[basketballjones]

The "oil" they will use to plant etc is the oil they will be growing themselves for starters ....

Please provide the mathematics behind this statement.

..pause..

I knew you couldn't do it.

it's circular logic anwyays.

the oil we'll use to grow the oil we'll use to grow the oil we'll use etc etc etc

[Battle_Scarred_Galactico]

F*ck that, I'd rather use any remaining land to grow food than waste time with this desperate shit.

[Licho]

You know it's kinda funny when I moved my pointer over the link and saw the phrase "hempfarm.org" in the status bar of my browser the article lost any hope of credibility. Most articles lose their credibility in the first paragraph but this one lost it without me having to even bother visiting the site. Now that's a record!



I'm sorry but I just can't make myself click on that link.

Erm, people are like are the worst kind of people, closed mind people with some bigote or fundamentalistic ideas, I think that you lost credibility by refusing to even read something that contains "hempfarm". What's wrong with "hempfarm", hemp is used here for medical purposes, as a source for various industries and some are planting it already as an energy source.

[BiGG]

Also, if biowhatever was practical, why aren't the US using it?

That's what I'm wondering. I'm wondering when these technologies will become widescale...

WHY weren’t we using it? Because of the glut of super cheap oil in the last two decades and advancements in technology have made it practical now. EROEI figures just a decade ago were not as good but that is different now and they are + politics, politics, politics = oil & gas are very powerful in Washington. Oil & Gas are also subsidized by Washington to the tune of billions of $ per year also! We are getting screwed plain and simple.

These technologies are becoming wide scale quickly now. Ethanol for instance took 10 years to see its first billion gallon annual production in the United States ……. Another ten years to see its second billion gallon annual production, and only two years to see its third billion. Many more plants are being built right now and many have just been announced…..

In 2004 we produced 3.41 billion gallons =

A 21% increase in production from 2003

A 109% increase in production since 2000
Construction of 12 new plants completed in 2004 + expansions at existing plants = another 500 million gallons per year now making over 3.6 billion gallons.

At the end of 2004, 16 plants and 2 major expansions were under construction, representing an additional 750 million gallons per year
I listed these two articles showing another 400 million gallons per year just announced by two companies alone and many more are coming …. This is just Ethanol in the United States, look at what is happening around the world so far also ……………..

2004 World Ethanol Production ..........

Brazil 3.98 billion + United States 3.53 billion + China 964 million + India 462 million + France 219 million + Russia 110 million + South Africa 110 million + United Kingdom 106 million + Saudi Arabia 79 million + Spain 79 million + Thailand 74 million + Germany 71 million + Ukraine 66 million + Canada 61 million + Poland 53 million Indonesia 44 + Argentina 42 million + Italy 40 million + Australia 33 million + Japan 31 million + Pakistan 26 million + Sweden 26 million + Philippines 22 million + South Korea 22 million + Guatemala 17 million +Cuba 16 million + Ecuador 12 million + Mexico 9 million + Nicaragua 8 million + Mauritius 6 million + Zimbabwe 6 million Kenya 3 million + Swaziland 3 million + All others not listed 338 million!

[BiGG]

The "oil" they will use to plant etc is the oil they will be growing themselves for starters ....

Please provide the mathematics behind this statement.

..pause..

I knew you couldn't do it.

E = 1/(1-X)

where X is the fraction of energy required to create the energy.

For example, if X=0.75, which is ambitious for ethanol, we get E=4. This means we will have to use up 4 times the ethanol than we normally would had we used some other energy source (i.e. petroleum) to get one unit out.

I see a head exploding right around the corner.

DUH! WebHubble! At the beginning of this thread there is a link debunking all of the ignorance you keep putting forth here so how about you educate yourself a pinch first and return with something intelligent for a change.

I just humiliated you in another thread by exposing the ridiculous ignorance you were putting forth regarding Canadian forests and now you are trying to look “smart” here with this! Sorry again but you just don’t have a basic clue sweetie.

See if you can do something about that starting with setting your wacky little eighth grade math problems aside long enough to get a basic grasp on what we are talking about and after that I will help you with your little math thingy ……..k sweetheart?

[BiGG]

F*ck that, I'd rather use any remaining land to grow food than waste time with this desperate shit.

Maybe this will help you get a little better grasp on what we are talking about because the only “desperate shit” being put forth here is that by those with no clue ……start here ….

Quote: “Ethanol production consumes the grain’s STARCH, the protein, minerals, fat and fiber are concentrated during the production process to produce a highly valued and nutritious livestock feed.

The majority of feed is then dried and sold as Distillers Dried Grains with Solubles (DDGS). However, approximately 20-25% of the feed is shipped wet locally, reducing energy input costs and providing another market for producers.
Historically, over 85% of DDGS has been fed to dairy and beef cattle, swine and poultry, and now dog & cat food.” Last year we EXPORTED 700,000 metric tones of DDGS!

You get Ethanol + Animal Feed + Organic Soil Nutrients from the same ear corn or grain or whatever is being used!

Below is a look at just Ethanol, remember we have Coal, Nuclear, Methane, Solar, Wind, Hydrogen etc. etc.

Using readily available high mileage gas powered cars, hybrids, & electrics lets say we are soon getting 40-60 MPG instead of 15-20 like we have now….


Current gasoline consumption cut 35-50% =

Currently 11.7% of our corn production goes to domestic Ethanol =

Currently 18.5% of our corn production that was exported now added to Ethanol production instead =

Currently 11.7% of our grain sorghum production goes to domestic Ethanol =

Currently 41% of our grain sorghum production that was exported now added to Ethanol production instead =

Current land used for other exports now added to Ethanol production instead =

Current unused BIOMASS WASTE now used for Ethanol production =

[Battle_Scarred_Galactico]

Do you honestly think that food production and distribution can be run on this ?

[BiGG]

Do you honestly think that food production and distribution can be run on this ?

Yes I absolutely do …..but with a disclaimer. It seems everybody is looking for a one fix solution but the future is a combination of things and that’s why I have been saying since the beginning that focusing solely on one of the new era replacements or it's EROEI numbers is absurd. We are building a replacement for dirty, filthy oil already and it has nothing to do with “known” oil reserves being at the half way point.

The first thing you should do is forget about others EROEI numbers unless they are being honest and showing you the whole picture instead of editing out the important parts.

Oil may sound wonderful on its own but look at this, how much energy is used just in the United States for:

$100 billion annually = Uncompensated environmental and health costs (minimum) = Ouch!
$125 billion annually = Economic disruption cost = Ouch!
$*49 billion annually = Defense subsidy (military just protecting oil alone in the Middle East!) = Ouch!
$**5 billion annually = Direct and tax subsidies (this includes coal) = Ouch!

That is a lot if energy being used (and costing you and me a lot of money besides that could be paying the national debt) that's not reflected in others EROEI statistics and you still need to add in how much energy is used for transporting oil to this country, then refining it, and then transporting it all over the country instead of refining Ethanol in every state. PLUS we sent another $122 billion overseas last year to buy it!

Now Ethanol suddenly gets much cheaper and we don't need as much along with using/building other oil replacements like I mentioned before like Current Waste, Coal, Hydrogen, Solar, Wind, Nuclear, Methane etc. Most importantly, look at the efficient engines and such we already have that will cut our consumption drastically alone. You add this all up and yes, things will be just fine imo.

Don’t forget, with Ethanol you use corn or grain for fuel and what’s left is made into animal feed, & fertilizer. The same acre of land makes all three at once!

[Agren]

BiGG:
What you are talking about here sounds good enough. There are issues with renewables, maybe solvable, maybe not. But your last post here is boardering naive, I'd say (not in an insulting way, mind you ). Your facts are probably more or less correct, the problem is big buisness. There is too much money involved in oil and war to change it easily. Just because we can (if indeed we can) use ethanol and other things does not mean we will. At least not until we are in bad shape.

Now, I'm not a doomer, whatever that means, but I firmly belive we will see depression, and a bad one.

[uNkNowN ElEmEnt]

To answer the question of why it hasn't gone mainstream I would like to answer that it has. I did a google search and the first thing that came up without any hunting around was this link. Its to the map on Pacific Biofuels web site to show where you can find retail refueling stations (you know like gas stations only not)

I would also like to add that as long as you have a lighter engine that is fairly economical you can convert it to use alcohol quite easily, I have a book on it and can't wait until we can do the conversion on my car.

[BiGG]

BiGG:
What you are talking about here sounds good enough. There are issues with renewables, maybe solvable, maybe not. But your last post here is boardering naive, I'd say (not in an insulting way, mind you ). Your facts are probably more or less correct, the problem is big buisness. There is too much money involved in oil and war to change it easily. Just because we can (if indeed we can) use ethanol and other things does not mean we will. At least not until we are in bad shape.

Now, I'm not a doomer, whatever that means, but I firmly belive we will see depression, and a bad one.

Big business like railroads and ocean liners of yore mocked and laughed at all the little auto & airplane advocates nipping at their heals ….. before ya knew it though, autos & airplanes were big business and railroads & ocean liners were reduced to plow horse status.

The epitome of big business today is energy as it’s the largest growth sector on the planet currently and oil is king, however, as much as the titans of oil laugh & mock at the little bio-solar-wind segments nipping at their heals ….. before ya know it, the oil titans will be begging to even have you look in their direction just like the railroads & ocean liners did in the past.

I wrote that in another thread and think that is just exactly what you are seeing today with oil. As I also mentioned, that old nasty shit was on its way out just because its old nasty shit, not because we are at the half way point of known reserves. Its dirty, it’s screwing up our environment, its killing US, and its past time it goes ….. look around the planet and that’s what you are seeing right now …. Bio & natural along with lovely things like nuclear are the future and antiquated oil is seeing more nails in its coffin daily. The new economy is being built right now with its replacement. We are in the infancy of its replacement but look at the huge gains we are making in the last few years alone. Rich countries lead the way with development models making change affordable for others that are not so rich.

Depression? Maybe, but not because of an oil shortage, maybe disease or war. Recession is possible also but I see enough growth around the world to keep us out of either. The industrial world is switching to eco and the current non-industrial world is going to be built eco so I think we are in for bright sunny skies along the way.

[bobcousins]

There is a special report in The Economist on biofuels, it is premium content online but I buy the paper copy.

It has some interesting stuff, which I wasn't aware of, for example the amount of blending that already goes on. I think the conclusion is that it is slightly cheaper than gas without any subsidy. As for removing dependence on Johnny Foreigner, ethanol from Brazil is a lot cheaper but is subject to a 54% import tariff. (Typical US free market hypocrisy there).

[PeakKYJelly]

The idiots are the people whose attitude is "Oh, us stupid humans. When shall we ever learn? We're all going to die from Peak Oil, and we have it coming to us." They remind me of the geniuses whose predictions were the following:

"Man will never harness the power of the atom."
"There won't be a need for more than a dozen computers worldwide."
"Who needs more than 640K memory"?

[WebHubbleTelescope]

Factor of 4 overhead, baby.

Live by the numbers, die by the numbers.