[yesplease]

So when do we see the magic battery-toaster cubes?

You gotta tell us meng! The only place they exist AFAIK is in your rapidly deteriorating mind!

did you see that the new battery will be the size of a sugar cube and will power 18 wheelers?
[...]
That'd make them about a 10" by 10" cube!!

[kublikhan]

An EV pack probably won't be 1000 times larger, more like 100-200 times larger

Really simple here. You got caught saying something stupid, but you'd rather stick by the comment that admit that you simply made a mistake.
You said that cars will run on batteries 100 times larger than a laptop battery.

That still ranks among the dumbest things I have ever read, no matter how you attempt to contort the meaning of your words.
If 100 times the physical size - dumb.
If 100 times the energy capacity -dumb.
If 100 times the energy - dumb.

Laptop battery - 60 bucks.
Car Battery - 6,000 bucks.
Quoting an EV zealot who wrote that cars will run on batteries 100 times the size of a laptop battery - sweet.

for a 100 Wh laptop battery, 100-200 times larger is 10-20 kilowatt hours.
GM Volt has a 16 kilowatt hour battery.
Mitsubishi iMiev has a 16 kilowatt hour battery.
Reva has a 10 kilowatt hour battery.

These all fall within the range specified by yesplease. Yet it ranks among the dumbest thing you ever heard? You are just showing your ignorance here Schmuto. And the fact that you are doing it in a very juvenile matter is not helping you either.

[Schmuto]

GM Volt has a 16 kilowatt hour battery.
. . .
These all fall within the range specified by yesplease. Yet it ranks among the dumbest thing you ever heard?

No you DI - int!!!

Come now KK, if you are going to try to challenge my mock, at least bring a weapon to the gang fight.

1st, the Volt is not yet for sale,
2nd, Chevy may not be in business in 2011, the intended 1st model year of the Volt.
3rd, the 16Kw hour battery is a "target."
4th, by Chevy's own admission, their car will only go, MAXIMUM, 40 miles on a single charge.

Whoops!

No you DI -int!

Look, I agree you can power an EV on a 9 volt battery - if you only want to move about 10 feet between recharges.

40 Mile range? That's not the EV I described.

If you want a 300 mile range, you'd need something 8 times the size.

Now, if you're being honest, you'll go back and read what I originally wrote, which is that EV car batteries are going to need to be 1,000 times the size of a laptop battery.

And that's still just about right.

If you want a 40 mile EV, but probably 30 or 20 when the thing eventually hits the road, if ever, then we can agree that YesPlease's battery cube will work.

But if you want to go 10 times that distance - which virtually everybody does, which was my original hypothetical target in this thread, then it's the stupidest thing I ever read to say that we're going to be doing it with YesPlease toaster batteries.

It's just a fine example of how these GW types are delusional about alternative energy sources and applications.

And by the way, let's revisit this thread if and when the Volt actually hits the road. If you actually believe that they're going to hit their target of 16Kwh and 40 mile range, then you're probably buying GM stock right now.

You did! You did say it!!

[kublikhan]

First off, I listed 3 different cars there. If you don't like the Volt, you can always look at the IMiev or Reva.
Second, you listed your range requirements after yesplease made his 100x - 200x comment. He did not say "you can drive 300 miles on a battery this is 100 times bigger than a laptop battery". He said an EV would probably be more like 100-200 times the capacity of a laptop battery.

Nobody here thinks you can drive an electric car 300 miles with 100 laptop batteries. That is just a strawman argument you presented because it is easier to attack than what yesplease actually said. Most commuters can get by with 40-100 miles of driving range.

Personally, with the current prices of batteries and gas, I still think the gasoline powered car is the best option at the moment. But gasoline prices are going up and battery costs are going down. Eventually these two price trends will reach the point will buying an EV or hybrid makes more sense for me. But for now I am sticking with gas powered cars.

[Schmuto]

Other ones no different than Volt.

So let's see if I've got it now.

I say they will need to run an EV with a battery a thousand times the size of a laptop battery.

She says, "no, 100 times the size."

And your reasoning to why that is right is . . .

"She meant a peanut EV that goes 40 miles."

Did I get that?



Hell, if you're going to play that losing game, why not just say she meant Stewart Little mouse scooters that will go 100 miles on a battery equivalent to a laptop battery?

[kublikhan]

Your new here, so I would expect you would not have read all of yesplease's EV posts. But we went back and forth on EV's before. He stated EV's are better suited for being urban commuter vehicles, with a battery pack sized to that role(ie, something more like 40-100 mile range rather than 250-400 miles):

current ICE cars deliver 400 mi driving ranges or better. If you are restricting the driving range of electrics to only 100 mi, that is not an even playing field. You are giving an advantage to the electric vehicle in your comparison.

I'm not taking advantage of an EV in my comparison, just pointing out the differences in operating costs. What you're saying in terms of abilities, could be applied to just about any other vehicle class. For instance, most autos probably can't tow two tons, go 0-60 in 5-6s, and seat six to eight, and those that can likely come w/ other comprimises in terms of costs. That said, we can't have all these extra advantages w/o extra costs. A hybrid is only piggybacking on the advantages of gasoline insofar as it's piggybacking on the advantages of electric as well. Gasoline provides great energy density/range, and above certain speeds/loads isn't that much more than electric, and electric provides significant cost savings below certain power outputs/load levels. Hybrids maximize the advantages of both gasoline and electric. If you want you could get a 6-8 passenger electric SUV that goes 0-60 in 5-6s and has 400 miles of range, but you can't seriously associate the disadvantages in terms of paying more for extra abilities or using a suboptimal configuration w/ piggybacking for either gasoline or electric.

the I Miev is not a mid sized sedan. It is a little ecobox car that makes the Corolla look like a luxury sedan. $40,000 for a ecobox car seems rather pricey to me wouldn't you say?

agree, and in this case definitely think that going w/ a conversion is the best way to optimize cost savings versus initial costs, but the imiev is a good example of how even a low volume EV can compete with a high volume gasoline vehicle in lifetime costs. Even though there are definitely cheaper ways to go.

[yesplease]

Other ones no different than Volt.

So let's see if I've got it now.

I say they will need to run an EV with a battery a thousand times the size of a laptop battery.

She says, "no, 100 times the size."

And your reasoning to why that is right is . . .

"She meant a peanut EV that goes 40 miles."

Did I get that?

More or less, yeah. Dumping an extra $5-10k into a batteries that won't get used much and will age out would be about $5-10k down the drain. With conventional vehicles there's a small penalty, maybe a few bucks, for having a larger gas tank and greater range, but w/ EVs the cost penalty for unused battery capacity with greater range is way larger.

[Schmuto]

Did I get that?

More or less, yeah. Dumping an extra $5-10k into a batteries that won't get used much and will age out would be about $5-10k down the drain. With conventional vehicles there's a small penalty, maybe a few bucks, for having a larger gas tank and greater range, but w/ EVs the cost penalty for unused battery capacity with greater range is way larger.

Alright then!

[kevincarter]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/27/bolivia-petrol-price-rise

It has to be a hell of an experience to see a 73% oil price increase (83% in diesel) when you can barely afford food.

[Questionmark]

What's most interesting to me is the way in which the government handled this. Instead of phasing out the subsidy over an extended period of time they chose to hold out until they could no longer afford it and abruptly put an end to it. In a single day they managed to let the price shoot up, induced panicked hoarding of food, and sent the army out amongst the general populace as mass transit is completely shut down. You can't help but wonder how poorly our own government will handle any mitigation efforts.