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Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Pops » Wed 09 Nov 2016, 23:40:21

Ibon wrote:...denigrating and villifying and joking about rural white americans and christians in the hinterland.

how can a white guy be discriminated against for being white by a society where white men are on the top rung? If you don't like being called a hillbilly by white city people then don't be a hillbilly! Or if you do like being a hillbilly then what does it matter? Do you want a ribbon?

Those Trump supporters out in the sticks aren't necessarily "economically disenfranchised" in fact trumps supporters were found in the primaries to make more than D supporters:
The median household income of a Trump voter so far in the primaries is about $72,000, based on estimates derived from exit polls and Census Bureau data. That’s lower than the $91,000 median for Kasich voters. But it’s well above the national median household income of about $56,000. It’s also higher than the median income for Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders supporters, which is around $61,000 for both.


In the country, regular people have 2 options, get educated and move away to the city where cost of living is high (but so is the pay), or don't and stay rural where pay is low, if available at all. Not everyone is cut out for higher education and alas there are fewer and fewer manual labor or low skill jobs in the country. In my experience this group may well feel trapped and powerless. But that doesn't mean the are the victim of discrimination, whose fault is it that everyone moved to town and took all the jobs?

(I had to prune that a bit,LOL)
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the ... s-support/
http://www.cbsnews.com/elections/2016/p ... inia/exit/
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 00:10:27

Revi - "I gave up being tough enough to hold off the zombie hordes long ago." LOL. The trick is to have strong ties to a rural clan that would protect our butts when things got bad. By shear coincidence by daughter is located in such a fairly isolated rural area. Only two roads in and enough deer hunting friends to protect the families from a hord...zombie of otherwise. LOL.

She's also in the process of learning how to go solar.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 06:49:42

Pops wrote:
Ibon wrote:...denigrating and villifying and joking about rural white americans and christians in the hinterland.

how can a white guy be discriminated against for being white by a society where white men are on the top rung? If you don't like being called a hillbilly by white city people then don't be a hillbilly! Or if you do like being a hillbilly then what does it matter? Do you want a ribbon?


The racism is ugly, the divisiveness has been horrific. We have to see to what degree some healing can take place. Many folks are scared, rightfully so. Your wife cried, my two daughters, both people of color, cried as well. The fact that Trump used racism to connect to whites in the hinterland in order to get votes is despicable but has to be seen in the context that those voters were feeling increasingly abandoned by forces that the democratic party failed to address. Many of these voters did vote for Obama in passed elections.

Can Trump do any better than Obama to bring back prosperity to the hnterlands? The origins of which are systemic problems that you do not unwind in four years.

I am heartened by the fact that the party that has been obstructionist and divisive and blocking the functioning of government is now the party that owns the very problems they have criticized. You can scapegoat for awhile but the buck stops now with the Republicans to move toward effective governance that embraces the interests of all Americans of all creeds and colors.

There is not a lot of patience from either the urban person of color nor the disenfranchised red state citizen for BAU grid lock.

Trump might surprise us in spite of being perhaps the least virtuous president to ever hold the office.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Pops » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 07:30:51

I appreciate your optimism Ibon but nothing you say indicates the Rs legislative agenda will change simply because they have power.

Whatever list published by a campaign hack has too little credence to waste the electricity to lite up a monitor with.

The Ra agenda is the same as it ever was, except for that bit about letting Russia invade whomever it pleases. Just a different bunch of promises to enable the same Randian goal. Now it is tax and regulation cuts for the wealth with a side of protectionism and xenophobia rather than tax and regulation cuts for the wealthy with a side of praise the Lord and pass the ammo.

All the same in the end.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 07:39:21

Pops wrote:I appreciate your optimism Ibon but nothing you say indicates the Rs legislative agenda will change simply because they have power.

Whatever list published by a campaign hack has too little credence to waste the electricity to lite up a monitor with.

The Ra agenda is the same as it ever was, except for that bit about letting Russia invade whomever it pleases. Just a different bunch of promises to enable the same Randian goal. Now it is tax and regulation cuts for the wealth with a side of protectionism and xenophobia rather than tax and regulation cuts for the wealthy with a side of praise the Lord and pass the ammo.

All the same in the end.


That's probably true. As I mentioned though there is less patience now, more potential volatility. Rural americans will not benefit from establishment republican policies, in fact they will be worse off than under a democratic administration. In volatile times the wrath can shift from one party to the other rather quickly. There will be increasing pressure.

Trump primitive egotism in the end may counter intuitively help move things in the right direction if for the wrong reason.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Pops » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 08:03:37

You may be right Ibon

Trump is the Rs shark-jump, or at least I hope this is the worst they can do.

My hope is not that they will turn a new leaf, trump himself and the R donorship are completely aligned in the realm of taxes and regulation— LOL, trump is one of them—and since his plans are even more tilted to the rich it is obvious the supporters simply don't care as long as you have the correct platitudes and attitude..


The Rs will almost certainly overreach. really that is my only consolation, and in fact my best case for the way forward. They will send us the way of Kansas and when enough publics schools crumble to support charters and enough potholes merge to form washboard and enough public agencies hang out the closed sign, then, maybe the rural folks might wake up to the facts.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 08:08:56

Pops wrote: They will send us the way of Kansas and when enough publics schools crumble to support charters and enough potholes merge to form washboard and enough public agencies hang out the closed sign, then, maybe the rural folks might wake up to the facts.


My brother sent me a comment today that I will post here. It is somehow relevant.

Politics is sport in the eyes of most people. Don't think too much and stick to your team no matter what. The defense I hear on behalf of Trump is impressive including how much Hillary lies and how Trump is completely honest and tells it exactly like it is. Stunning unquestioning obedience.

When Trump says "I love the uneducated" his "uneducated" followers are not insulted but truly feel loved. It's extreme deity and grand wizard worship, the kind of shit that gets a country into a world war. People would rather simply follow than question and this big protective bully is easy to feel comfy under. If Trump was a small man he wouldn't have won and his same antics would be more laughable. It's simple monkey shit.

I am guilty of that too. When liberals get elected I relax and become more apathetic to their behavior. Then I am shocked like hell when conservatives get in and I loathe their every move.

I should know better.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Pops » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 08:16:49

Ibon wrote:[i]When Trump says "I love the uneducated" his "uneducated" followers are not insulted but truly feel loved.

Very good! lol
don't know if it's true but it rings
and like Jay Z saying the N word I can laugh at the uneducated cuz I are one.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 08:31:45

More language distortion by the knee jerk left. Saying you want to control the rate of immigration and know who is coming into the country is not racist, it is simple common sense. Canada has stricter immigration laws than the USA for crying out loud! You guys need to get a grip on reality.

It is also the case that if you are a blue collar worker of any color and the government allows an illegal immigrant to be hired by your boss for sub minimum wage and refuses to enforce the law you are left with nowhere to turn. Rule of law protects the poor from the actions of the wealthy, why is that so hard for you to understand?

No culture anywhere has a majority of artists and philosophers, someone has to do the plumbing and electrical work, collect the trash, pave and maintain the roads and bridges. By denigrating all the blue collar workers you are ignoring the facts on the ground, they have to be the majority of the population or society crumbles. Calling them names because they have a different perspective on how the world works is not helpful and prevents you from understanding where they are coming from and why they are voting the way they are.

The key to understanding is the same as the key to debating. If you can not express the other sides viewpoint in the way they would express it you do not actually understand it at all.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 08:32:46

Screw the politics. There is virtually nothing either side can do to effect the world trajectory. Theater.

Where it is at is taking care of yourself and loved ones.

I liked the Bananna Republic discussion. Forget the government as a force of good or evil. It is the weather or the sea, a big mindless force.

What can we effect? Put our efforts there. Be good people. Ignore the sock puppets in office. Learn to fly under their radar.

Some good people will get hurt. That is dreadful. It always happens in nature. Politics is just human nature.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 08:40:42

Tanda,
Interesting perspective. I wonder where I fit in? Dad was a bayman, then tried being a handyman, an on job injury put an end to that. No health insurance y know. Then he became the janitor at my high school. That's real cool for a teenager.

I did my service, got a maintenance job, got a degree (39), got a PE (50). Lived in cc Philadelphia married to a psychoanalyst. Neighborhood was so D they had to loan one to the Rs to represent them at my voting spot. True!

Maybe that's why I don't care to align with or support either side. Either I'm terminally confused or can see both sides of the coin too much.

I get the feeling others here have similar varied backgrounds which leads to this rich exchange.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Pops » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 08:47:23

Tanada wrote:More language distortion by the knee jerk left. Saying you want to control the rate of immigration and know who is coming into the country is not racist, it is simple common sense. Canada has stricter immigration laws than the USA for crying out loud! You guys need to get a grip on reality.


come on man

Why immigration reform died in Congress

Immigration reform couldn’t pass into law when Republicans controlled the White House and Congress (in 2005-2006). It couldn’t pass when a Republican was in the White House and Democrats controlled Congress (in 2007-2008). It couldn’t pass when Democrats controlled both the executive and legislative branches (in 2009-2010). And now we officially know this after yesterday: It isn’t going to pass with a Democrat in the White House, Democrats in charge of the Senate, and Republicans in charge of the House of Representatives (2011-2014). Back in 2008 or 2012, Republicans COULD argue that President Obama didn’t make immigration reform a priority, or that he took steps to stymie reform in when he was a senator. (And 2010, in particular, the one REAL moment of the Obama first term when immigration was possible, it was Senate Democratic leaders who weren’t ready to give up the politics of the issue. And the White House didn’t fight.) But now, no reasonable person can say that immigration’s death -- in 2013 and 2014 -- is anyone’s fault but House Republicans. Still, we also understand why they killed it: They saw no short-term benefit. Yes, the long-term politics (for 2016 and 2020) cry out for Republicans to remove immigration as an issue.

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/first-r ... ss-n145276

pretty close, right up to that last bit, goes to show what chuck knows LOL, mexican rapists won the election as surely as willie horton
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 08:58:02

More BS distortion Pops, I thought you were better than that.

The Hispanic members of my extended family voted for Trump, and Clinton, and Gary Johnson, because they never bought into the Trump is a Racist crap. Sanctuary cities and open door policies are a problem, not a solution. Until you wrap your head around that you do not understand Joe6P at all.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Revi » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 09:08:59

We are the outsiders again. With Obama in there, we thought that somehow our policies were being advanced, between bouts of drone bombing and backroom deals. Some of us got health insurance, some of us felt that our climate change worries were being listened to. Now we are on the outside again. A place we are used to, since we lived through GW Bush's time. It's a lot like a third world country. The different regimes come and go. Our particular faction now has to fade back into the shadows. There are a lot more of us now. We are still here. Now we are the outsiders...
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 09:27:07

Revi wrote:We are the outsiders again. With Obama in there, we thought that somehow our policies were being advanced, between bouts of drone bombing and backroom deals. Some of us got health insurance, some of us felt that our climate change worries were being listened to. Now we are on the outside again. A place we are used to, since we lived through GW Bush's time. It's a lot like a third world country. The different regimes come and go. Our particular faction now has to fade back into the shadows. There are a lot more of us now. We are still here. Now we are the outsiders...


You got your eight years of lip service in the 1990's and 2008-2016. Its just the ebb and flow process.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Pops » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 09:34:10

you can't on the one hand blame, let's see, "the knee jerk left", for lax immigration laws when clearly the Rs are just as much to blame.

I mean you can, doesn't accomplish anything but I guess it promotes the party.

You all have these little bumper stickers that mean a lot to you but I can't keep up with, "sanctuary city" "open door"

We don''t have "open borders", the us has an annual limit of 650k immigrants, if it should be less why not make the case and lower it? if it should have more why not argue that?

Build a wal? really? lol
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 09:38:21

Tanada wrote:More language distortion by the knee jerk left. Saying you want to control the rate of immigration and know who is coming into the country is not racist, it is simple common sense. Canada has stricter immigration laws than the USA for crying out loud! You guys need to get a grip on reality.


Our previous government reduced the number of family reunification immigrants, increased the number of immigrants coming in under a point system that helped ensure they had the job and language skills needed to succeed, placed more restrictions on temporary foreign workers, made it more difficult for international students to stay after acquiring a degree, made it more difficult to sponsor a spouse to come to Canada and resisted the pressure to bring large numbers of Syrian refugees. All good things!

Our current government is reversing almost all of these changes. The share for family reunification is up. The share for skilled immigrants coming in under the point system has been reduced. We've taken in roughly 30,000 Syrian refugees. The success rate for refugees is lower than it is for other types of immigrants and even lower for government sponsored refugees (a significant percentage of the Syrian refugees were sponsored by private groups and generally get more help with adjusting to life in Canada than government sponsored refugees). They are planning to make it easier for international students to remain and are likely to provide more opportunities for temporary foreign workers to acquire permanent citizenship. The target for the number of immigrants per year has been increased to 300,000 and a business panel advising our Finance Minister on how to stimulate growth has recommended increasing that limit to 450,000 a year. So while Canada had been on the right track, we've now backed up and headed down the other fork on the road.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Paulo1 » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 09:53:58

Tanada is right when she referenced Canada's immigration policiy. It is hard to get in and yet we take in a far higher percentage of refugees.

And when our last right wing Govt ramped up foreign worker permits for their corporation buddy boys our citizens protested and they scaled it back in just a few months. Mind you, we still have a 30+ percent unionization rate. US around or less than 10%. It helps. Your undocumented problems are solely a result of pandering to Tyson and ilk. If undocumented illegals were really a problem for the powers who politicians answer to they would fine the companies....But they don't, hmmmmwonder why?

You can boycott the products, beat up the politicians, or burn the plants down. Judging by the different stock(s) rallies yesterday, the election of Trump won't help too many regular folks.
http://wolfstreet.com/2016/11/09/this-i ... ump-crash/

But, I think this quote says a great deal. (And I am very proud to be rural).

"As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. sic[buffoon]"

~ H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 11:19:32

Revi - Not a complete list but let's look at how matters went when y'all were on the "inside" (Obama time) and when on the "outside" (Bush time): higher global CO2 levels while on the "inside", higher US GHG emissions while on the "inside" then the "outside", higher oil/NG production and consumption while on the " iinside", 300%+ more US coal exports (most of it from govt leases) while on the "inside" then when on the "outside", more US coal produced during the 8 years on the " inside" then during the prervious 8 years on the "outside" (BTW according to the Sierra Club 40% of all US coal production is currently coming from the federal leases administered by the current POTUS), lower % of potential work force employed, greatest oil spill in US history while y'all had the " "inside" track, greater income disparity on the "inside" then when on the "outside", more money spent on the US military during time on the "inside" then previously on the "outside", almost 2X as many citizens on food stamps when you were on the " iinside" as when on the "outside", etc, etc.

Perhaps I'm reading you wrong but it almost sounds like you might be bragging about the "improvements" made while on the "inside" with President Obama then when on the "outside" with President Bush.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 10 Nov 2016, 11:21:09

Tanada wrote:More language distortion by the knee jerk left. Saying you want to control the rate of immigration and know who is coming into the country is not racist, it is simple common sense. .


Using immigrants as scapegoats was a campaign tactic that Trump used to win the white vote. Because of the perception more than the reality that immigrants are depressing wages and stealing jobs. Illegal immigration has been flat and decreasing since 2005.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... n-the-u-s/

That deportations were way up under Obama has not gotten a lot of press:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... ks-about-/

Basically this building of a wall and threatening to deport have only been campaign issues when you see the statistics above which are moving the desired direction. There is no significant policy changes required except a humane pathway toward residency for the population of undocumented immigrants already here, many of which have been here for more than a decade and have children born in the USA. As I mentioned they are not significantly impacting white blue collar workers.

Trump is a master at stoking the fear of the electorate, in this case the disenfranchised blue collar workers and he used immigration as a scapegoat to the more serious sources of the problem which is automation and exporting of factory jobs overseas. I really want to see Trumps actions on that front which is much more relevant to helping the blue collar worker than scapegoating a bunch of mexicans.

Tanada, this is now the Republicans opportunity to own these issues and see how they do. Pops is right that under Republican control in the past immigration was never really addressed and I am sure lobbyists from agriculture and Purdue Chicken were strong republican supporters since decades!

Now that Trump has won he moves from campaign rhetoric to having to solve real issues. Let's see how he does. I come from a more liberal and progressive orientation but I am much more result driven than partisan driven at this point. I want to see the lives of blue collar workers and the hinterland experience an economic revival and if Trump succeeds in doing this then I will salute him. Neither party has done much until now.
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