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Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 24 Dec 2017, 09:09:31

Cog wrote:You should know Newfie that federal pay and benefits have outstripped the private sector on average and did so some time ago. Unemployment is paid through an insurance program and not by me. When the laid off federal workers decide to go back to work, there are always some burger flipping openings if they get bored staring at walls.

Cutting the federal bureaucracy down to size is a very good thing. Return things to the state level where the politicians are more answerable to their constituents.


And who pays for the insurance program and welfare? The working man.

As automation increases and we off shore our production the inevitable outcome is that jobs become more and more scarce. To have a job becomes a privilege. The social compact we have means that we need to provide some modicum of social welfare to all citizens lest the arise in arms.

You should know that the purpose of many government jobs and programs of all ilks is to provide income distribution so that the masses don’t rise against the government.

It’s anothe catch 22, if you reduce government waste the. You need to find alternative means if redistributing the wealth.

A clear capitalist mind would sort this out in short order.

We hve two solutions: in erased socializing OR reduced population. Increased growth is a fools errand for obvious reasons.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Cog » Sun 24 Dec 2017, 09:21:30

No, the purpose of government is not to redistribute wealth no matter what you have been told by the social justice warriors. The purpose of the government is to protect my rights. Those inalienable rights being life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. All else it does is an infringement on those rights in some way or the other.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 24 Dec 2017, 09:58:31

Cog wrote:No, the purpose of government is not to redistribute wealth no matter what you have been told by the social justice warriors. The purpose of the government is to protect my rights. Those inalienable rights being life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. All else it does is an infringement on those rights in some way or the other.


Leave the jingoism in the schoolyard. Let's keep this an intelligent discussion of ideas.

The purpose of government is NOT to protect your RIGHTS beyond the right to live. That is undeniably true for the vast majority of governments that ever existed, perhaps all. It is your desire and wish that that be true, but the physical implementation is different. At best you are speaking of THIS (USA) government, but I can cite innumerable cases where the rights of citizens you propose have been and continue to be trampled. But all of this is a divergence from the topic.

But, for sake of argument, let's assume you are correct,mow does that refute my argument? How are "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" attainable without a means of income? And if the government can not assure you a culture with adequate work (let alone meaningful or fulfilling work) they are not protecting these RIGHTS.

On a more fundamental basis the government needs to provide the means to sustain life. If it can not do that then it must resort to extreme measures (Soviet Russia/China) to remain in control. Or loose control, French Revolution.

So demagoguery aside, governments need to find some way to feed the masses, to sustain their lives. And that, in our particular culture, requires wealth distribution.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 25 Dec 2017, 07:48:46

Newfie wrote:
Leave the jingoism in the schoolyard. Let's keep this an intelligent discussion of ideas.


9000 plus posts of jingoism and you still attempt intelligent discussion?
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Cog » Mon 25 Dec 2017, 08:31:27

This is actually a fairly easy thing for government to do Newfie. The government stays out of the way of the business community by cutting regulations, lowering taxes, and discouraging sloth by not rewarding it. Humans have an instinctive sense of self-preservation. They like to eat.

Already with the cut in corporate rates in the USA, the EU and Australia are complaining that this makes them uncompetitive with the USA in global trade. When money comes flooding into the USA, jobs and capital will come with it. We already have a seventeen year low unemployment rate of 4.1%. That can drop even lower. This does not mean the work will be meaningful or enjoyable but it will be available.

But bottom line is the government does not create jobs. It creates an environment in which jobs can be created by capitalists. You are responsible to feed yourself to the best of your ability. That is not the role of government no matter how hard that idea is pushed.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 25 Dec 2017, 16:47:43

I do think the government creates many jobs, and so do you, because you campaign for their removal. I frequently point to the many thousands of medical records and medical insurance jobs that exist because our governments policies. TSA (Thousands Standing Around) is another example of government created jobs, more direct.

Yes I get where you are coming from. And there is much we agree upon. I have turned from being a convienced globalist to a deep cynic. But somewhere you and I disconnect.

I see no good in increased growth. And I see that the government needs to keep the populace feed or risk its own demise. This means the ultra wealthy need to share some of their cash flow in order to sustain order and internal peace. The government is the mechanism they use to do that.

And I don’t think there is a committee or directorate, it’s just sort of evolved that way thru human nature.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby GHung » Mon 25 Dec 2017, 18:06:45

I guess Cog thinks we're idiots who don't know that government capital redistribution programs are one of the best things to happen to capitalism, even though he's been skimming off of those schemes for years, considering the way he brags about his investments. Government handouts increase the velocity of money significantly, and recipients spend that money back into the economy where people who don't work for it stick out their own little safety nets and pocket chunks of it without having to do a damn thing.

Just buy stocks, etc, and take your cut, eh, Coggo? Meanwhile, those corporations you invest in use their tax breaks and zero interest loans (which those "handout recipients" end up paying back at some point, somehow) to boost your stock prices and dividends. That's tough on guys like you Cog; really tough.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Cog » Mon 25 Dec 2017, 18:32:50

Risk to capital, which is what stock investing is, is rewarded in the form of dividends and stock appreciation. It does not always work out that way since people do lose money in the stock market, while others gain. Life is risk. To say an investor does nothing and the money just flows into his pocket, it to not understand how risk of capital works.

Many companies fail and fortunes are lost. Enron and Bear Stearns are two recent examples. Over-reach, fraud, not understanding trends, etc are all things that occur in the corporate world.

If you are fortunate enough to have a good job, you trade your labor for capital in excess of what you consume to live. You can do anything with that excess capital. You can buy toys, land, put it under a mattress, or you can invest it in the equity markets. Its up to you and it should be up to you since its your capital to play with. How were Newfie and Ibon able to afford to purchase their dreams of boats and mountain retreats? They traded their labor for the excess capital to do so.

If you don't like the corporate world, then start your own deal. Work for yourself if you believe its easy to do. I can assure you its not which is why a lot of people are very comfortable in trading huge chunks of their life to a corporation so they can use the excess capital to do other more pleasant things.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby GHung » Mon 25 Dec 2017, 18:46:13

I didn't say I didn't like the corporate world. I just don't like people who dance around subjects and can't admit they need government as much as welfare moms do. They're scared to death that people will figure out that parasitism runs the entire scale of income brackets.

By-in-large, the best human beings I've hung out with didn't have a pot to piss in, while some of the worst had everything, at least, convinced themselves they did.

You don't know what real risk is, Cog. That's my take.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 25 Dec 2017, 19:53:08

And jumping back to the theme of the thread. I know of few people how have picked rural vs urban lifestyles based upon any benefit other then one: employment. The vast majority of urban dwellers I know have zero employment opportunities in a rural area. And I do now more then a few urban dwellers that drive 20,000 miles (or more) every year for their "urban" job. And often in heavy traffic. I have also met almost now rural workers (including those working for oil field service companies) that live in urban areas.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 10:42:27

Correct, that’s where the jobs are. And I know a bunch of folks who spend most of most weeks commuting by airplane and living out of a suitcase. (Funny spellcheck “corrected” that to “shitcase”. More appropriate.). Did too much of that myself.

Maybe it has more to do with how comfortable you feel in a crowd. I know some folks who just LOVE the city, they want to feel the flow of humanity wrapping around them. Maybe if you grow up in the herd you become accustomed to it.

That’s not me.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Cog » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 12:10:14

Suburbia was the compromise that allowed you to have good paying jobs in the city and not having to live with the crime, taxes, congestion, and horrible schools in the urban centers. For most of us it has worked out pretty well.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 12:47:54

A lot of small businessmen make a good living servicing the needs of suburbanites and spend every workday in the burbs and usually live there as well. It ranges from the guys that mow the lawns and plow the drives to those that repair or replace your roof shingles every so often. And if you have paid a plumbers or electrican's bill lately you know that they are not doing it for cheap. There is also things like daycare centers, schools, and corner markets , spas and shops that are big employers along with your local dentist and doctor's offices. A lot of the residents of a suburb don't commute all the way into the urban area to work.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 12:57:08

That’s all service industry. Where is the primary industry?
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 13:01:37

Newfie wrote:That’s all service industry. Where is the primary industry?

80 percent of the jobs in the USA are service sector. The other 20% are in the mines, oil fields and auto factories etc. where they always were.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Cog » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 13:57:43

Newfie wrote:That’s all service industry. Where is the primary industry?


Depends on what you call a primary industry. Take for example Monsanto. They have a huge campus of buildings and want to add more. To accomplish that feat, they need outside consultants in the fields of structural, electrical, and civil engineers. That brings along CAD operators, construction inspectors, construction surveyors. So who is primary and who is service? I'm not even counting the endless numbers of asphalt layers, carpenters, plumbers, electricians, and all the trades involved in making a new building and parking lot.

There are many spin-off industries who exist because someone wants to build something.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 15:14:35

Ibon wrote:
Newfie wrote:
Leave the jingoism in the schoolyard. Let's keep this an intelligent discussion of ideas.


9000 plus posts of jingoism and you still attempt intelligent discussion?

I don't think that's fair to Cog.

We all (me included) have topics we get all "het up" and sensitive about, and might get irrational or aggressive about when we argue about them, from time to time.

Cog certainly tends to get that way about, for example, taxes as theft and guns. But that doesn't make all (or even close, IMO) of his posts unreasonable, or belonging in the same bucket.

In recent weeks, for example, he's chipped in on the side of "facts, history, and trends do exist" in the ETP discussion, and IMO he's been no more "unreasonable" than any of the ETP-is-nonsense side of the discussion.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 15:27:21

Yes and the same "primary" rock quarry that supplies aggregates to highway construction concrete central mix plants and asphalt road paving plants also serve the house foundation builders and driveway pavers. Often it is the same crew or truck driver just delivering to a different address.
And behind that is a cement kiln and a oil refinery supplying the cements for both plants.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Cog » Tue 26 Dec 2017, 16:30:24

People think its jingoism when you repeat back to them exactly what the signers of the Declaration and the Constitution thought the role of government was.

But I expect nothing much from people who want to elevate the common beasts of the field to that of humanity. They value nothing that is important to me.
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