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THE Finland Thread (merged)

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: High School massacre in Jokela, Finland!

Unread postby MrBean » Thu 08 Nov 2007, 07:12:57

americandream wrote:He worshipped Stalin and Hitler!!! Lol...what sort of intellectually challenged specimens are these Finnish schools breeding! Whilst I may be in total agreement with an iron fisted communist order to remedy the abysmal plight we find ourselves in, I certainly do not subscribe to the ideas of boot licking boss's lackey Hitler, nor would Stalin, for all his fauilts.



No he didn't worship Stalin and Hitler, according to his own words.

In his manifesto the now deceaced murderer tries to motivate his action politically, so we can consider this a political murder.

From what I've gathered, his "revolutionary" misanthropic ideology was a fuzzy mixture of individualistic libertarianism, ecofundamentalism and Nietzschean "darwinism".

He also admired the Columbine mass murderers and copycated, so USA does indeed still export something. :-)
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Keuruu, Finland

Unread postby Nicholai » Mon 03 Dec 2007, 12:50:55

So I made the unfortunate decision today of posting my thoughts on Finland on a forum that is 'not peak oil informed'. I'd like you all to check out this place in Finland called Keuruu. It's an ecovillage and it looks very promising. I'm planning to visit in August. Anyone who can give me information on applying for a visa in Finland or what type of permit I would need to stay in the country for, say, a year would be very helpful. I've checked it out extensively and it seems very difficult to enter the country.

Keuruu Ecovillage
Last edited by Ferretlover on Mon 09 Mar 2009, 16:23:23, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged with THE Finland Thread.
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Keuruu, Finland

Unread postby Nicholai » Mon 03 Dec 2007, 13:28:38

So I made the unfortunate decision today of posting my thoughts on Finland on a forum that is 'not peak oil informed'. I'd like you all to check out this place in Finland called Keuruu. It's an ecovillage and it looks very promising. I'm planning to visit in August. Anyone who can give me information on applying for a visa in Finland or what type of permit I would need to stay in the country for, say, a year would be very helpful. I've checked it out extensively and it seems very difficult to enter the country.

Keuruu, Finland
Last edited by Ferretlover on Mon 09 Mar 2009, 16:12:27, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged with THE Finland Thread.
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Re: Keuruu, Finland

Unread postby frankthetank » Mon 03 Dec 2007, 13:47:51

Do you speak the native language? I wouldn't mind emigrating back to Norway, but i don't think they want me back!
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Re: Keuruu, Finland

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 03 Dec 2007, 14:20:31

Ecovillages are often very difficult to join. I can hardly imagine how difficult it would be to join one in a foreign country, especially if you have no skills and don't even speak the language.
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Re: Keuruu, Finland

Unread postby Nicholai » Mon 03 Dec 2007, 14:50:28

Go team! You guys always sound so promising. Cummon.

I spent 2 months in Quebec and I picked up French like nobodies business. You can spend 3 months in Finland without ANY type of permit. After that I can apply for a workers permit until I learn the language and can get my citizenship.

Did you even look at the ecoviallge website? It welcomes all people, and even describes itself as AN INTERNATIONAL ecovillage. I will gladly learn the Finnish language since it's extremely unique and very beautiful, difficult as well, it seems like an interesting challenge.

I figure I could have a good grasp of the language after 8 months to one year if I'm fully immersed.

My Grandpa owns a farm in Athabasca and I worked out there as a kid. My Dad has had me chopping wood since I was in the single digits and even when I had a job at the local lumber yard in -20C, he still considered it "baby work".

I understand the difficulties, but the only other option is to join an ecovillag in southern Alberta that has no river anywhere near it (or major water source). The only water available is a small well and there are 3 acres of arable land. Alberta is going to really dry up within the next 30 years (look into articles by a fellow with the last name Schindler at the University of Alberta if you want to find out) so Finland seems like a reallly prime place to be.

I have a Scandinavian name (in Scandinavian it is Niklas Mikkelson) so I WILL be a foreigner (in that the name is Danish), but I definitely don't look like Sean Paul and, take it from Opies, I can fake any accent to almost a T.

I'm not trying to smooth out my case, just trying to offer perspective and see the responses. Keep them coming.

Oh! PS, I'm good friends with a girl in Finland and her Mom is a member of the Finnish Parliament and works for the Foreign Ministry, that should be helpful, no?
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Re: Keuruu, Finland

Unread postby blukatzen » Mon 03 Dec 2007, 15:17:13

If you can get into the country, will not be a burden on them, well, then, check it out! Build the adventures of your life.

Be respectful of their culture and what they will have to offer you at their place, if you don't agree with what you see, you can always go back home, you are young yet, and are just shaping your life.

Life, even in powerdown, should be an adventure! Go live it!
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Re: Keuruu, Finland

Unread postby frankthetank » Mon 03 Dec 2007, 15:50:00

That would be very helpful. Anytime you have connections it usually helps. Just like getting a good job, just ask the president :) Those countries over there are beautiful, but just seem so foreign to me. I probably could never leave the US, even with all its problems...

Why do you want out of Canada? Quebec is huge... couldn't you just go bug out by James Bay?
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Re: Keuruu, Finland

Unread postby Tuike » Mon 03 Dec 2007, 15:57:38

You should ask the Finnish embassy in the [s]USA[/s] Canada (*, can you stay in Finland.

There was in news here that Finnish ecovillage technology was exported to China.

*) Sorry, I thought AB stood for an american state, but I checked Google Earth it was in Canada
Last edited by Tuike on Mon 03 Dec 2007, 17:49:41, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Keuruu, Finland

Unread postby Andrew_S » Mon 03 Dec 2007, 17:16:41

Nicholai wrote:So I made the unfortunate decision today of posting my thoughts on Finland on a forum that is 'not peak oil informed'.

What did they say?

I doubt whether it's hard for you to get a visa. You probably need to show you have enough cash to support yourself during your stay. Phone the nearest Finnish embassy for info if you don't find it on the internet - I would phone anyway to confirm all the necessary info.
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Re: Keuruu, Finland

Unread postby Micki » Mon 03 Dec 2007, 20:53:51

Most finns speak reasonably good english even if their accent can be outrageous.
No douby they are hospitable but from what I've seen following documentaries on these type of groups, they eventually always end up forming groups instigating against each other, generally bitching alot and struggling for control.
If you try joining them make sure you got a fallback plan if/when you want to get out.
Also, Finnish winters are long... long and dark and summers are full of mosquitos. So make sure you don't mind the climate.
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Re: Keuruu, Finland

Unread postby Nicholai » Mon 03 Dec 2007, 23:55:17

I live in Edmonton, Alberta, so winters usually last between late October until mid April. They are dark and grey, usually hovering around -15C.

I don't want to be in Canada for the simple reason that 90% of our population lives within 100 miles of the American border. Where will 300 million people go when TSHTF that: is sparsely populated, close geographically, filled with resources, speaks the same language, governs with roughly the same laws and are spineless in their countries defense (as shown through the takeover of roughly 13,000 Canadian corporations since NAFTA was signed in the 1980s)

Being close to Russia is Finland's only downside. I'm used to the winters, I can learn and language and there is no reason to why I wouldn't be respectful. I also understand that being an immigrant is entirely economic. If Finland slips into poverty and I happen to be in a major city other than the ecovillage, there is a good chance I will be politely (or not so politely) asked to leave despite my citizenship (my last name is NOT Finnish but Danish so there is a possibility I could be rooted out).

It will be an experience for sure. As for an alternative plan, my friend and his family are likely going to Costa Rica which is a location enjoyed by plenty of ecovillages. This will be my fall back.

Questions, comments.
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Re: Keuruu, Finland

Unread postby Lanthanide » Tue 04 Dec 2007, 05:11:42

So why not just go to Costa Rica? At least you'll know someone there, which could end up counting for more than anything else in the end.
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Re: Keuruu, Finland

Unread postby Fredrik » Tue 04 Dec 2007, 11:39:50

I live in Edmonton, Alberta, so winters usually last between late October until mid April. They are dark and grey, usually hovering around -15C.


In Keuruu, located in Middle Finland, the average winter temperature has been -7 to -10 C during recent decades. Summers are normally relatively cool, 14 to 16 C, but recent summers have been warmer, except this year. GW is estimated to affect Northern latitudes more than others, so the cold probably won't be a problem for you. (I'm more concerned about forests not being able to adapt quickly enough to a rapid warming.)

I don't want to be in Canada for the simple reason that 90% of our population lives within 100 miles of the American border. Where will 300 million people go when TSHTF that: is sparsely populated, close geographically, filled with resources, speaks the same language, governs with roughly the same laws and are spineless in their countries defense (as shown through the takeover of roughly 13,000 Canadian corporations since NAFTA was signed in the 1980s)


By the time the US really needs to attack Canada, if the US government ever decides for such a desperate move at all, its ability to wage war will be much weaker (supposing that there are enough soldiers willing to attack a peaceful neighbor just to grab its resources). The costs of a massive ground war would probably outweigh the benefits of grabbing the ever-shrinking NG resources and the tar sand mines. And even when TS has HTF, not that many Americans may be mentally or physically prepared to trek very far north for plundering raids. Refugees might be another matter.

Besides, climate change is estimated to favor Canada in the foreseeable future (more crops, less energy needed for heating) so I wouldn't discard your native country as an option.

Being close to Russia is Finland's only downside.


OTOH, it also means being close to the largest NG resources in the world and very large coal deposits, too. As long as we have something to trade for it, or find some other way to remain useful for the bear.

The worst downside here is dependence on the Gulf stream, but most recent research doesn't show its shutdown likely in the coming decades.

If Finland slips into poverty


100% certain (as everywhere).

and I happen to be in a major city other than the ecovillage


Not unlikely, given that a small ecovillage in the backwoods may become unviable at some point during the great recession. (I suspect they get some kind of government support now.)

In fact, you could have better chances if you settle in a city/town and have or acquire some practical skill like plumber, electrician, carpenter or tailor. People without applicable skills (like me right now, unless I get a permanent teaching job or find suitable training in a practical trade) are likely to end up unemployed or become a wood-chopper with a pay barely above starvation level. (The way things are going globally, I'd be content even with that.)

there is a good chance I will be politely (or not so politely)
asked to leave despite my citizenship (my last name is NOT Finnish but Danish so there is a possibility I could be rooted out).


Unlikely. I just don't see us becoming a fascist state where people are rooted out because of their surnames, especially if they're citizens. Racism is a problem in some remote places, and may become more common, but it usually affects only differently colored people, not people of Scandinavian origin.

If a resident foreigner is willing to work hard and adapt to the circumstances, there's no reason to kick them out.
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Re: Keuruu, Finland

Unread postby Nicholai » Tue 04 Dec 2007, 14:51:25

Does anyone know what the effects of climate change will be like in Finland? My other option is Costa Rica so I just want to look at these two places and see which is safer. I understand that the North will eperience greater warming, but Costa Rica just seems TOO perfect.
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Re: Keuruu, Finland

Unread postby Fredrik » Tue 04 Dec 2007, 15:59:22

Nicholai wrote:Does anyone know what the effects of climate change will be like in Finland? My other option is Costa Rica so I just want to look at these two places and see which is safer. I understand that the North will eperience greater warming, but Costa Rica just seems TOO perfect.


If the Gulf stream is not disturbed, climate change will probably be beneficiary for Scandinavian countries during the next decades (for the same reasons I stated for Canada: more crop growth and less energy required for heating). But if the warming is too rapid, I don't think it'll be an improvement anywhere. And then there may be great numbers of climate refugees from the south, although Germany, Denmark and Sweden will probably get the biggest share.

Regarding your strategic relocation, you should consider the following points before making the move (but you probably already have):

- Can the country produce enough food for its citizens, even in the conditions predicted by climate change models?
(If not, does it have some natural resource that's likely to still be in demand after PO, to trade for food?)

- Does the country have enough water for its citizens, even in the conditions predicted by climate change models?

- Are there enough indigenous energy sources for its citizens to survive? (Meaning, in practice, sources of thermal energy in northern countries.)

- Does the country have neighbors that would profit from an invasion in said country, in post-PO times?

- Do the neighboring regions of the country hold large populations that are likely and able to flee there, if their own countries can't support them?

- Will the native citizens tolerate a non-native person, when times get tough?

- Do the government and justice system generally respect laws and human rights? How much corruption is there?

- Is the population likely to remain calm and law-abiding, even when an unforeseen impoverishment sets in?

- If the social system collapses, is there a place where you can live in a self-sustaining community, safe away from (or well defended against) looters and bandits?

Good luck finding a country that has the right answer for every question. :wink:
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Re: Keuruu, Finland

Unread postby Lanthanide » Tue 04 Dec 2007, 19:12:01

Using your checklist, New Zealand comes out pretty well.
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Re: Keuruu, Finland

Unread postby Nicholai » Wed 05 Dec 2007, 14:46:13

I'm an 18 year old kid with a bad haircut, I don't think they would give me a citizenship.
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Finland: district heating

Unread postby erikiwa » Tue 18 Dec 2007, 09:03:40

Just wanted to let you know about my latest blog entry about district heating, fuel poverty and peak oil. You can find it here

I'm also trying to get a friend of mine, who is MP in Finnish parliament to do query to the government officials about preparations done in Finland for the coming peak oil situation. The chosen point of view in the query is emphasizing conservation and fuel efficiency. I try to post a short translation when the query is finished and filed.
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Re: district heating

Unread postby steam_cannon » Tue 18 Dec 2007, 14:40:07

erikiwa wrote:The government programs in UK and USA which aims to tackle the issue of fuel poverty are valiant efforts. Unfortunately they are doomed to fail as long as the only method used is subsidized fuel for poor people. When the prise of hydrocarbons clime steadily higher, the budget allocations for this type of programs are bound to fail time after time. The right way to do this, would be investing in technologies described above. Poor people needs investment aid for re-insulating their houses and for example buying heat pumps. The cities, municipalities and power companies need investment aid for building CHP plants (or converting existing plants) and constructing district heating systems. The standards and regulations concerning new buildings also have to be re-evaluated. You have to abandon the energy waisting methods and embrace the new well insulated buildings.

http://viherpippurikastike.blogspot.com ... verty.html
Very interesting article and you're quite right that these are the sort of things we should be doing. And it is likely we will see some increased development in these areas.

But unfortunately, I think the US will mostly continue to focus on it's international resource grab approach (military bases in Iraq and all that) before we start investing in insulating or heating our society. The US is very anti-communist and along with that comes being anti-socialist. Because of these social factors social programs tend to be very limited. Helping out the poor isn't an important thing here. To use US terminology, governments making a "war on home heating" is unlikely. In the US people are expected to stand on their own and fall on their own. So for the US to focus on the well being of it's people there would probably have to be blood in the streets (economically or actually). But at that point, the government may be less able to support such endeavors.

The US could have 1st world healthcare, could have efficient city planning, could have public transportation, could have bike trails, urban gardens could be legal, we could have insulation initiatives and decentralized power... But really like any banana republic, our economy is an engine for the wealthy, not some sort of system for providing the best life for possible for everyone. Decentralized power/heat production is a great technology. But as it stands, the US government holds heavy debt and a heavy handed attitude toward the poor. So changes that may happen in the US are limited, unless we see dramatic changes in attitude and living arrangements for the public.

Structurally, our current infrastructure just doesn't work well with these things. Houses are large, cheap construction and would be very difficult to insulate. Decentralized power would also be a challenge as even clusters of houses are far apart and zoning laws don't allow multiple uses like commercial structures near residential property. So laws would have to change and many houses would be left behind.

But I suppose leaving behind many of our Mc Mansion houses is already happening with the realestate crash we are seeing. So perhaps this will be the "blood in the streets" needed for rearranging housing in the US. And if this doesn't put the US economy face down in the mud and we keep stumbling along, perhaps the next big economic bubble will be in home insulation initiatives and decentralized power. Certainly something to keep an eye on anyway.

So anyway, very interesting article...
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