[FreakOil]

I wish I had a magic button that would make China wink out of existence. I swear I'd push it.

China has become the keystone in the archway leading to doom.

After a certain point, now well within sight, there will be very little left to be said, or done.

The Chinese export most of the products that they make out of wood. Who do you think buy them?

[FoolYap]

I wish I had a magic button that would make China wink out of existence. I swear I'd push it.

China has become the keystone in the archway leading to doom.

After a certain point, now well within sight, there will be very little left to be said, or done.

The Chinese export most of the products that they make out of wood. Who do you think buy them?

Ditto that. Rampant consumerism in the West is why China is a "problem". Without the likes of WalMart, and the shoppers therein, China would still largely be a nation of poor farmers rather than a nation of poor wage-slaves helping to turn the world into cheap crap for us to buy.

--Steve

[Heineken]

I didn't say we aren't part of the problem. We are, big time.

It's the addition of Chindia to the wrecking machine that is pushing the world over the edge, though.

The US has all the lumber it needs for domestic needs, BTW.

[Ferretlover]

The thing that makes me nervous about the loss of trees and forests is the affect it is having on our atmosphere.
We NEED those trees for oxygen!
No-one, nowhere should be allowed to cut down a living tree without immediately planting at least one to replace the loss!

[FoolYap]

I didn't say we aren't part of the problem. We are, big time.

It's the addition of Chindia to the wrecking machine that is pushing the world over the edge, though.

Another way to say it might be, "It's the export of the American style of life to several billion formerly dirt-poor humans" that is pushing the world over the edge.

I don't disagree that "Chindia"'s growth is a problem. I'm putting more of the blame squarely on us in the First World, that's all. We gave them something to desire to emulate. If we can't get ourselves in a place worthy of emulating, I don't think we can throw too many stones at them.

--Steve

[Plantagenet]

"It's the export of the American style of life to several billion formerly dirt-poor humans" that is pushing the world over the edge.

I don't disagree that "Chindia"'s growth is a problem. I'm putting more of the blame squarely on us in the First World, that's all. We gave them something to desire to emulate. If we can't get ourselves in a place worthy of emulating, I don't think we can throw too many stones at them.

--Steve

Its nutty to blame the US for the misdeeds of China.

China, not the US, is involved in destroying the forests of Siberia.

China, not the US, is involved in propping up the genocidal regime in Sudan and paying for its butchery in Darfur.

China, not the US, invaded Tibet and destroyed its culture and murdered and exiled its leaders and is still occupying and suppressing the Tibetans today.

[FreakOil]

I didn't say we aren't part of the problem. We are, big time.

It's the addition of Chindia to the wrecking machine that is pushing the world over the edge, though.

The US has all the lumber it needs for domestic needs, BTW.

We export a lot of that lumber to China to make, among other things, skateboards. Canadian Maple, which also grows in the northeast U.S., is the only wood you can make them from because it's strong and flexible. A lot more wood is cut down to make other things like furniture, but the fact that beautiful Canadian Maples are cut down so some dumb teenager can break his neck, that just illustrates how messed up our economic system really is. Trees have no value.

Ditto that. Rampant consumerism in the West is why China is a "problem". Without the likes of WalMart, and the shoppers therein, China would still largely be a nation of poor farmers rather than a nation of poor wage-slaves helping to turn the world into cheap crap for us to buy.

Definitely. I agree with this statement, but there's one little flaw. Most Chinese are still dirt poor farmers. What about the hundreds of millions of farmers? All of them were fully organic until the 1980s, and a lot of them still are. Some 13% of the world's organically farmed land is in China, yet China only has 8% of the world's agricultural land.

And another thing to mention, perhaps the most important thing of all. Foreign-owned enterprises account for 60% of China's exports. Foreigners are using China as a base to produce goods for consumption all over the world.

[gnm]

No-one, nowhere should be allowed to cut down a living tree without immediately planting at least one to replace the loss!

I'll have to counter that... I live in an area that is hideously overgrown from decades of fire suppression. Sickly pines crowded less than a foot apart in places. I've cleared hundreds, leaving the healthiest in a bunch alone... Its really amazing how much better the forest is after that. The remaining tree puts on new growth like crazy, ground cover returns in variety, and the tree begins producing pine nuts again.

OOHHHHHHH, I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK......



-G

[FreakOil]

China, not the US, invaded Tibet and destroyed its culture and murdered and exiled its leaders and is still occupying and suppressing the Tibetans today.

I'm all for Tibetan independence, and nattional self-determination in general. But what's this obession with Tibet? I've been hearing "Free Tibet" for years. What about Chechnya? What about the Karen? What about other oppressed minorities in other parts of the world? Why do people like Tibet so much? Is it the whole mystical Buddhist thing?

[Byron100]

I wish I had a magic button that would make China wink out of existence. I swear I'd push it.

China has become the keystone in the archway leading to doom.

After a certain point, now well within sight, there will be very little left to be said, or done.

I wanna push that button with ya...as I certainly agree with you a 100%.

This is yet another reason to hope for a bone-crushing depression here in the States and Europe...without their export markets, China would go into absolute meltdown, with internal strife tearing that country apart into little tiny pieces. Let's hope this happens before it really is too late....

[ekaggata]

There is something deeply odious about Westerners' developing hatred of the Chinese.
I'll say no more than that.

On Siberia and China, yes, this kind of thing is more than inevitable, sadly. Siberia is an enormous and largely untapped resource. The only good thing is that it is so unimaginably huge and difficult to access, so the process will take an enormous amount of time to really start to have an effect.

[FreakOil]

I wish I had a magic button that would make China wink out of existence. I swear I'd push it.

China has become the keystone in the archway leading to doom.

After a certain point, now well within sight, there will be very little left to be said, or done.

I wanna push that button with ya...as I certainly agree with you a 100%.

This is yet another reason to hope for a bone-crushing depression here in the States and Europe...without their export markets, China would go into absolute meltdown, with internal strife tearing that country apart into little tiny pieces. Let's hope this happens before it really is too late....

I don't want that to happen, for obvious reasons, but I know it is going to happen sooner or later. The sooner, the better for the planet. I don't want industrial civilization to be dragged out. The damage would only get worse.

That's an interesting point about internal strife. I wanted to mention that because a lot of people have this image of China as this homogenous, monolithic country, but it isn't. There is a lot of tension - between classes, between regions.

China has hundreds of languages and 50 minorities. Among the Han themselves, there are many prejudices. Factories in one region won't hire workers from another region, some say that people from this region are liars or people from that region are lazy. This place could easily tear apart.

[Heineken]

I didn't say we aren't part of the problem. We are, big time.

It's the addition of Chindia to the wrecking machine that is pushing the world over the edge, though.

Another way to say it might be, "It's the export of the American style of life to several billion formerly dirt-poor humans" that is pushing the world over the edge.

I don't disagree that "Chindia"'s growth is a problem. I'm putting more of the blame squarely on us in the First World, that's all. We gave them something to desire to emulate. If we can't get ourselves in a place worthy of emulating, I don't think we can throw too many stones at them.

--Steve

I think Chindia bears most of the blame, for foolishly emulating us when they knew full well that doing so would have disastrous consequences.

Chindia has had the knowledge of these consequences which the US lacked during its early industrial development, but it proceeded nonetheless.

Basically, Asian countries don't give the slightest damn about the environment. At least the US has some measure of caring.

[FoolYap]

I think Chindia bears most of the blame, for foolishly emulating us when they knew full well that doing so would have disastrous consequences.

But they don't know it. We don't even know it. Most Americans are clueless. Most Chinese are clueless. Most people are clueless. Do you really think the average Chinese government official is much "clue-ier" than ours?

Meanwhile, we set a grand example for them: Buy, buy, buy, and look at how much fun we've been having! The big house with the three-car garage, with the three cars, and air-conditioning, and meat on the table every night, and fast-food, and cheap trinkets, and cruises and fly-aways to fun places on vacation.

You're telling me the Chinese and Indians aren't supposed to want some of that? You're telling me they're supposed to have the restraint that we don't? Why? So that Americans can continue partying?

Chinese and Indians are just like any humans anywhere: They're short-sighted and they don't care about what they can't see, unless it hits them directly in their standard of living.

Basically, Asian countries don't give the slightest damn about the environment. At least the US has some measure of caring.

Not really. Look at what's happening in Appalachia. "Mountain-top removal", anyone? Where's our "clean coal" technology? We can't give a crap enough about global warming to do anything about curbing greenhouse gas emissions, because -- God forbid! -- that might "add costs" to our industry and lifestyles.

If we've been able to enforce some basic standards in air & water quality, it's only because we're wealthy enough to pay a pittance more for stuff to make it happen.

Plus, let's not underestimate the amount of dirty smokestack industries we've sent overseas to Chindia. We get to consume while they get the industrial effluents. Kinda disingenuous of us to shake our finger at them for not cleaning up better, I think. Yes, their environmental record is shameful. So was ours a century+ ago, when our industrial economy was in roughly the same place as theirs is now.

I know why you're angry about this, I really do. I personally think we're doomed, and an ecological crash is coming. I wish it were otherwise.

But I'm not going to wish Chindia to go away. They are the enemy, we are the enemy.

--Steve

[Byron100]

Just a couple of extra thoughts....we really need to place the blame on those greedy capitalists *everywhere* for the mess we're in now. They're the ones that built those horrid, polluting, soul-sapping factories to begin with...England in the early 1800's, America less than a century later and then on to China and India, while the "marketers" extol those of us with money and even those without (debt) to buy without end. The more we buy, the more we want...this has been the story since the great mistake of the Industrial Revolution began.

None of this will end, in any country, until we're forced to give up our materialistic ways and learn how to live life in a sustainable way. The part that gets to me is that all this is going to result in such unimaginable hardship and destruction, not only of ourselves, but also of our environment. Just like my daddy said to me once, when I was a baddie and was to receive a spanking: "want it now, or you want it later?" I said give it to me now, as I knew that the waiting is worse than the spanking itself. Same thing with the end of industrial civilization...so bring it on, already.

[mos6507]

China is the only country that has implemented population controls. Maybe too little too late, but they did it. So I give them credit for that. But they can not keep being the manufacturer for the world. They will not be able to gather enough energy for that and even if they did, they are already destroying their environment in the wink of an eye.

[Ferretlover]

I'll have to counter that... I live in an area that is hideously overgrown from decades of fire suppression. Sickly pines crowded less than a foot apart in places. I've cleared hundreds, leaving the healthiest in a bunch alone... Its really amazing how much better the forest is after that. The remaining tree puts on new growth like crazy, ground cover returns in variety, and the tree begins producing pine nuts again.
OOHHHHHHH, I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK......
-G

Oh, gnm, you know perfectly well what I mean!
I have seen pictures of areas that are... reborn?... sometime after a fire has been through the area. It generally looks quite lucious. But, I've also seen pictures of areas of erosion where the flora was not properly maintained.
What happens to all those sickly things people cut down? Are they chipped and turned back into the ground to increase the speed with which the nutrients can be reincorporated into the soil faster? Or, just left to rot?
I don't mean to suggest that another tree is planted in the exact same spot. But, IMHO, it certainly would help if there was more interest and action in helping the soil to improve, the flora to thrive in a healthier way, and getting rid of the CO2 in the atmosphere.
As the species best able to do those things, we should be (and should have been) doing that for both farmland and wilderness.

[gnm]

What happens to all those sickly things people cut down? Are they chipped and turned back into the ground to increase the speed with which the nutrients can be reincorporated into the soil faster? Or, just left to rot?
I don't mean to suggest that another tree is planted in the exact same spot. But, IMHO, it certainly would help if there was more interest and action in helping the soil to improve, the flora to thrive in a healthier way, and getting rid of the CO2 in the atmosphere.
As the species best able to do those things, we should be (and should have been) doing that for both farmland and wilderness.

But it gave me an in for the lumberjack song!

Some people around my area just chip them. You can't really let them rot - way too much slash and fire danger....

I use the large diameter chunks for erosion control - I bury half way under perpendicular on the slope. Great for attracting our type of wood ants=beneficial - and fungus grows on em. The smaller stuff I cut up for firewood and the slash I either burn or chip and spread.

-G

[seldom_seen]

There is something deeply odious about Westerners' developing hatred of the Chinese.

Eat me. China hates us, and they don't try to hide it. So fck'em.

Siberia is an enormous and largely untapped resource. The only good thing is that it is so unimaginably huge and difficult to access, so the process will take an enormous amount of time to really start to have an effect.

Uh, sorry to burst your bubble. The logging of Siberia has been going on since the 1950's by Russians. The Asians moved in with their industrial machines in the 80s to rapidly accelerate the destruction of these forests.

There are currently only about 400-500 Siberian Tigers remaining in the wilds of Russian Siberia (with next to none in China).

The dude who runs housingpanic has a nice little rant on the chinese :)

I hope the people of California do something historic as China's disastrous Olympic Torch Thug Tour invades the western United States. The Thugs in Blue should not be allowed in, or out of, San Fran tomorrow. There should be rage in the streets.

I have nothing against the Chinese people, except their wimpishness for not rising up and jailing their leaders sooner. This rant and my rage is targeted at the evil and corrupt communists running the joint.

So to get Wednesday's San Fran party started, and to rub salt in their wounds, let's recap how f*cked China's government is today:

1) You traded your crap for trillions of US dollars that are getting more and more worthless every day

2) You're evil "let's kill all the girl babies" policy has put in place an epic demographic timebomb that no matter what happens in the world over the next 50 years, you're f*cked

3) Your Propaganda Olympics has blown up in your face something fierce, as you are mocked and repulsed around the world, and your Olympic dream has been destroyed.

4) The "China" brand has been permanently destroyed. Might as well rename the country at this point. "Made in China" now means "Made by Evil Communists"

5) Your US distribution channel (known as "Wal-Mart" to the masses) has also had its brand soiled. And its most loyal US customer base, the illegal and now jobless invaders from Mexico, are heading home in droves, leaving just the dwindling dregs of unpatriotic and self-centered to buy your not-so-cheap-anymore crap

6) Your investment in Blackstone blew up in your face. Welcome to capitalism comrades.

7) The Rice Riots of 2009 are just around the corner

8) In the next few years most of you will be killed or jailed by your fellow citizens, and your ill-gotten gains seized

9) Americans will finally come to realize that you caused the Great Housing Bubble and Crash by manipulating your currency and artificially keeping long term US interest rates low by buying up US t-bills. And they'll be pissed

10) Your out of control pollution and contribution to global warming will end up killing you in the end no matter what else happens

Enjoy tomorrow you corrupt communist pigs!

http://housingpanic.blogspot.com/

[Heineken]

I agree with Seldom Seen.

There is really no defense possible of China. It stinks from top to bottom. It's a fast-expanding nightmare verging on "Soylent Green." And no, I haven't been there, thank God. But I've read enough reports by people who have.

I bet China's "one-child" policy (which largely failed) had everything to do with politics and control and nothing to do with environmental concerns.

I give China credit, though, for making me feel a bit more patriotic about my own country, notwithstanding all its sins.