pea-jay wrote:I keep thinking that coal, as currently utilized will not be the fallback energy source that everyone thinks it will be, especially in places that have long extracted and utilized the substance. Why? Because we already use a crap load of oil to get at the coal seam. Look at modern coal operations in many countries. Huge equipment is required. In Appalachia they bulldoze entire mountains to get at the seam. From an energy stand point, thats a huge expenditure to move a lot of rock to get at a relatively small resource. For deep operations, great big lifts are required to bring the coal to the surface. Again, thats a lot of energy is expenditure.
Now fast forward to an energy poor future. Where will all of that energy needed to extract the coal come from? Continued reliance on oil (diesel) will force the cost of the coal upwards like the cost of the fuel the equipment requires. Plus eventually, the decision will eventually have to be made what other use will have to go without (when continuing declines) leave less fuel supplied than can be produced. Plus for oil importing nations with coal deposits, where will the funds come from to pay for the oil to get the coal.
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Coal certainly can't be extracted by coal derived synthetic oil. The process usually consumes more energy than it produces and even if it is positive, it is barely so. Now taking that syncrude, converting it to diesel to put into the equipment to run...well that sounds like an energy black hole.
Now, if the coal is extracted by human power and then burnt, maybe. From what I have read, alot of Chinese mines are largely human powered (which also explains their high fatality rate, too). But that's just one country. We already mined the most easily accessed coal supplies by human power more than a hundred years ago. Heck, even the number of machine driven (but people run) deep coal operations in this country have dwindled in favor of the large surface mining pits. If we have to go back to human powered operations of the mid 1900s or late 1800s how in the world are we going to produce at the current level of production, let alone increase to meet this anticipated increase in demand for coal.
Maybe I am missing something. But I don't think conventional coal production is going to cut it, post peak.
What about non conventional? This I am not so sure about. If scientists are sucessful enough, perhaps they could figure out how to get at the coal unconventionally. I certainly hope not. From what I have read though, so far no efforts have been successful (commercially) to date. Specifically I am refering to Underground Coal Gassification, but it could be anyother mean of accessing coal without conventionally mining it.
I think the jury is still out on that one.
The Wyoming Department of Environmental Quality supported the reclassification. Then in January, EPA officials told the state agency it needed to hold a public hearing and collect public comments on the proposal before the EPA would consider granting the change.
The hearing is set for 4-7 p.m. Wednesday at the public library in Wright.
Company officials didn’t return messages Monday seeking comment, but a group that successfully appealed the state Environmental Quality Council to review the project last fall said it remains opposed to the aquifer classification.
“We believe it would be illegal for DEQ to issue an aquifer exemption in this case, because the aquifer is good quality water that could be a future source of drinking water,” Shannon Anderson with the Powder River Basin Resource Council said Monday.
Department spokesman Keith Guille said by email the ultimate decision on the aquifer is up to the EPA, but the company has met all criteria for granting reclassification. Gov. Matt Mead spokesman Renny MacKay said the governor has met with Linc Energy officials and is following the project with interest, as it could add value to Wyoming’s coal.
Linc Energy has experimented with underground gasification in Australia but the project would be the first of its kind in Wyoming in several decades. The Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory experimented with underground coal gasification in the basin in three phases in 1976, 1977 and 1979. The Hoe Creek project gasified some 6,500 tons of coal.
Testing later revealed the project contaminated the site with substances including benzene, toluene and ethylbenzene, requiring more than $10 million to clean up.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
ROCKMAN wrote:Given the current debate over frac'ng shales in the UK this could be of interest:
"Current Status: There are now signs that current issues relating to green house emissions and global price increases in gas are generating higher levels of interest in UCG and in 2009 and 2010 the Authority received applications for, and granted, some 14 conditional near offshore UCG licences to companies, keen to pursue the technology further in Great Britain. These conditional licences enable prospective operators to secure the rights to the coal while projects are developed but do not permit UCG operations to commence until all other rights and permissions are in place."
Even hydrocarbon-rich Canada is in the game, with its soon-to-be-completed $1.5 bn Swan Hills Synfuels project in Alberta. This facility will exploit an otherwise inaccessible coal seam almost a mile deep, and utilize the gas in a 300 MW power plant, at costs that are said to be “very competitive.” Following on the heels of a successful demonstration project in 2009, the new facility is expected to start delivering gas in 2015. http://swanhills-synfuels.com The project will also capture over 1.3 million tonnes of CO2 each year, to be utilized for enhanced oil recovery.
With shale gas still very cheap in North America, Underground Coal Gasification may not make major progress on this continent anytime soon. But here’s the thing: ten years ago, we didn’t put much stock in the future of shale gas. Meanwhile, the global coal resource is enormous. Natural gas is a lot more expensive in other parts of the world. And lots of other countries are diligently running their experiments. Don’t be surprised if we hear a lot more about UGC in the years to come.
DESCRIBING underground coal gasification as “an imminent threat to the Forth” Dunfermline MSP Cara Hilton is calling for it to be stopped.
Cara Hilton MSP has broadly welcomed the Scottish Government's commitment to the moratorium on shale gas exploitation and coalbed methane in Scotland but she believes that Minister for Business, Energy and Tourism, Fergus Ewing should further use his powers and extend it to include UCG.
In a letter to the Minister, Cara Hilton MSP wrote that UCG is an “imminent threat”, with two companies preparing proposals in the Forth and Solway. She continued to state that both areas are vital to tourism, wildlife and commerce and as a result have come under strong opposition from leading organisations in such sectors.
Cara Hilton MSP said, “I know that licences for UCG are different from those for shale gas and coalbed methane and I fully support the idea that Scotland should be able to control licensing for all three techniques. However, I do not see this as a reason not to include UCG in the current moratorium when the risks are the same or even greater.
“I have called on Fergus Ewing to use the planning system and the environment licensing system to stop UCG in just the same way as he is using it to stop unconventional gas techniques.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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