[IanC]

I just read this article and found it disturbing on many levels. The authors seem to do a good job of explaining the nefarious intersection of Communist party politics with runaway capitalist growth.

What I found most shocking was the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of deaths they have each year that can be directly attributed to the sequelae of environmental degradation. How can the people tolerate that? I suppose they have no choice in the matter, especially, as you read later in the article, the government suppresses the statistics to avoid social upheaval.

Once again, it all comes back to our consumerist ways. In the race to the bottom, purchasing our goods from the lowest bidder, what do we expect? We have to learn to live with less and stop wanting stuff. Unfortunately, this goes against generations of social condtioning to want to amass as much as possible.

I think we should boycott the 2008 Olympics. Why would we want our best young athletes to stew in the cesspool?

-IanC
Portland

[Ludi]

forget I said anything.

[IanC]

Ludi,

History sure seems to support your sentiments that there is some cultural acceptance of mass death among the Chinese. However, I'd like to hear that coming from someone from that culture. Otherwise it sounds a little too much like former defence secretary Robert Macnamara's assertion that, "They (the Vietnamese) don't value life the way we do."

I think that if you have 1.2 Billion people living in a section of one country, mass death is going to be a fact of life, however unpleasant.

Sincerely,

Ian

[Ludi]

I'm sure the individual people feel as strongly as we do about the death of loved ones.

[Johnvancouver]

Ludi's statement on the cultural acceptance of mass death among Chinese is false. I grew up in China and still go back to visit once or twice a year. In my view, people in China value lives just as much as people in the west do. That said, the country is hopelessly hooked on growth and more growth at the expense of the environment. I grew up during the latter part of the Cultural Revolution and experienced first-hand the poverty and political chaos of that era. But I also have wonderful memories of the pristine environment and the simple living back then. Sure, most people in the city own more stuff nowadays, but when everything considered, it is hard for me to say if life is better today.

[Ludi]

I never said they don't value life!



Man, way to make a person look like a jerk.


<<<<< a jerk, I guess.

[Johnvancouver]

I didn't mean to be personal, Ludi. Please go back to read your statement again and think about what that implies.

[Ludi]

Happy now?

god damn.

[Homesteader]

Johnvancouver,

Welcome to the PeakOil. Looking forward to your perspective in many more posts.

I only know about China from what I read. So, that pretty much means I don't know squat about China.

[Zardoz]

How much they "value life" is not the issue. The point is that their obsession with economic growth has pushed things past a tipping point. It has gone beyond anyone's control, apparently. It really does appear that the government won't be able to retrieve the situation even if they make an all-out effort to do so.

The tail really is wagging the dog now. It may be hopelessly out of hand. Total disaster appears to be a certainty.

[coyote]

I read this article in this morning's newspaper, and was going to post it if no one else had. It's shocking -- even a gloomer like me had no real idea how bad it's gotten over there. This makes me glad I live here, where the destruction visited upon the land I love is only somewhat unbearable.

The U.S has a higher per capita carbon footprint than china.

sirrom, it's a damn good thing their per capita carbon footprint is lower than ours -- considering how many capitas they've got.

[Johnvancouver]

Homesteader, my view is that you can trust most of what you read about the economic development and environmental problems in China but there is some bias in western media when comes to human rights and the Tibet issue. The most one-sided reports that I came across were those that criticize the one-child policy.

Coming back to the environmental destructions, most people living in China have not realized the extent of the problem. This is sad and it also partially explains why environment is not high on the Chinese government’s agenda. We in the west probably should not view China’s growth and environmental problems in isolation. If we all consume less, there will be a lot less pressure on Mother Nature everywhere, including China. The consumer culture that we have here is indirectly contributing to their problems.

[Zardoz]

The consumer culture that we have here is indirectly contributing to their problems.

Absolutely. Our part in this tragedy is very big, indeed.

[joewp]

I remember when the United States 'won' the 'cold war' against communism' and forced capitalism on that country.

I absolutely and unequivocally blame my country the United States for China's plight today. We would not allow the people of China to own their own country. We have forced them to build our crap and stew in our shit.

We just basically (who am I, Matt Simmons?) exported our pollution and pollution-related costs to them. Instead of all that CO2 and particulate matter being expelled from factories in West Virginia and Montana, it's being expelled from factories in China. This is what "lower costs" to corporations is, an opportunity to externalize their environmental costs on the society. The US "wised up" a couple of decades ago and forced rudimentary, but expensive pollution controls on manufacturing, energy production and such, so the multi-nationals just found a place that didn't care and didn't make them pay to clean up their mess.

And now the people of China are dying, so that some corporatist can make more money. What a fucked up world we live in.

[coyote]

Yes... environmental catastrophe is one of our biggest exports.

[mistel]

http://www.mongrelmedia.com/films/Manuf ... capes.html

on the shelf at Blockbuster (my local one at least!) Very interesting, if a little slow, but definitely worth a look

Manufactured Landscapes

Peter

[alokin]

I'm pretty sure that the US will see an economic decline this year, inflation recession depression, whatever. As a result less energy will be used. This could help the climate maybe more than Bali or Kyoto conferences (I've lost really my faith in this kind of actions, nothing comes out, no country wants a real change).

What will happen with China India? Maybe they will loose a good customer but remain economically strong and trade within Asia?

Then it wouldn't look good for the climate as both countries are not likely to reduce CO2 emissions.

There is no powerful grassroots revolution in sight to save the earth climate and governments: forget about them (especially those of the big countries). What we need is either a shortfall of oil or a downturn of the western economy. Everything that keeps us going worsens the situation.

Maybe this is a radical way of seeing the future but there is about 40 years of an ecological movement and the state of the earth gets worse every day.

[FireJack]

If things get bad in china I expect civil war. Hundreds of millions living in an exceptionally polluted landscape and if things keep going they way they are they'll be big food shortages too.

[aflurry]

There is no powerful grassroots revolution in sight to save the earth climate and governments: forget about them (especially those of the big countries). What we need is either a shortfall of oil or a downturn of the western economy. Everything that keeps us going worsens the situation.

I look at things this way myself. I have no faith in environmental "movement" politics. I have seen too many environmentally themed bumper stickers. Despite good intentions, it is far too superficial to make any real difference. And I believe it is largely the product of privilege. Every new environmental strategy fast becomes a meaningless marketing term because people will pay a premium for altruism.

So i often cheer for higher oil prices and recession, not because i am a nihilist doomer, but because the only way people will use less, is if that can afford less.

However, this too is simplistic. Skyrocketing oil prices, recession, depression, lead to desperation. And that's when things go haywire. We'll go back to coal, and we'll drop environmental standards to make coal power cheaper.

So therein lies the rub. When we are fat and happy we cannot sacrifice for the future, which worsens the situation. But when we are hungry, we will burn the future for dinner, which will worsen it even more.

man, i got a case of the mondays.