenance job, got a degree (39), got a PE (50). Lived in cc Philadelphia married to a psychoanalyst. Neighborhood was so D they had to loan one to the Rs to represent them at my voting spot. True!

Maybe that's why I don't care to align with or support either side. Either I'm terminally confused or can see both sides of the coin too much.

I get the feeling others here have similar varied backgrounds which leads to this rich exchange.



I hear you Newfie. I have been a Libertarian since High School lo those many years ago and I alternate which of the major party candidates I support based on who is closer to my political views. I was no huge fan or apologist for W. Bush and I have been extremely disappointed with the Obama Presidency. The idea of another Clinton Presidency with all the scandals that would mean and the Supreme Court selections that would destroy at least one of what I see as my fundamental rights forced me to support Donald Trump in hopes that he will reverse what I see as too far of a veer to the left. If I had been able to get the candidate I wanted it would have been Dr. Ben Carson, a devout Seventh Day Adventist who came from very humble roots to become the top in his field. However that was not an option so I was left with the awful candidate, or the unknown.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 11:33:54

Two points (if I can remember that long)

1. A few years ago we were lauding working class white men as "The Greatest Generation." I never went for that hype, but how did that group become "The Deplorables."?

2. Oooopsie, too late! It will come back. Maybe.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 12:04:03

Newfie - The developing stats are very interesting: it looks like fewer "white men" voted for Trump then voted for Romney or Mccain. But Trump got more votes from folks of "color" then Romney or Mccain. The numbers coming out seem to indicate that Trump wasn't elected so much by his supporters as Clinton lost because her presumed supporters didn't turn out to vote for her. In particular the black voter turnout, and to a lesser degree young voters, for Clinton was very much lower then for President Obama. Black lives matter but perhaps not as much as black/young votes matter. When you consider how small Trump's Martin was in many states the lack of D turnout may have been the deciding factor.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Pops » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 13:17:55

Newfie wrote:Two points (if I can remember that long)

1. A few years ago we were lauding working class white men as "The Greatest Generation." I never went for that hype, but how did that group become "The Deplorables."?


Because some large enough number elected a POTUS that expresses outright deplorable attitude?

Here it the first part of that speech where she singles out trump's deplorable positions
"I think we know what we're up against. We do, don't we? Donald Trump has pledged to appoint Supreme Court justices who will overturn marriage equality, and if you have read about the ones he says he's likely to support, he's not kidding. In fact, if you look at his running mate, his running mate signed a law that would have allowed businesses to discriminate against LGBT Americans. And there's so much more than I find deplorable in his campaign: the way that he cozies up to white supremacists, makes racist attacks, calls women pigs, mocks people with disabilities -- you can't make this up. He wants to round up and deport 16 million people, calls our military a disaster. And every day he says something else which I find so personally offensive, but also dangerous. You know, the idea of our country is so rooted in continuing progress that we make together. Our campaign slogan is not just words. We really do believe that we are stronger together. We really do believe that showing respect and appreciation for one another lifts us all up."

So she lays out trumps deplorable positions then later calls out his like minded supporters, being generous I think to only point to half as eagerly backing and cheering rhetoric as decisive as any since Wallace.

Words matter
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 13:36:29

The Obama coalition that Hillary was trying to get doesn't include rural and working class white people.

The Ds see their voters as being blacks, hispanics and other people of color, gays, millennials, and well educated whites.

The Ds basically wrote off the white working class and it came back to bite them. It was like the "Reagan Democrats" all over again.

It didn't help that Hillary was part of the establishment and "earned" 250 million dollars giving 40 minute oh-so-secret speeches to the Wall Street billionaires, or that she screwed up on her emails and the DC establishment bent over backwards to give her a free pass. Working class people don't like it when upper class people break the rules and get away with it, while they would get thrown in jail in a second for doing the exact same thing.

Image
The working class voted for Trump and the Rs this time
hall of shame
People who buy new cars and then cry crocodile tears over climate change. The manufacture of a typical new car emits ca. 16 tons of CO2 and a new EV is actually much worse since the battery also has to be manufactured, resulting in a total carbon footprint of ca. 30 tons of CO2
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 15:11:44

Plantagenet wrote:The Obama coalition that Hillary was trying to get doesn't include rural and working class white people.

The Ds see their voters as being blacks, hispanics and other people of color, gays, millennials, and well educated whites.

The Ds basically wrote off the white working class and it came back to bite them. It was like the "Reagan Democrats" all over again.

It didn't help that Hillary was part of the establishment and "earned" 250 million dollars giving 40 minute speeches to the Wall Street billionaires, or that she screwed up on her emails and the DC establishment bent over backwards to give her a free pass. Working class people don't like it when upper class people break the rules and get away with it, while they would get thrown in jail for the same thing.

Image
The working class voted for Trump and the Rs this time



I agree with this post. And also that the republlicans have not done any better either. And also that Trump stoked the racism to get votes as outlined in my last post. All of this is true. Failures all around and Trump stoking racism and scapegoating mexicans to get whites to vote will only ever be even remotely justified if he heals this division he has stoked as president.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 15:19:16

Tanada wrote:
Newfie wrote:Tanda,
Interesting perspective. I wonder where I fit in? Dad was a bayman, then tried being a handyman, an on job injury put an end to that. No health insurance y know. Then he became the janitor at my high school. That's real cool for a teenager.

I did my service, got a maintenance job, got a degree (39), got a PE (50). Lived in cc Philadelphia married to a psychoanalyst. Neighborhood was so D they had to loan one to the Rs to represent them at my voting spot. True!

Maybe that's why I don't care to align with or support either side. Either I'm terminally confused or can see both sides of the coin too much.

I get the feeling others here have similar varied backgrounds which leads to this rich exchange.



I hear you Newfie. I have been a Libertarian since High School lo those many years ago and I alternate which of the major party candidates I support based on who is closer to my political views. I was no huge fan or apologist for W. Bush and I have been extremely disappointed with the Obama Presidency. The idea of another Clinton Presidency with all the scandals that would mean and the Supreme Court selections that would destroy at least one of what I see as my fundamental rights forced me to support Donald Trump in hopes that he will reverse what I see as too far of a veer to the left. If I had been able to get the candidate I wanted it would have been Dr. Ben Carson, a devout Seventh Day Adventist who came from very humble roots to become the top in his field. However that was not an option so I was left with the awful candidate, or the unknown.


Interesting stuff.

My Dad was a real working class hero. WWII vet, truck driver, farmer, miner, semi-pro baseball player, union organizer, gas station owner, real estate salesman, union factory worker.

I was a typical working class kid, but got lucky and won the college scholarship awarded by my Dad's union along with a national merit scholarship and was off to the glorious world of elite east coast colleges.

Newfie is right---I've got that same mixture of working class values and a professional career ---and it gives you a unique perspective on the world.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 18:03:16

Tanada wrote: If I had been able to get the candidate I wanted it would have been Dr. Ben Carson, a devout Seventh Day Adventist who came from very humble roots to become the top in his field. However that was not an option so I was left with the awful candidate, or the unknown.


I frankly would not want a morally impeccable politician as president. They would prove immensely incompetent. We need presidents who can negotiate the slime as well as defend the little guy. These two attributes are necessary to navigate both the domestic and international arena, the geopolitics require street smart slime skills. Trump has some strengths in this regard actually, he lived in NYC and learned alot of ropes that your rural state republicans are frankly clueless about. Carson would not have been effective in this arena in my opinion. Either would someone like Martin Omally, the dem candidate.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby GHung » Fri 22 Dec 2017, 13:40:43

Ibon wrote:
Tanada wrote: If I had been able to get the candidate I wanted it would have been Dr. Ben Carson, a devout Seventh Day Adventist who came from very humble roots to become the top in his field. However that was not an option so I was left with the awful candidate, or the unknown.


I frankly would not want a morally impeccable politician as president. They would prove immensely incompetent. We need presidents who can negotiate the slime as well as defend the little guy. These two attributes are necessary to navigate both the domestic and international arena, the geopolitics require street smart slime skills. Trump has some strengths in this regard actually, he lived in NYC and learned alot of ropes that your rural state republicans are frankly clueless about. Carson would not have been effective in this arena in my opinion. Either would someone like Martin Omally, the dem candidate.


Wondering if Ibon still feels this way.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 23 Dec 2017, 12:30:23

GHung wrote:
Ibon wrote:
Tanada wrote: If I had been able to get the candidate I wanted it would have been Dr. Ben Carson, a devout Seventh Day Adventist who came from very humble roots to become the top in his field. However that was not an option so I was left with the awful candidate, or the unknown.


I frankly would not want a morally impeccable politician as president. They would prove immensely incompetent. We need presidents who can negotiate the slime as well as defend the little guy. These two attributes are necessary to navigate both the domestic and international arena, the geopolitics require street smart slime skills. Trump has some strengths in this regard actually, he lived in NYC and learned alot of ropes that your rural state republicans are frankly clueless about. Carson would not have been effective in this arena in my opinion. Either would someone like Martin Omally, the dem candidate.


Wondering if Ibon still feels this way.


Before withdrawing from the world of commerce I was deeply involved for a couple of decades in business and was in senior management in a multi national corporation and then went off and started my own business which I eventually sold. My business experience was 100% international and mostly in Latin America. You get jaded as the years go by dealing with all the transactions, both clean and shady, that is required to compete.

This comment I made above was at a time I viewed Trump through the lens that he could execute changes based on having had decades of experience in transacting business and could cut through the red tape. At the time I did not know the extent of his pathology of need for praise and paranoia. These are traits that hinder rather than enable cutting through red tape.

I really don't know what is more alarming, Trumps manic need of being praised as an autocrat or the willingness of so many to be duped by him.

I have 3 decades of dealing with autocratic personalities with all my experience doing business in developing countries. I think most Americans do not really appreciate how unstable Trump really is in this regard. It is frightening frankly.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Cog » Sat 23 Dec 2017, 12:37:39

Federal employees and budgets are being slashed in the various departments. Largest tax cuts since Reagan have been passed, stock market historic high, unemployment 17 year low. I'll take seven more years of Trump thank you. Don't care about his vanity or need for praise. I'll be happy to give him the credit as long as he keeps up the good work.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby GHung » Sat 23 Dec 2017, 12:56:33

Thanks, Ibon. I was just curious as to how your evaluations have evolved.

Cog wrote:Federal employees and budgets are being slashed in the various departments. Largest tax cuts since Reagan have been passed, stock market historic high, unemployment 17 year low. I'll take seven more years of Trump thank you. Don't care about his vanity or need for praise. I'll be happy to give him the credit as long as he keeps up the good work.


Could it be you feel that way because those changes won't affect you, or that they will affect you, personally, in positive ways?

What's good for you is good for everybody. Right?
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Cog » Sat 23 Dec 2017, 16:11:25

GHung wrote:Thanks, Ibon. I was just curious as to how your evaluations have evolved.

Cog wrote:Federal employees and budgets are being slashed in the various departments. Largest tax cuts since Reagan have been passed, stock market historic high, unemployment 17 year low. I'll take seven more years of Trump thank you. Don't care about his vanity or need for praise. I'll be happy to give him the credit as long as he keeps up the good work.


Could it be you feel that way because those changes won't affect you, or that they will affect you, personally, in positive ways?

What's good for you is good for everybody. Right?


These changes benefit us all with the exception of federal employees. If they have skills that are useful, they can work for the private sector. If not they can sit at home and stare at the wall for all I care. audentes Fortuna iuvat
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 23 Dec 2017, 19:36:44

Drawing unemployment and/or welfare

It’s generally not considered good to increase the unemployment rate.

That’s a bit of a double bind there.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Cog » Sat 23 Dec 2017, 22:40:26

Oh and Ibon Mexican isn't a race, its a nationality. But of course you knew that before you threw out your usual racism charge. But you call anyone who doesn't want open borders a racist so nothing new in that arena. But I digress.

You should know Newfie that federal pay and benefits have outstripped the private sector on average and did so some time ago. Unemployment is paid through an insurance program and not by me. When the laid off federal workers decide to go back to work, there are always some burger flipping openings if they get bored staring at walls.

Cutting the federal bureaucracy down to size is a very good thing. Return things to the state level where the politicians are more answerable to their constituents.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 24 Dec 2017, 05:54:32

Cog wrote:Oh and Ibon Mexican isn't a race, its a nationality. But of course you knew that before you threw out your usual racism charge. But you call anyone who doesn't want open borders a racist so nothing new in that arena. But I digress.


Digress? No. You are true to form with 9000 plus posts all pretty much orbiting around the same topic.

I am only commenting because I have no clue what you are referring to here? I looked upstream and saw nothing related to Mexico or Mexicans.

Cog, it's Chriistmas, go out there and feed some homeless person and get your head out of this digital box!
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Cog » Sun 24 Dec 2017, 06:31:15

You didn't look very hard. About three posts up.


I agree with this post. And also that the republlicans have not done any better either. And also that Trump stoked the racism to get votes as outlined in my last post. All of this is true. Failures all around and Trump stoking racism and scapegoating mexicans to get whites to vote will only ever be even remotely justified if he heals this division he has stoked as president.
Last edited by Cog on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 06:38:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 24 Dec 2017, 06:36:57

Cog wrote:You didn't look very hard.


No I didn't. I cannot compete with you. You win. Merry Christmas Cog.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Cog » Sun 24 Dec 2017, 06:41:50

Obviously you can't compete with me on remembering what you posted. But you have a Merry Christmas too.
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