[EnergySpin]

From an evolutionary standpoint, isn't the whole point to survive?

What do you think your survival and reproductive instincts serve ? Yourself, your species or life itself ? Did your ancestors survived ? Did the species that preceded humans survived ?

As a species given the gift of intellect, we need to acknowledge our own mortality and put the time we have to good use.

We are but dust. Only life is important.

We are merely carriers of intellect .. who will eventually fade away like tears in the rain. While we live we have to advance understanding and pass it to other humans. Survival of the civilization which is predicated on survival of the species is important. After all .. in the end we are all dead. We can only attain immortality through the future generations (and not just our kids)

[MonteQuest]

Mod note:

Just realized this was from last summer. I wonder if Hydro was really JayHMorrison aka DriveElectric????

I told you.. government regulations protect the planet,

Oh yeah, and...



You haven't got a clue....

[MonteQuest]

Aside from the technical aspects along with the fact we would need to overhaul our entire civilization for this new source of energy, have you considered the consequences of humans truly gaining access to free, limitless, energy?

If we had access to limitless energy, what would stop us from laying the planet bare? I suspect we would consume everything in sight.

Matt,

We think alike. From one of my threads:

In the arena of public discussion the pessimistic camp on the future of oil production is at a certain disadvantage, as people, particularly during good economic times, cannot fathom that storm clouds may be forming. Furthermore, it is generally more difficult to obtain a sympathetic hearing for a worrisome viewpoint than an optimistic one, as belief in progress, both technological and societal, seems to be universal. But I suggest we take it a step further, and take a hard look at what we think we want to happen, and why.

I admit to being an idealist. I would surely like to envision a world powered down to a sustainable level that wouldn't entail a constant crisis management, but realistically, I know it is futile. But, then again, it doesn't detract from the notion that a little backwards is better than more forward. To me, the issue is no longer how to solve the peak-oil energy crisis, but how to cope and live with it.

Now, this should get a response: To me, given our current cultural mindset, the worse thing that could happen would be to find some inexhaustible new source of energy. We would doom the human race to extinction by making the planet uninhabitable through our wanton consumption. Now if we developed fusion and also reverted back to the population of the mid-1800's, did away with the "throw-away" society, recycled and downsized everything, instituted de-centralization, embraced environmental constraints, and generally practiced a conservation ethic, then that would be a good start--even in an entropy world where it all ends anyway.

[EnviroEngr]

The ultracap appers to based in the realities of physics.

mikhail's site gives me very little interest - sorry EE

When someone says something about a magnetic motor, challenge them to show you a non-magnetic (electrical) motor, that is not a diesel or that type of motor. What they might be able to come up with would fit in their hand. The only time I have seen seen magnets used on both sides of the airgap (aside from dual rotor machines - and these airgaps are seperated by the stator) is when used for clutches (recent paper by Canova and Vusini). The people who claim these "perpetual" or whatever they call these pm machines should include the magnet specs, i.e. the type and grade, and something about the magnetic circuit, it might have a chance at being believable. And do they ever talk about the losses inside the magnet, that is the space and time harmonic losses, or the losses due to slotting - these encompass eddy current losses, and then there are hysteresis losses as well... Z. Q. Zhu has some very nice work on magnets and their properties, if you're so inclined, you might be able to find a bit on the net. Yes, it is quite complex, but it isn't misunderstood by those who design these machines for an honest living.

good luck, and take care

Excellent. I'll run this back to him and get him to answer these questions. It's not that the viability of this technology would ever save the Industrial Age from collapse; but it does open up inquiry into realms of endeavor whose importance to the story of humanity is often overlooked.

[abelardlindsay]

I usually refer to Prof. Alfred Everts theoretical work. He neither claims to have a working device nor is he building any prototypes. All he does is laying out a theoretical basis. The statement that I found most interesting is that the second law of thermodynamics only applies in closed systems. And yet this is the stumbling block that hinders most newcommers to the subject to even look down that path .
http://evert.de/indefte.htm

I have been following the whole "free energy" thing for about 10 years now, checking in every 6 months or so to sites like www.keelynet.com, etc. just to see what they're up to. I've seen a lot of diagrams and all kinds of complicated physics theorizing that seems intriguing but I am not a physicist so how should I know whether it's all B.S or not. For all I've seen this whole discipline might well be some kind of astrology like pseudoscience. However, when there is a sub $100 toy that does work (e.g spins something around an axle) without requiring any ongoing external input or batteries I'll be a believer. Have the blueprints? Good, go to China and I am sure you can get some toy manufacturer to make it for you for cheap. You can sell it at The Discovery Channel store and make millions!

[abelardlindsay]

BTW, Free Energy News is a pretty regularly updated, though somewhat difficult to navigate, site regarding all the latest greatest claims, hype, etc about free energy for those who care to follow this sort of thing.

[Doly]

The statement that I found most interesting is that the second law of thermodynamics only applies in closed systems.

Albente, that is an ESSENTIAL part of the 2nd law. If you know what the 2nd law is, you know that.

[aldente]

A cousin of mine works for a company that develops and builds power plants. I tried to discuss possibilites of free energy with him in the past and his reaction was not the usual "stay away from me with this kind a crap". His first thought was rather "even if" PM's would be up and running (we're talking Everts concepts) the energy output would be just miniscule.

In other words, one has to become aware first of of the magnitude of the energy output of conventional "hydrocarbon burning" power plants before discussing concepts that go in the direction of replacing them. Sort of the realisation that a third of the surface of the US would need to be covered with solar panels if they were to replace the current energy generating systems.

[Aaron]

4 pages?

Guys... this is embarassing...

At least there's no shortage of ignorance...

[aldente]

.. who will eventually fade away like tears in the rain.

The Blade Runner is one of my all time favorite movies as well...

[aldente]

After all .. in the end we are all dead.

"R" Rated Woman & Skeleton

{better to have options; EE}

[Caoimhan]

Ummm... I have nothing personal against the image in the above post, but I read this forum at work, and I'd rather not risk someone getting offended. Can we keep images on these forums rated "G"?

[MonteQuest]

The statement that I found most interesting is that the second law of thermodynamics only applies in closed systems.

Albente, that is an ESSENTIAL part of the 2nd law. If you know what the 2nd law is, you know that.

The 2nd law applies anytime you transfer energy from one form to another, whether in a closed, open or isolated system. There is always a loss of unusable energy in the form of heat.

What 2nd law says is that in an isolated system (people use closed, but that is wrong) entropy always increases. In open or closed systems entrophy can be halted or reversed, but only with an increase in entropy somewhere else. There are no free lunches in open, closed or isolated systems, period.

[secretT]

what if you were shown a way to generate electricity without oil,natural gas, coal, wind, light , water or nuclear reactions?. how much oil would we save if we needed none of these sources to generate electricity, and the saved oil could be used for other purposes, how much longer would our oil supply last if we eliminated our need to utilize these sources for the generation of electricity?

[EnergySpin]

what if you were shown a way to generate electricity without oil,natural gas, coal, wind, light , water or nuclear reactions?.

Farts?

[Dragoneye]

ok, i know that im bringing this back from the dead, but they added some stuff to their website... (video)

I have been working on developing a motor like this for quite some time, and it does work, its just a matter of what it is that you want out of it... its not a perpetual motion machine but its like a standard motor in a car, it has to be fuled by something, but magnets are alot better at working with than just metalic parts and extremely flamable liquids.

what is it that it would take to prove that a system works for you guys? im not trying to degrade anyone or anything at all. I want to know what it is that would prove the fact that a principal like this can work? is a video good enough? computer model? sure at some point they cant give you all the info on it because then anyone else could build it too....

Let me know what you think, i dont mind answering questions if asked nicely.

I know that their machine does work because i have a version of it here thats working for me. it may not be practical for all uses but it gets the job done... if your looking at perfect practicalism (not sure thats a word) then even a combustion engine isn't the most practical... it still requires lots of maintanaince, and fuel on a consistant basis.

I think its obvious that magnets are the way to go... sure you might have to replace a magnet every year even say... so what its cheaper and easier to work with than rebuilding an engine block (although that is pretty easy to do too)

[Caoimhan]

oh ho, definitly bunk.

Here is a list of thier patent aplications:
http://www.lutec.com.au/patents.htm

Here is the US patent site for looking up applications.

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html

Here is their supposed patent aplication #:
09/831160

Niether "Lutec" nor the patent application # with the US office found any matches.

To be fair, the U.S. Patent search says searches on published applications is only for apps published since March 2001. Their website says their application is dated November 1999.

[Aedo]

It all sounds so good - until you think of those good old Laws of Thermodynamics (as gnm pointed out)! in fact, if you look at the first law - that energy cannot be created or destroyed - it is clear that any device such as this one must either have all the energy it is going to deliver "manufactured in" (in other words it is a battery) or it is a fraud.

In the case of this magnetic type device the energy it delivers over its life (the life of the magnets) must be input in the production of the magnets. If this device can deliver 1kW per hour for 50 years that is 438MWhr of energy stored in those magnets (I'm impressed).

[Tanada]

It all sounds so good - until you think of those good old Laws of Thermodynamics (as gnm pointed out)! in fact, if you look at the first law - that energy cannot be created or destroyed - it is clear that any device such as this one must either have all the energy it is going to deliver "manufactured in" (in other words it is a battery) or it is a fraud.

In the case of this magnetic type device the energy it delivers over its life (the life of the magnets) must be input in the production of the magnets. If this device can deliver 1kW per hour for 50 years that is 438MWhr of energy stored in those magnets (I'm impressed).

Which naturally begs the question, how long will the 'permanent' magnets actually last if this works even remotely as advertized? Magnetic field effects are a fascinating phenomenon, but it is well known that magnets which are repeatedly exposed to flux line stress break down into non-magnetized materials over time. How much time is a function of the stress and the streangth of the initial field of the magnet.

I think you are right, if this works at all they have discovered a way to release the stored magnetic flux and convert it into AC current. That certainly isn;t a bad thing, but it also isn't free energy. You can manufacture 'permanent' magnets, but to do so you use a high intensity electro-magnetic field and consume power.

[small_steps]

First of all, electric motors are energy conversion devices. This is true if permanent magnets are used or not. At a fundemental level, they convert current to torque (motoring) and torque to current (generating).

If you have two strong magnets, you can feel how the effects of the attraction/ repulsion between them. Safety glasses and gloves should be used if you are actually doing this!
To understand how a motor works, you only need three magnets. Two will emulate the rotor flux of a machine, and the third will act as the flux generated by the stator current. Place two of the magnets on a file cabinet, oven or fridge door, fairly close together, so that the magnets have alternating poles into the fridge (and also toward you). Now hold the third magnet over one of the others(do so tightly as the magnet will want to jump toward or away from the other magnet, and toward the surface of the fridge,etc as a loose magnet may easily damage the paint of the fridge, and the magnet could easily brake into a number of pieces), and slide the magnet you are holding toward the other. What you feel is the effect of changing the angle of the current that is fed to the machine. By moving your hand toward and away from the surface of the fridge, you are emulating the effect of increasing or reducing the current in the winding.
The force that you feel is translated into a moment (torque) as the force acts at a distance of the airgap of the machine.

The permanent magnets that are used in machines provide ONE of the sources of flux, the other is produced by the current. In induction machines, both the stator and rotor are produced by stator current, the stator directly, and the rotor as induced by the change in flux (induced = induction).

The decrease in magnet flux over time is not really a problem (think of the relatively short winding insulation lifetime), as long as the machine is properly designed for the magnet material used (that is the temps and demagnetizing fields that the magnet will be exposed to).