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European Coal Power Plants

Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 06 Mar 2015, 12:24:50

On the one hand I know a lot of EU countries have an irrational fear of Fission power, on the other hand they frequently proclaim the dangers of global warming. Reconciling the issue in favor of More Global Warming is clearly the preferred solution in many EU member states.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 06 Mar 2015, 13:35:35

GASMON - "Their only natural energy source is Lignite, which is more like peat than coal. What else can they do?" They could try the approach Texas is currently making. We also have huge lignite deposits...more than 100 years’ worth at current consumption levels. The second largest source of GHG in the US comes from a plant where half the burners run on NG and the other half on lignite. But we're in the process of building the largest CO2 sequestration system on the planet to handle much of those GHG's. Will cost more than $1 BILLION just for the infrastructure. And it's being done primarily to address the US govt's efforts to shut down coal burning plants.

There are numerous technical approaches to dealing with climate change. But the cost of such approaches is often the stumbling block. The motivation for the Texas sequestration project isn't to save the planet...it's to save the Texas economy which is expected to have a significant increase in electricity demand in the coming decades.

It would appear that in Europe they might be against GW. But the question is whether they are willing to fund the battle or not.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Ulenspiegel » Sat 07 Mar 2015, 14:04:31

@Gasmon,

is it really so difficult to get correct data? You are talking nonsense.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 07 Mar 2015, 14:14:22

+1
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 27 Sep 2015, 06:30:08

Turkey is building 80 new Coal electric plants. They have made the strategic decision to use Coal because they have a lot of it, instead of Natural Gas that has to be imported from neighboring Russia or Iraq.

Turkey has very big plans for coal, with more than 80 new plants in the pipeline, equivalent in capacity to the UK’s entire power sector. The scale of the coal rush is greater than any country on Earth, after China and India. It is pushing forward in a year when the world’s nations must seal a deal to combat climate change at a crunch UN summit in Paris in December and when scientists have warned that 80% of known coal reserves must stay in the ground.

Turkey is desperate to keep stoking its fast-growing economy and to wean itself off its enormous dependence on Russian gas. But opponents warn that coal brings a heavy human health toll, estimated to already cost Turkey several billion Euros a year, and they point to the virtual absence of solar power in the sunny country.

A short drive from Goğulhan, Hussein Alp Aslan, is looking down on vast 20km-long opencast coal mine that feeds the Afşin-Elbistan plant with low-quality, highly polluting lignite coal. The patchwork of ochres and greys, smouldering fires and gigantic insect-like machines tearing at the seams, is laid out beneath a fringe of sharp mountains and a blue sky.

About 700km to the north, on the Black Sea coast, lies Zonguldak. Here, the smokestacks of three coal-fired power plants form a snaking line along the floor of a steep, forested valley, including the nation’s first plant which opened 70 years ago. It is indisputably a coal town. The football team was named Coal Sports, the school Black Diamond and a new $1bn coal power station is planned here, backed by Chinese investors.

Zonguldak hosts one of Turkey’s few hard coal reserves and standing inside a pitch-black tunnel, just off one of the hairpin bends that leads to the road out of the valley, miner Murat Sahin says: “I like the job – it’s kind of a privilege. We like the fact that coal is heating people’s homes, and producing electricity. We feel productive.”

For Sahin, coal itself is not the problem, but the way it it used. “I agree with the air pollution concerns, but they have to take the correct measures to put filters on the power stations, and they are not doing it,” he says. “We have to use local resources. Would you prefer nuclear power here? It is much more dirty – look at Chernobyl.” He smiles away concerns for his own health, with the coal dust picking out the laughter lines around his eyes: “That’s an advantage of the job: miners never grow old.”

The Turkish government has emphasised the use of indigenous resources in pushing its coal rush, but 95% of the fuel used by plants built in the last five years has come from abroad. Opposition to these coal imports is an issue that unites both the coal miners and local groups campaigning against the new plant in Zonguldak, where a green mountain spur on the coast is being cut away to expand the port.

Government support for coal is strong, including substantial subsidies, but projects in the newly privatised industry require financing. On 16th floor of Garanti Bank’s headquarters in Istanbul, the glass walls show a glittering panorama of the booming city as executive vice president Ebru Dildar Edin explains the bank’s approach.

The international spotlight will focus on Turkey when it hosts a G20 summit in November, just weeks ahead of the crunch UN climate summit in Paris. One issue could be the big coal projects that are reliant on imported fuel, which Edin says are likely to need foreign finance: “I don’t think there will be a big appetite for these from Turkish banks.” But this is not a barrier to the $12bn proposals at the Afşin-Elbistan complex, which sits on its own vast lignite reserves.


Turkey has some pretty large coal reserves and is planning to domestically produce the fuel for all these new plants as fast as they can expand their mining capability.

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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 27 Sep 2015, 08:37:31

I suppose we could shut down a couple of hundred plants with state of the art scrubbers on them to balance out the pollution.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sun 27 Sep 2015, 11:44:38

vtsnowedin wrote:I suppose we could shut down a couple of hundred plants with state of the art scrubbers on them to balance out the pollution.


Interesting that this is all being talked about right before climate talks begin. Turkey has a lot of resources and has been a part of NATO for decades, but suddenly certain parties are complaining about them building new coal burners That China Is Financing!!

How much of these complaints are just political pressure being targeted on China's very wide ranging investment strategy? Since they slowed down buying US treasury bonds they have been building stuff all over the place. Railroads in Africa, oil refineries in the Middle East, now power plants in Turkey?

Face it, with all the money flowing in from being the worlds factory China has also become the de facto world investor, they have diversified their profits into all kinds of things, anywhere they could.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby dissident » Sun 27 Sep 2015, 13:56:34

The point has been made routinely that humans will burn whatever they can as cheap energy supply becomes scarce. This frenzy of coal plants confirms this fact. The political system is totally geared to short term planning and responses. Global warming has been fobbed off as a future problem.

But reality soon give us a nice whack upside the head. Look for serious agricultural problems by 2030.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Synapsid » Sun 27 Sep 2015, 18:35:39

Tanada,

Despair not--Turkey has begun construction of her first nuclear-power plant, at Akkuyu on the south coast, just across the strait from Cyprus. The second is planned for Sinop, at the point farthest north on the Black Sea coast.

No unhealthy fixation on coal alone, in Turkey, no sir.

The coal plants and the nuclear ones are consistent with the lack of progress on the Turkish Stream NG line Gazprom has been planning for. Turkey has not exactly welcomed the proposal with open arms.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 27 Sep 2015, 19:07:47

Synapsid wrote:Tanada,

Despair not--Turkey has begun construction of her first nuclear-power plant, at Akkuyu on the south coast, just across the strait from Cyprus. The second is planned for Sinop, at the point farthest north on the Black Sea coast.

No unhealthy fixation on coal alone, in Turkey, no sir.

The coal plants and the nuclear ones are consistent with the lack of progress on the Turkish Stream NG line Gazprom has been planning for. Turkey has not exactly welcomed the proposal with open arms.


Turkey and Russia have an animosity going back about a thousand years so no real surprise there is not a huge way of public support for tying themselves to the Russian Natural Gas as a purchaser.

Interesting that they are building two fission plants while continuing work on 80 Coal plants. The whole reason I brought this to the attention of the board is the very strange idea that if China doesn't build another 100 coal plants next year somehow we will all be saved from global warming or something.

Those 100 plants that China may or may not build will simply be built in Turkey, or India, or Indonesia, or Brazil, which is suffering major power problems as the drought greatly reduces their hydroelectric reservoirs.

Humans are clever beasties, if it is flammable someone or other will set it on fire, sooner or later.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 28 Sep 2015, 09:07:09

And to repeat what was said months ago about how to deal with coal plant GHG: "They could try the approach Texas is currently making. We also have huge lignite deposits. The second largest source of GHG in the US comes from a plant where half the burners run on NG and the other half on lignite. But we're in the process of building the largest CO2 sequestration system on the planet to handle much of those GHG's. Will cost more than $1 BILLION just for the infrastructure. And it's being done primarily to address the US govt's efforts to shut down coal burning plants.

There are numerous technical approaches to dealing with climate change. But the cost of such approaches is often the stumbling block. The motivation for the Texas sequestration project isn't to save the planet...it's to save the Texas economy which is expected to have a significant increase in electricity demand in the coming decades. It would appear that in Europe they might be against GW. But the question is whether they are willing to fund the battle or not."

Or more to the point: can Turkey afford (and willing to pay) for a plan to reduce those emissions? Maybe the EU might want to toss some $’s at Turkey to help out? Or take the opposite route and pass trade sanctions against Turkey. Let’s just hold our breaths and see who does what, eh?
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 28 Sep 2015, 21:38:21

ROCKMAN wrote:And to repeat what was said months ago about how to deal with coal plant GHG: "They could try the approach Texas is currently making. We also have huge lignite deposits. The second largest source of GHG in the US comes from a plant where half the burners run on NG and the other half on lignite. But we're in the process of building the largest CO2 sequestration system on the planet to handle much of those GHG's. Will cost more than $1 BILLION just for the infrastructure. And it's being done primarily to address the US govt's efforts to shut down coal burning plants.

There are numerous technical approaches to dealing with climate change. But the cost of such approaches is often the stumbling block. The motivation for the Texas sequestration project isn't to save the planet...it's to save the Texas economy which is expected to have a significant increase in electricity demand in the coming decades. It would appear that in Europe they might be against GW. But the question is whether they are willing to fund the battle or not."

Or more to the point: can Turkey afford (and willing to pay) for a plan to reduce those emissions? Maybe the EU might want to toss some $’s at Turkey to help out? Or take the opposite route and pass trade sanctions against Turkey. Let’s just hold our breaths and see who does what, eh?


To phrase it politely, I strongly doubt any of the CCS strategies will ever be used except in a very limited fashion for things like enhanced oil field recovery. They just plain cost too much and accomplish too little.

I am very hopeful that we never see a lot invested in 'geoengineering' either, the last thing I want is for the same incompetent leadership that caused the problem to try and fix it and inevitably make it even worse in the attempt.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Ulenspiegel » Tue 29 Sep 2015, 02:22:48

GASMON wrote:
Ulenspiegel wrote:@Gasmon,

is it really so difficult to get correct data? You are talking nonsense.


Please show us the "correct" data, with sources.

Thanks,

Gas


The data you need are :

1) AGEB, the best compilations are in German, the larger tables are in English too. One has to read the reports too.

http://www.ag-energiebilanzen.de/

2) https://www.energy-charts.de/index_de.htm

3) http://www.agora-energiewende.de/de/

4) http://www.renewablesinternational.net/
You do not have to share their conclusions, however, many of their data are very good.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Ulenspiegel » Tue 29 Sep 2015, 02:37:38

GASMON wrote:
Ulenspiegel wrote:@Gasmon,

is it really so difficult to get correct data? You are talking nonsense.


Please show us the "correct" data, with sources.

Thanks,

Gas


You started thge discussion without providing sources, therefore, it is a little bit a joke that you request me to do your homework.

Let's start with some of your facts:

1) Germany is a netexporter of electricty, this includes France. And one could add, that Germany exports are more expensive than her imports. This does not support your position. But you have sources that explain this contradiction.

2) Baseload (plus mid load and peak load) is one solution. You do not bring any evidence that this is the only one and the best one. Combination of generators with capacity factors of 20-60% like wind turbines, plus a little bit PV and NG or bio gas in open turbines works too. Fraunhofer working groups simulate a lot and discuss economic impact, where are your sources?

3) You have obviously no clue how much coal is under pressure in Germany, read the stuff of the Transmisiion Net Agency, then come back. You confuse power with energy and obviously do not understand the issue of decreasing FLH of coal power plants.

4) Yes, lignite is very likely the last of the three energy carrieres (uraniaum, hard coal, lignite) that will die. But is that bad when at the same time the overall CO2 release decreases?
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 29 Sep 2015, 08:15:02

T - "...I strongly doubt any of the CCS strategies will ever be used except in a very limited fashion for things like enhanced oil field recovery." I suspect you understand that the Texas CCS project isn't a proposal but construction to capture the second largest source of GHG in the USA started over a year ago. But I agree about the cost justification: we aren't doing it to "save the earth" or for "future generations". It's strictly a necessary business plan: Texas needs an ever increasing amount of electricity, we have a huge lignite reserve and the feds are constantly pushing against us over of GHG emissions. The $billion+ price tag is cheap compared to he hundreds of $billions of electricity we'll generate in decades to come. And beside: the feds are chipping in a big chunk of the cost. So thank you...suckers. LOL.
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Re: European Coal Power Plants

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 29 Sep 2015, 10:29:37

ROCKMAN wrote:T - "...I strongly doubt any of the CCS strategies will ever be used except in a very limited fashion for things like enhanced oil field recovery." I suspect you understand that the Texas CCS project isn't a proposal but construction to capture the second largest source of GHG in the USA started over a year ago. But I agree about the cost justification: we aren't doing it to "save the earth" or for "future generations". It's strictly a necessary business plan: Texas needs an ever increasing amount of electricity, we have a huge lignite reserve and the feds are constantly pushing against us over of GHG emissions. The $billion+ price tag is cheap compared to he hundreds of $billions of electricity we'll generate in decades to come. And beside: the feds are chipping in a big chunk of the cost. So thank you...suckers. LOL.


I think it is at best a stop gap to get the EPA off their case until a different party gets elected to hold the Presidency whether that be next year or four years down the road. But I am just a suspicious minded kind of person, I am sure they are doing it out of good clean American apple pie and baseball motivation......
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