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PeakOil is You

Dentistry

Discussions related to the physiological and psychological effects of peak oil on our members and future generations.

Re: Peak Oil and Dentistry

Unread postby steam_cannon » Thu 26 Jul 2007, 03:54:53

SILENTTODD wrote:Of course in his day his services mostly consisted of yanking out abscess teeth in the most expedient way possible.
Nothing wrong with that. I've had tooth pain bad enough, that I know it can get tempting to rip the tooth out yourself. If there's nothing else that can be done, that's at least something...

-------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the book "Where There Is No Dentist "

Amusingly, you could even go to Ebay and get most of what you need to do your own dental work.
(Not that I'm recommending this...)

Ebay - dental drill
* Foot Powered Dental Drill, Unused Military Surplus, BOX
* NEW-SUPERPRO DRILL FOR DENTAL/WOODCARV/NAIL/ESPERT-STYL
* VINTAGE DENTAL DRILL - S.S. WHITE
* Vintage Dental drills, instruments - Lot of 100 pieces
* Nobel Biocare Dental Implant Drill Kit & More! NEW!!

Ebay - dental bur
* Dental Lab Gold Titanium Nitrate Carbide Lathe Bur Burr
* S.S. WHITE CARBIDE DENTAL BURS FG RA HUGE LOT 230

Ebay - dental composite
* Kerr Dental Premise Nano Composite Unidose A2 Body
* Kerr Dental - Premise Nano Composite Syringe B1 Body
* Dental Composite, Glass Ionomer Cement Composite Tips
* 3M ESPE Filtek Supreme Composite Resin A2 Dental Supply
* Dental Centrix Brasseler Composite Polishing Mandrels

Ebay - dental amalgam
* Kerr Contour Alloy/Amalgam 2 Spill 50 caps, Dental
* Dental DDS 500 pc. 2 spill Tytin Amalgams Amalgam NR
* Amalgam Condenser Black 0/1 Serrate 099-1002 IDS DENTAL

Ebay - Amalgamator
* Dental Amalgamator Kerr Optimix model 100
* Caulk Vari-Mix II 2 Dental Amalgamator
* old Crescent Dental "Wiggle Bug" Amalgamator

-------------------------------------------------------------

However, whatever you do, you can certainly use temparin to temporarily fill in a large cavity or lost filling...

Ebay - temparin
* DenTek Temparin Filling Material One Step
* DENTEK TEMPARIN FILLING STICK TOOTHACHE HELP

Temparin is very useful stuff...

-------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding pain relief, something I keep around the house is benzocaine and clove oil for tooth pain...

Clove Oil
"It is a strong germicide, a powerful antiseptic, a feeble local anaesthetic applied to decayed teeth..."
http://botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/c/cloves76.html

Also for amusement, I'm researching Lidocaine 2% ampules. Lidocaine is used to numb teeth before drilling and Lidocaine is used in many over the counter products. It looks like you can order the ampules so I think for amusement I'm going to research the legality of ordering it in different states and post the results.

Note: There is updated information below regarding Novacaine and antibiotics, useful for dentistry in extreme circumstances.
Last edited by steam_cannon on Sun 29 Jul 2007, 21:28:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Peak Oil and Dentistry

Unread postby oiless » Thu 26 Jul 2007, 10:13:28

I'm 41, I've never had problems with my teeth. I don't know what a tooth ache is like. I've been to the dentist twice in my life, for check-ups/cleaning, the first time when I was 18, again in my early thirties. (No people, my breath doesn't stink, my teeth are not green. I brush with baking soda or salt, or sometimes a fluroide-free paste.)
Neither of my parents had good teeth.
My secret (I think), I never became addicted to sugar. I eat sweets as an occasional treat, I don't like pop much, and most fruit don't do much for me, although I do like an apple most days.
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Re: Peak Oil and Dentistry

Unread postby steam_cannon » Thu 26 Jul 2007, 11:19:15

oiless wrote:I don't know what a tooth ache is like.
I'd describe it as being like mild to intense bone pain. Kind of like how my foot feels right now... :P

oiless wrote:My secret (I think), I never became addicted to sugar.
That's the way to do it!

I wonder, perhaps if dentists want to stay in business in the future, they will start handing out sugary pastries... Seriously, dentists don't tell people at every visit to avoid sugars or use sugars like xylitol. I don't know for sure, but I always get the impression dentists want to keep their job filling teeth. Preventing problems doesn't pay.
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Re: Peak Oil and Dentistry

Unread postby thuja » Sat 28 Jul 2007, 15:38:51

Man you people who think that not having modern dentistry will be easy are seriously deluded. I have three words to say to you...

Pain meds. Drill.

Yes hopefully we will have the power to get those drills cranking up to a super high speed but if we don't, drilling a cavity will take a really long time. And while you're waiting, let's hope you stocked up on some percoset for that excruciating pain- it might get really hard to find in the future.

I lived in Thailand as a young child and I remember what they used for dentistry- a foot pumped drill. People would get drunk on Mekong whiskey to get ready for any dental work. And you thought going to the dentist sucked now...
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Re: Peak Oil and Dentistry

Unread postby Heineken » Sat 28 Jul 2007, 22:42:04

I've had teeth drilled without novocaine or other anesthesia, and so has my mother. Certainly it stings sharply, but it's not unbearable if the dentist is willing to "pace" the drilling and give the patient a chance to catch his breath.

A topical anesthetic could be applied to the hole periodically, if necessary. That would help, as would booze or cocaine (especially topical cocaine).

There's plenty of room for basic dentistry to continue to operate in a low-tech, low-energy, constrained-resource future.
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Re: Peak Oil and Dentistry

Unread postby thuja » Sat 28 Jul 2007, 22:54:49

How about a root canal? Or tooth extraction? How about removing all the teeth and putting in dentures?

Ummm...I'll take modern dentistry as long as I can get it...
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Re: Peak Oil and Dentistry

Unread postby Heineken » Sat 28 Jul 2007, 23:11:33

A root canal isn't necessary if the tooth is pulled. And believe me, Thuja, teeth have been pulled for thousands of years. And George Washington had dentures!

Booze can be surprisingly effective. You get really drunk and hardly know what's being done to you.

Obviously there are limits, but that's the whole point. The future will consist of the return of limits. All I'm saying is that a good bit of basic (as opposed to fancy) dentistry will continue to be able to operate within those limits. I'm not welcoming the awful changes that are coming, I'm simply acknowledging them.

Will the post-Collapse dentists be vacationing in Majorca and driving around in Mercedes Benzes? Obviously not.
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Re: Peak Oil and Dentistry

Unread postby ushoys » Sun 29 Jul 2007, 17:22:00

"There is a deafening silence from the world of dentistry on the subject of Peak Oil"

LOL! The world of podiatrists is pretty quiet about it too.
Last edited by ushoys on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 21:41:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Peak Oil and Dentistry

Unread postby Heineken » Sun 29 Jul 2007, 21:47:31

Most medical specialties, and their overpaid, often conceited practitioners, are going to disappear. The emphasis on living forever will be replaced by an emphasis on fixing broken bones, that sort of thing.
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Re: Peak Oil and Dentistry

Unread postby steam_cannon » Sun 29 Jul 2007, 23:13:51

More about dental pain relief options

The book "Where There Is No Dentist" was mentioned earlier, Chapter 9 deals with pain relief using injectable anesthetics. However that begs the question how do you get injectable anesthetics supplies and is it legal? Since this is a board for Americans and people living in other countries, I will try to outline legal possibilities in different countries.

Of course nothing in the following should be taken as legal advice. Check your local laws to determine the situation for your area.

Internationally, in most countries local anesthetics like lidocaine are simply available without a prescription. For example, in Ukraine going to a doctor is free and fairly easy. So people go to a doctor to see what medication they need and then pick it out at the pharmacy. And if they need refills or already know what they need, they can just go to the pharmacy and get it. In contrast the American pharmacy system is locked. So if an American thinks they need a prescription they must pay insurance fees, doctor fees and then finally for the prescription. This system keeps people using the pay as you go health care system, but it makes it difficult to keep stocks of things in case the pharmacy runs out. Mexico also has a much more open pharmacy system then the US.

So if you live in a country outside of the US, stocking dental anesthetics may not be a problem. Like in Ukraine hospitals, where it is a common practice to have the patient buy supplies beforehand at the pharmacy.

In the US, buying local anesthetics in the US is more difficult then other countries.

One of the reasons for this is the cocaine trade in the US. Cocaine is illegal in the US and should not be used as an anesthetic. It's distribution is not a regulated industry, quality varies. And american street thugs will often "improve" a batch of low quality cocaine by mixing in Lidocaine so the drug tastes better. And so probably because of American street thugs, Lidocaine anesthetic is difficult to purchase without a veterinary prescription, dental prescription or licensing. Amusingly, street thugs are more likely to use over the counter lidocaine products that require no license... So Americans may have made the wrong product illegal or perhaps they have other reasons for restricting purchase... But non the less, you do have to abide by the law if you live in this country.

So one legal approach would be to get a prescription. If you work with animals, you may need to anesthetize a leg wound to clean and treat the injury. Also, if you are leading a team to map remote terrain in Alaska and you are experienced in giving shots, you may be able to get a prescription in case you need to pull a tooth or more commonly to put in sutures. Lidocaine gel is available without a prescription and is an excellent addition to a suture kit. However local anesthetics could be an even better addition (as long as you know how to use them).

There may be dentists or veterinarians on this board who would sign a veterinary or dental prescription for storing a small amount of Xylocaine or other brands of Lidocaine based anesthetics. These products are useful for wound care and dental purposes "Where There Is No Dentist". Of course these people and any veterinarian(for example) would probably be more inclined to provide you with a prescription if you have training in firstaid, suturing and wound care, phlebotomy, veterinary studies or dental studies. So if you are someone who can show you have a clear need for anesthetics and know how to properly use them, you should still be able to get access to these materials in the US.

Alternatively, there are still more options. I can't really suggest anyone do this, but if you are a veterinarian you can use your own discretion. Roccland opened an interesting thread on "Penicillin G Procaine", a stable and easy to get farm antibiotic which contains the anesthetic procaine, better known as novacaine. The Novacaine component and the penicillin don't stay mixed. And apparently a few old veterinarians have been in the situation where they have used the clear separated out novacaine in this product as an anesthetic for animals. And of course "Penicillin G Procaine" is useful for treating infections, for animals.
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic31044-0-asc-15.html

However, could and should medicines for farm animals be used for people in a difficult situation, such as during a war or in the absence of regular services(like in the aftermath of Katrina)? That is a legal and ethical question I leave to you.
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Re: Peak Oil and Dentistry

Unread postby Roccland » Sun 29 Jul 2007, 23:27:08

Another excellent post Mike.

You posted this:

Lidocaine gel is available without a prescription and is an excellent addition to a suture kit.


That got me thinking...and I am sure it is here on PO.com...where is a good source for an all around solid baseline first aid/dental/burn kit.

I have cobbled a fairly extensive one together, but I had a hard time just finding the basics...not cheap stuff, but good quality high end parametic grade supplies.

Any ideas?

Don't mean to thread jack, but after having a tooth pulled out of my head 3 weeks ago I have been thinking about heath/pain/meds quite a bit lately.
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Re: Peak Oil and Dentistry

Unread postby steam_cannon » Mon 30 Jul 2007, 03:50:53

Roccland wrote:Another excellent post Mike.
Thanks, compliments are always welcome! :-D

Roccland wrote:That got me thinking...and I am sure it is here on PO.com...where is a good source for an all around solid baseline first aid/dental/burn kit.

I have cobbled a fairly extensive one together, but I had a hard time just finding the basics...not cheap stuff, but good quality high end paramedic grade supplies.

Any ideas?
My medical kit has materials for dealing with dental emergencies, so it relates. And I did the same as you did and cobbled together my own. Here are the items that relate to dental care:

* Tooth pain treatments - Benzacaine Oragel is very useful. If someone has tooth pain from a broken tooth or injured gum.

* Tooth filling material - When fillings fall out or crowns come off, some cheap tooth filling material like Temparin from walmart is very useful and takes hardly more room then a tooth.

* Dental Floss - Great for getting out seeds stuck between teeth and useful for tying things.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I posted a longer reply here.

Emergency Kits
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic10006-0-asc-90.html
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Re: Peak Oil and Dentistry

Unread postby steam_cannon » Mon 30 Jul 2007, 13:14:54

A general pain relief option that is legal in the US

Poppy Tea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppy_tea

I certainly can't suggest anything illegal for Americans, but I can still suggest poppy tea. Poppy seeds in a bagel will falsely set off drug tests at work, Mythbusters proved this in one of their episodes. However, if you are not subject to drug tests, poppy tea is available in the US and has analgesic properties depending on how many poppy seeds are used(poppy seeds are available by the pound). And in the US poppy seeds are both legal to possess and use in teas. Also note, to make a good quality infusion, bulk supplies of seeds should be mixed to ensure consistent quality.

And when TSHTF, with all those poppy seeds perhaps you could become a poppy warlord! Hahaha I'm joking. :lol:
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Re: Peak Oil and Dentistry

Unread postby Golgo13 » Wed 15 Aug 2007, 05:39:57

steam_cannon wrote:Ebay - dental amalgam


Ah yes, good ol' mercury. The third most toxic substance to science. When it's shipped to the dentist, it has a skull and crossbones and arrives as hazardous material. When it's in your mouth it is "safe". When it's removed, it becomes unsafe, highly toxic poison which releases toxic vapors at body temperatures and is unfit for even a landfill.

Smoking Teeth = Poison Gas

Quecksilber: The Strange Story of Dental Amalgam.

I've got 4 in my mouth poisoning me right now as I type this out.
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Re: Peak Oil and Dentistry

Unread postby Plains » Tue 21 Aug 2007, 00:20:15

Dude me too. I'm saving to get layered composites if I can before the recession.

Another thing--dentists function somewhere around 10-15% lower than the norm when it comes to coordination, memory, and other basic things, due to their mercury exposure.
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Dentistry - destroying the health of the population

Unread postby dukey » Tue 24 Jun 2008, 22:03:21

So .. you got a hole in your tooth because you eat too much sugar crap. And they fill it with amalgam. Amalgam doesn't chemically bond to your tooth, so they need to drill out a giant wedge shape into your tooth, weakening it, so the filling can stay there. Great !

Amalgam is usually a cocktail of metals combined with mercury (50% mercury content). Mercury in extremely toxic even in very small doses, and in larger doses can be fatal. But the mercury in the fillings is stable right ? Well no, they leak, constantly, not small amounts either.

[flash width=425 height=344]http://www.youtube.com/v/9ylnQ-T7oiA&hl=en[/flash]

Chuck in 10 amalgam fillings into someone's mouth and that's gonna start having a major effect on someone's health. But the nightmare doesn't stop there with simply the toxicity of the metal. You can also be allergic to the metal. You see the metal ions can bind to your own bodies proteins. The body sometimes then recognises cells with metals ions bound to them as foreign, and so attacks them. Then you get arthritis, or for people with CFS often get encephalitis of the brain. Or some other auto immune disease. It's not just the mercury in the fillings which can do this, it's any of the cocktail of metals in there that eventually leak out. Even gold fillings are not safe. Gold is a very soft metal, so they mix it with others to make it stronger.

Theres science behind this as well.
Check this for example

A study published in 2004 examines the health impact of amalgam replacement in mercury-allergic patients with autoimmunity. The patients, who suffered from different autoimmune diseases, were selected on the basis of an existing allergy to mercury (diagnosed with MELISA® testing) and also that they had amalgam fillings as the single restorative material in their teeth. The amalgam was replaced with composites and ceramic materials. Half a year later, MELISA® was re-done to see if there had been any change in the original positive response. Also, the heath status was measured by objective tests and the patient's gave a subjective opinion on whether their health had improved. Download the full article (pdf).

The results showed that the in vitro reactivity after the replacement of amalgam decreased significantly to inorganic mercury, silver, organic mercury and lead. Out of 35 patients, 71% showed improvement of health. The remaining patients exhibited either unchanged health or worsening of symptoms. Interestingly enough, their responses to mercury didn't decrease - which suggests that there exists a different source of exposure than amalgam. Patients with multiple sclerosis observed the highest rate of improvement while the lowest rate was noted in patients with eczema.


http://www.melisa.org/ms-multiple-sclerosis.php

(One of my family members got all her amalgam fillings taken out, and basically has seen a dramatic improvement in her chronic illness. So this is pretty personal for me and my family. )

If that wasn't bad enough, what if the tooth then dies. Ah yes, root canal. Root canal is safe right ? Well .. err, no.

Root canal is done exactly the same way as it was done, 100 years ago, same material to seal it gutta percha, same technique etc. Anyway the guy that was described as the greatest dentist of all time undertook a massive 20 year research program in about the 20's to investigate the safety of root canal teeth. What did he find ? Root canal teeth can cause chronic disease.

So here's some pics from colgate.com showing how they do root canal

Image
Image
Image

Ah right cool, but wait. How do you seal off the lateral canals at the bottom ? Err .. you can't, best to forget about those.

And err, what about the dentin ? the hart part of the tooth under the enamel ? How do you fill that ?

Image

err, you can't. It's impossible, it's also impossible to sterilise them. So you've created a space for billions of bacteria to live, and the immune system can't get to them, and the toxins from the root canal teeth can defuse out of the surface of the tooth, into the ligaments and into your jaw, causing major disease.

You can find out about dr price's work on root canal teeth by looking here
http://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james34.htm
or just using joogle.

(I had a root canal tooth removed 5 months ago, it caused no pain no swelling, really it felt fine, looked perfect on x-ray, but when the dentist took it out all the bone around it was mush. It had been there 15 years, it was having a pretty devastating effect on my health.)

Okay, so root canal is a bad idea. Just get the tooth pulled right ? Well err no. You see when you pull a tooth, the majority of the time it never heals properly because the ligaments aren't removed, what happens is bone grows over the top leaving an actual hole in your jaw bone, called a cavitation. Heres some sexy pics.

Looks normal right ?
Image
Okay let's dive in.
Image
err what's going on.
Image

Uh oh, we have uncovered a toxic hole. Anaerobic bacteria are always present in cavitations. The toxins from these bacteria are extremely toxic and damaging to you. These toxins slowly leech out into your blood stream.

So what are the chances of getting a cavitation ?
According to
Journal of Advancement in Medicine
Volume 9, Number 4, Winter 1996
© 1996 Human Sciences Press, Inc.


the chances are ..

The most commonly extracted teeth, the third molars ("wisdom teeth"), produced CVs that were found by clinical exploration in 313 out of 354 extraction sites (88%). Cavitations were found in 35 of 50 second molar extraction sites (70%), and for first molars, 60 of 73 extraction sites showed CVs (82%). They were found in 441 of the total number of 517 molar extraction sites explored (85%). For the maxillary non-molars, CVs were found in 72 of 123 extraction sites (58%), and for mandibular non-molars, 23 of 51 extraction sites were affected (45%). For all non-molars, the CV rate was 55%, representing 95 of 174 extraction sites. The overall CV rate, regardless of site, was 77% (536 out of 691 extraction sites) (Figure 3). Smaller CVs could have been missed, making these percentages conservative.


You can read the research paper on this here. It really is an excellent read. How do you avoid this nightmare ? Well when you get a tooth extracted, just make sure the ligaments are properly removed, so the bone can heal, it's not rocket science, but your average retard dentist probably won't have ever even heard of cavitations, even tho most people probably have 1 or a lot more.

So, how much toxic crap do you have in your jaw ? Just because you have a load of amalgam fillings or even root canal doesn't mean you will get sick. Just like smoking 10 cigarettes a day doesn't make most people chronically ill, but they will have a weaker immune system because it has to deal with a greater toxic load. But really, root canal, cavitations and mercury can really destroy your health completely if you aren't careful.

DON'T LET YOUR LOCAL CLUELESS DENTIST BUTCHER YOU !!! DON'T DO IT !!!!
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Re: Dentistry - destroying the health of the population

Unread postby jupiters_release » Wed 25 Jun 2008, 00:14:16

Dukey,

I was not aware of cavitations before! I had all four of my wisdom pulled when I was 17, and according to their studies I have an 88% probability of having these anaerobic bacteria infections similar to "blood soaked sawdust" and "green fatty globules" lurking in my gums.

And the only way to find out for sure is to have my mucosa drilled open? :shock:

Are there holistic dental surgeons that specialize in this? I'm having flashbacks to my pre-amalgam removal days lol.

Thanks for bringing attention to this.

JR
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Re: Dentistry - destroying the health of the population

Unread postby Ainan » Wed 25 Jun 2008, 03:14:45

My mother works in dentistry. Two of the best things you can use on your teeth are an electric toothbrush and dental floss. The type of toothpaste is not that important apparently, but brushing every morning, evening and after every meal is very important.

Of course every dentist seems to say something different :roll: Brushing after every meal (even without toothpaste) is the best way to avoid a trip to the [s]blacksmiths[/s] dentists.
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Re: Dentistry - destroying the health of the population

Unread postby Micki » Wed 25 Jun 2008, 03:30:05

The metals can result in a range of symptoms. I remember in Sweden there was a long debate whether it was a real problem or just psycosomatic. The Swedish name for the problem was Oral Galvanism, not sure if it has a similar name in English.

You however shouldn't leave holes untreated either as these can result in infections and actually can kill you.

Not to mention anger problems that having tooth ache can lead to. I read some historical stories about kings for instance suffering day in day out of toth ache for months and this put them in very nasty mood.

So what are the alternatives to having teeth pulled out?

Nowadays at least (for last several years what I know) you don't seem to get amalgam as filling. (Or is it different in different countries?) Like my last holes, they have some white filling that blends in with the teeth. I haven't asked the dentist what it is but is sure doesn't look like metal.
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Re: Dentistry - destroying the health of the population

Unread postby hope_full » Wed 25 Jun 2008, 06:03:01

Maybe amalgam is like everything else: Some people can use it for years and years and suffer no ill effects. I have more fillings than most and got them earlier than most (starting at 10) and I am in extraordinarily good health (at age 50).

I also have two root canals and crowns and most mornings, I wake up and thank GOD for modern dentistry. While I have great health, I don't have great teeth. I've always thought it'd be fun to live in another time and place but the idea of having to deal with untreatable dental abscesses gives me the heebie jeebies. If I were living 150 years ago, I'd be missing most of my teeth by now (if I had the good fortune to still be alive at this age).

Life is about compromises and the quality of my life has been greatly improved by modern dentistry. Back in the day, people committed suicide rather than endure the pain of toothache and abscess and if they didn't commit suicide, the abscess had the potential to kill.

HF
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