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European Coal Power Plants

Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby kiwichick » Tue 29 Sep 2015, 18:25:51

@ t

hope you are not suggesting the republicans have any chance of providing the next us president?
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 29 Sep 2015, 23:02:27

kiwichick wrote:@ t

hope you are not suggesting the republicans have any chance of providing the next us president?


Why not? Voters in my country frequently shift their loyalties from one side to the other, not being satisfied with what they get from either side of the political fence.

If you look at American history from 1952-2015 you will see that Eisenhower (R) had two terms followed by JFK/LBJ (D) for a combined two terms, then Nixon/Ford (R) for a combined two terms, J.E. Carter (D) for one term, Reagan (R) for two terms, G.H.W. Bush (R) for one term, Bill Clinton (D) for two terms, G. W. Bush (R) for two terms and now B. H. Obama (D) for two terms.

Based on these political shifts this election could go either way but even if the (D) candidate wins this time around they are likely to only get one term, especially if Peak Oil consequences show up during their period of power. If the (R) candidate gets elected and those same consequences show up they will have the political cover of pointing out that the (D) party had the Presidency for the last 8 years and didn't prevent the crisis. There is not much logic in that, but politics rarely involves logic. Mostly American politics is about appeals to emotion.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 30 Sep 2015, 07:40:47

T - And IMHO your post only emphasizes how little difference there really is between the two parties when it comes to major policies that are actually ENACTED. That's why it's so common see the public flip flop since WWII. Yeah...lots of differences rhetoric wise. But at the end of the day not a lot of substantial difference so it's easy for the voting public (who aren't really R's or D's despite how they register) to switch hats. Of course there are the minorities of yellow dog D's and R's but they never determine the outcomes for the POTUS elections: it's always the fence sitters that will go either way depending upon the current circumstances.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 30 Sep 2015, 07:54:26

ROCKMAN wrote:T - And IMHO your post only emphasizes how little difference there really is between the two parties when it comes to major policies that are actually ENACTED. That's why it's so common see the public flip flop since WWII. Yeah...lots of differences rhetoric wise. But at the end of the day not a lot of substantial difference so it's easy for the voting public (who aren't really R's or D's despite how they register) to switch hats. Of course there are the minorities of yellow dog D's and R's but they never determine the outcomes for the POTUS elections: it's always the fence sitters that will go either way depending upon the current circumstances.


Which brings us right back to what I consider a basic fact of human behavior. For the same reason Turkey is building 80 new large coal burning electric power plants, when the average citizen starts screaming to the government about expensive energy there are only a few things government can do to react.

One thing they can do is be Statesman, look to the future and say, sorry but this is the way it has to be because we are doing this for the children/grandchildren/further future.

Another thing they can do is take actions to subsidize expenses for the average citizen and the poor sector of the population.

A third thing they can do is cut red tape and issue lots of permits for construction of cheap, dirty, coal burning facilities.

That is pretty much the limit of Governments real power, they can encourage or discourage. If we stay on the growth BAU paradigm the only way to continue will be to expand energy use. The cheapest possible energy use is fossil fuels where most of the waste is dumped into the atmosphere and floats down wind instead of having to be buried or stabilized or dealt with in some other fashion.

I wish it was not that way, but that is the way it is.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 30 Sep 2015, 08:39:30

T - "...and say, sorry but this is the way it has to be because we are doing this for the children/grandchildren/further future." Yes indeed: that would make a very fine statement when they make their conciliatory speech after they lose the election. LOL.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 30 Sep 2015, 09:05:59

Four European countries burn more coal now than they did in 2009, Britain, France, Germany and Italy. Anyone who actually believes Politicians will keep being elected if they do otherwise does not understand politics or human nature.

Five of the world’s seven richest countries have increased their coal use in the last five years despite demanding that poor countries slash their carbon emissions to avoid catastrophic climate change, new research shows.

Britain, Germany, Italy, Japan and France together burned 16% more coal in 2013 than 2009 and are planning to further increase construction of coal-fired power stations. Only the US and Canada of the G7 countries meeting on Monday in Berlin have reduced coal consumption since the Copenhagen climate summit in 2009.

The US has reduced its coal consumption by 8% largely because of fracking for shale gas. Overall, the G7 countries reduced coal consumption by less than 1% between 2009-2013, the Oxfam research shows.

The G7’s addiction to coal is hiking up costs for developing countries and putting more and more people on the frontline of climate change at risk of hunger. If G7 coal plants were a country, it would be the fifth biggest emitter in the world. They are still burning huge amounts.

Globally, coal is responsible for almost three-quarters (72%) of all power-sector emissions, and while more than half of today’s coal consumption is in 140 developing countries, the scale of coal-burning by the rich few is considerable.


http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... arch-shows
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 30 Sep 2015, 11:12:22

All stats from the EIA: As of 9 Sept 2015 the US was producing 1,126,121,039 short tons of coal per year. And in 2001 the US was producing 1,127,688,806 st. Or a reduction of 0.14% today. While the US might be CONSUMING less coal we are exporting much more than ever before so it can be consumed overseas. IOW the consumption of all US coal is contributing just as much GHG today as it was 14 years ago. The only significant difference is that a higher % is coming from federal leases with the US govt collecting the royalties from the mining companies.

And this is happening under the watch of our “greenest” POTUS. Imagine what it would be under an R POTUS. LOL.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Synapsid » Wed 30 Sep 2015, 17:43:39

Tanada,

What interests me about the nuclear plant planned for Sinop, on the Black Sea coast of Turkey, stems from my having been stationed in Sinop in 1967 and 1968. The town had no paved streets, and no pier either in spite of it being a stop for the steamer from Istanbul to Trabzon. (To disembark you walked down the ladder along the side of the hull of the steamer and then jumped into a fishing boat--having tossed your luggage first--that was bobbing about six feet below you.) Now Sinop has a university, and suburbs. And a pier.

Turkey's population today is well over twice what it was when I was there. Turkey has coal, and little oil or NG (their NG comes mostly from Russia, and I guess Azeribaijan) so the coal plants and the nuclear ones are no surprise.

(snif) Sinop was a great place.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Ulenspiegel » Thu 01 Oct 2015, 02:15:57

Tanada wrote:Four European countries burn more coal now than they did in 2009, Britain, France, Germany and Italy. Anyone who actually believes Politicians will keep being elected if they do otherwise does not understand politics or human nature.

Five of the world’s seven richest countries have increased their coal use in the last five years despite demanding that poor countries slash their carbon emissions to avoid catastrophic climate change, new research shows.

Britain, Germany, Italy, Japan and France together burned 16% more coal in 2013 than 2009 and are planning to further increase construction of coal-fired power stations. Only the US and Canada of the G7 countries meeting on Monday in Berlin have reduced coal consumption since the Copenhagen climate summit in 2009.

The US has reduced its coal consumption by 8% largely because of fracking for shale gas. Overall, the G7 countries reduced coal consumption by less than 1% between 2009-2013, the Oxfam research shows.

The G7’s addiction to coal is hiking up costs for developing countries and putting more and more people on the frontline of climate change at risk of hunger. If G7 coal plants were a country, it would be the fifth biggest emitter in the world. They are still burning huge amounts.

Globally, coal is responsible for almost three-quarters (72%) of all power-sector emissions, and while more than half of today’s coal consumption is in 140 developing countries, the scale of coal-burning by the rich few is considerable.


http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... arch-shows


Tanada, to use the year 2009 as reference point is stupid propaganda. Either use 2007 or an 10 year avarage. But then you would look like a clown.

And your claim that more coal power plants are added (net addition) is again a lie, get correct data and come back. There is hugh excess capacity in Europe and many utilities are shutting down coal power plants in addition to NG capacity. For Germany we now have in August 2014 approved shut downs of almost 4 GW coal power until 2018, many coal power plants (60 smaller ones) are on the "application list" for shut down, most of them will be labled as not system relevant by the net agency and will be dead in a few years. You obviously do not know what you are talking about.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 01 Oct 2015, 06:35:29

Ulenspiegel wrote:Tanada, to use the year 2009 as reference point is stupid propaganda. Either use 2007 or an 10 year avarage. But then you would look like a clown.

And your claim that more coal power plants are added (net addition) is again a lie, get correct data and come back. There is hugh excess capacity in Europe and many utilities are shutting down coal power plants in addition to NG capacity. For Germany we now have in August 2014 approved shut downs of almost 4 GW coal power until 2018, many coal power plants (60 smaller ones) are on the "application list" for shut down, most of them will be labled as not system relevant by the net agency and will be dead in a few years. You obviously do not know what you are talking about.


I quoted a news article and included a link to the source of the quote. Perhaps before accusing me or any other member of lying and making up their own facts you could find data refuting the quote I made from the source I posted. If you find evidence that the source I quoted was wrong you should post it so we can all be reassured my source was mistaken.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Ulenspiegel » Fri 02 Oct 2015, 06:20:39

GASMON wrote:
Ulenspiegel wrote:
And your claim that more coal power plants are added (net addition) is again a lie, get correct data and come back. There is hugh excess capacity in Europe and many utilities are shutting down coal power plants in addition to NG capacity. For Germany we now have in August 2014 approved shut downs of almost 4 GW coal power until 2018, many coal power plants (60 smaller ones) are on the "application list" for shut down, most of them will be labled as not system relevant by the net agency and will be dead in a few years. You obviously do not know what you are talking about.


Tanada does, You don't.

I'm a retired gas engineer with 40 years experience in the energy industry

The UK is shutting down coal fired plants AND it is stated we (the UK) WILL have energy shortages in a severe winter. Didcot closed last year, as I stated in an earlier post, the main generators sold & exported to Germanys new Lignite fired power stations. Eggborough station in Yorkshire to close next year. Winter 2016 /17 will be the crunch. We have new nuclear planned - but that is years away.

Google Didcot, Eggborough, Britain's coming energy crunch. Germanys NEW lignite power stations etc, it's all there, many articles from many sources. Here is one.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... een-future

I once respected and admired Germany. With the recent German decisions to shut nuclear / build Lignite plants, unfettered immigration (Merkel - Germany welcomes you all but the rest of Europe must take there share or loose EEC funding) and the rapidly evolving Volks Wagon diesel scandal - well, I now have very serious doubts.

Gas



Gasmon,

maybe you should understand the difference between gross addition and net addition. If you checked the power plant lists of the German Netzagentur (Net Agency) you would see, that there is a net reduction of coal power.

http://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/cln_143 ... -node.html

Guardian is a newspaper, not even a good one, but not a reliable source for German energy reality. Sorry.

And BTW the UK government has financed a few yeras ago a good study on coal power, why do you not read it? :-)

Some of the UK issues could simply be solved with more crossborder transmission capacity, please do not sell political inaptitude as physical reality. Hint: Continental Europe has huge excess capacities.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Ulenspiegel » Fri 02 Oct 2015, 06:30:19

Tanada wrote:
Ulenspiegel wrote:Tanada, to use the year 2009 as reference point is stupid propaganda. Either use 2007 or an 10 year avarage. But then you would look like a clown.

And your claim that more coal power plants are added (net addition) is again a lie, get correct data and come back. There is hugh excess capacity in Europe and many utilities are shutting down coal power plants in addition to NG capacity. For Germany we now have in August 2014 approved shut downs of almost 4 GW coal power until 2018, many coal power plants (60 smaller ones) are on the "application list" for shut down, most of them will be labled as not system relevant by the net agency and will be dead in a few years. You obviously do not know what you are talking about.


I quoted a news article and included a link to the source of the quote. Perhaps before accusing me or any other member of lying and making up their own facts you could find data refuting the quote I made from the source I posted. If you find evidence that the source I quoted was wrong you should post it so we can all be reassured my source was mistaken.


Once again, you quote a newspaper, that gives no source for their numbers. The offical stuff is found on:

AGEB (Working group energy balances), they publish numbers on primary energy, electricity generation etc.

The relevant numbers on power plant additions (net and gross values) are of course found in the publications of the Net Agency and -surprise, surprise- contradict your source.

http://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/cln_143 ... -node.html

Hint: Besides the officially approved shut downs there is a long list with at least 5 GW additional capacity the utilities want to shut down. How can we get with these numbers an net addition???
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 12 Jul 2019, 12:13:44

Much more and pictures at link below quote

The coal mine that ate Hambacher forest

More than a third of Germany's electricity is still produced by burning coal - mostly dirty brown lignite - and environmental activists are fighting to change this... We're sitting under the trees of the Hambacher Forest, in the west of Germany, 30km (20 miles) from the city of Cologne... They're here because the Hambi is threatened with total destruction. There's not much of it left now. The forest sits atop one of the largest coalfields in Europe and since mining started in 1978 the trees have been gradually stripped away to allow the excavators access to the riches that lie beneath - millions of tons of coal, coal that keeps industry running in this part of Germany and provides thousands of people with a living.

To add insult to injury, the coal that is extracted here is brown coal, also known as lignite... Only 10% of the Hambi is still standing.


BBC Report
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby dissident » Sun 14 Jul 2019, 13:23:22

Tanada wrote:Much more and pictures at link below quote

The coal mine that ate Hambacher forest

More than a third of Germany's electricity is still produced by burning coal - mostly dirty brown lignite - and environmental activists are fighting to change this... We're sitting under the trees of the Hambacher Forest, in the west of Germany, 30km (20 miles) from the city of Cologne... They're here because the Hambi is threatened with total destruction. There's not much of it left now. The forest sits atop one of the largest coalfields in Europe and since mining started in 1978 the trees have been gradually stripped away to allow the excavators access to the riches that lie beneath - millions of tons of coal, coal that keeps industry running in this part of Germany and provides thousands of people with a living.

To add insult to injury, the coal that is extracted here is brown coal, also known as lignite... Only 10% of the Hambi is still standing.


BBC Report


Anti-nuclear morons.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby kublikhan » Sun 14 Jul 2019, 21:46:09

Meanwhile coal in the UK falls to single digit percentages and is on track to end in the UK by 2025.

One of the UK’s last seven coal power stations will close this year after half a century of generating electricity, as the polluting fuel continues its rapid decline in the energy mix. The power station was no longer economically viable, the company said. Cottam has been hit by the costs of working to European environmental standards and the failure to secure a contract for payments supply backup power after September.

The UK government has pledged to end coal power generation in the UK by 2025 to meet its climate change commitments. Just seven years ago, coal was a cornerstone of the energy system, providing more than 40% of electricity, but a series of closures in the face of poor economics have led to it tumbling to 5% last year. Gas and renewables have taken up the slack, as new windfarms have been connected to the grid.
One of UK's last coal power stations to close due to rising costs

Italy's consumption of coal has been falling sharply as well, falling from 16,234 TOE mn in 2007 to 8,878 TOE mn in 2018.

In Europe as a whole, coal is shrinking as well:

In Europe the use of coal for power generation retreated for the fifth successive year in 2017, while the use of renewables continues to grow. coal's share of Europe's total power generation fell to 20% last year, while the share from renewables increased to 30%.

Coal dependence in Europe is not as high as generally thought; its 20% share of power generation is lower than in other OECD economies such as the US, China, Japan and Australia. Eight European states have pledged to phase out coal use completely – Austria, Denmark, France, Finland, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal and the UK – so coal-fired power will continue to decline as more capacity gets retired. In 2016-17 14 gigawatts of coal-fired capacity was retired in Europe, and there is little capacity in the construction or planning phase.

Germany and Poland combined account for 55% of total coal generation in the EU. Coal accounts for three-quarters of Poland's power generation, and little change in the country's energy policy is expected in the short to medium term. While the details of the agreement are still to be worked out, politicians are realising that Germany's claims to climate leadership are undermined by its heavy use of coal. Last year coal use fell in Germany for the fourth successive year, but coal still accounts for 37% of the country's power generation.
Coal use falls again in Europe in 2017

Code: Select all
European Union Primary energy consumption(all units in Mtoe)
     1995  2017  2040     1995-2017 change   2017-2040 change
coal  363   234    79     -129               -155
BP Energy Outlook – 2019
The oil barrel is half-full.
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