[BiGG]

QUESTION: Is BiGG really an idiot? Why how could he be that stupid? What’s with all of his “Techno crap will save US”?

ANSWER: I thought I told you Bio baby! Weren’t you listening?

Ethanol = Booze = Bio = BioWASTE = Weeds = Potatoes = Corn = Grain = Trees = Paper Mill Waste = Grapes = Agricultural & Forestry Wastes = Garbage = you can just about name it, what’s very old is very new again. Bio + Electric is your future!

The United States is finally switching back to where it should have been all along (read the article if you want to see where we got screwed bad by the oil industry) and produced 3,41 billion gallons of Ethanol last year and the numbers are climbing rapidly with many, many new plants being announced & built right now!

Wanna see where many oil advocates got all of their misinformation? Wanna see where EROEI arguments are ridiculous when talking about running things like your car? Wanna see a very old car that could run on gasoline, alcohol, or kerosene (kerosene is basically diesel fuel)? That car is a Ford Model T!

Wanna see where “BIO” can and has been working for 100+ years and how we are getting screwed by using Middle Eastern Oil when we have an abundance of bio that could be making US rich instead! We are changing our bad habits back right now and putting money back into our economy instead of the Middle East.

This should be one of the most fascinating & enlightening articles you’ve ever read!

The Fuel of the Future by Professor Bill Kovarik, Ph.D.

This is How We Will Have Clean Air & Get Rich

Same Artical in PDF Format Here

"Henry Ford told a New York Times reporter that ethyl alcohol was "the fuel of the future" in 1925 = There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years."

Grain is not "used" for fuel; it is fed to cattle after it is distilled with no loss in food value. This is as true of brewers' grains from beer distilleries as it is of fuel facilities. (We have over 120 million cows is the USA alone and this “used” grain can be used for pigs, chickens, returned to the soil etc.))

“During the 1890 – 1914 time period, German, French and British scientists and government officials were worried about the longevity of oil reserves and the unpredictable nature of oil supplies from Russia and America……”

“Most popular cars, such as the Ford Model T, had low compression engines, an adjustable carburetor and a spark advance that made it possible to switch from gasoline to alcohol to kerosene as needed….”

Despite Ford's later support for alcohol fuel in the 1920s and 1930s …….."

“ …by 1906 ten percent of the engines being produced by the firm's parent company in Germany were designed to run on pure ethyl alcohol, while one third of the heavy locomotives produced at the Deutz Gas engine works of Germany ran on pure ethyl alcohol…..”

“By the mid-1920s ethyl alcohol was routinely blended with gasoline in every industrialized nation except the United States. Ten to twenty five percent alcohol blends with gasoline were common in Scandinavian countries, where alcohol was made from paper mill wastes; in France, Germany and throughout continental Europe, where alcohol was made from surplus grapes, potatoes and other crops; and in Australia, Brazil, Cuba, Hawaii, the Philippians, South Africa, and other tropical regions, where it was made from sugar cane and molasses. In some countries, especially France, gasoline retailers were required to blend in large volumes of alcohol with all gasoline sold. Germany, Brazil and others also followed the "mandatory blending" model. In other countries, such as Sweden, Ireland and Britain, alcohol blends received tax advantages….”

“Alcohol fuels advocacy among American farmers was present in the 1906 – 1908 period and again in the 1930s. Scientists and engineers in the U.S. and Europe ranged from neutral to enthusiastic about the clean burning, high compression characteristics of alcohol fuel, yet the U.S. oil industry claimed …..”

“If there is an historical lesson to learn from the "fuel of the future," it is that technology is often political. In this case, fuel technology developed in a direction that was a matter of policy choice and not predetermined by any clear advantage of one technology over another.”

“Modern researchers have noted that the value of alcohol as a fuel depends on whether it is considered a gasoline substitute or an octane enhancer. "If refiners turn to using alcohols as octane enhancers as lead phasedown occurs, there may be sufficient demand to warrant the capital outlay required for production facilities, in which case the market value of alcohol fuels would become much greater," according to the Canadian Energy Research Institute…..”

“USDA tests in 1906 also demonstrated the efficiency of alcohol in engines and described how gasoline engines could be modified for higher power with pure alcohol fuel or for equivalent fuel consumption, depending on the need.63 The U.S. Geological Service and the U.S. Navy performed 2000 tests on alcohol and gasoline engines in 1907 and 1908 in Norfolk, Va. and St. Louis, Mo. They found that much higher engine compression ratios could be achieved with alcohol than with gasoline.”

“By 1860, thousands of distilleries churned out at least 90 million gallons of alcohol per year for….”

“By one 1906 account, some 72,000 German distilleries operated, of which 57,000 were small farm "Materialbrennereien" stills producing a total of 27 million gallons.47 Another account, from 1914, put the number at 6,000 distilleries producing 66 million gallons of alcohol per year……”

[Jack]

Ah, yes, Professor Bill Kovarik, Ph.D.

And who is this fellow who will save us? What is his background?

He earned his Ph.D. in Public Communication, College of Journalism, University of Maryland.

Not in a science - not chemistry, nor physics.

And what papers has he published? You can see a list HERE. They don't deal with energy much.

And when we look at the one NSF funded publication - one that deals not with energy, but with education about energy - we find that Professor Kovarik has no answers. He merely offers questions.

You can see them in the blue panel on the left at This Location

He asks a salient question:

ENERGY BALANCE: Does it take more fossil energy to produce ethanol than ethanol itself delivers? Expert views vary considerably, but if so, ethanol would not be renewable, and thus would not help counteract global warming.

Ahh, if only an answer were forthcoming!

Numbers? We don't need no stinkin' numbers!

[BiGG]

Hold your horses there Jack! Don’t shoot the messenger just because he isn’t an expert on everything on the planet like some try to pass themselves off as! This information linked is fact including background information & many, many sources WHO ARE experts in these fields in question! It makes me wonder why you have to be so negative about everything all the time, is negativity blinding you to all the factual information this messenger has provided you?

What do you think about lawyers writing books about oil btw?



Education? We don’t need no stinkin’ education unless it supports doom!

[cube]

You know it's kinda funny when I moved my pointer over the link and saw the phrase "hempfarm.org" in the status bar of my browser the article lost any hope of credibility. Most articles lose their credibility in the first paragraph but this one lost it without me having to even bother visiting the site. Now that's a record!



I'm sorry but I just can't make myself click on that link.

[BiGG]

You know it's kinda funny when I moved my pointer over the link and saw the phrase "hempfarm.org" in the status bar of my browser the article lost any hope of credibility. Most articles lose their credibility in the first paragraph but this one lost it without me having to even bother visiting the site. Now that's a record!



I'm sorry but I just can't make myself click on that link.

So read the PDF file instead where you will see nonstop fascinating factsfrom scientists & experts all over the world quoted.

[Jack]

You know it's kinda funny when I moved my pointer over the link and saw the phrase "hempfarm.org" in the status bar of my browser the article lost any hope of credibility. Most articles lose their credibility in the first paragraph but this one lost it without me having to even bother visiting the site. Now that's a record!



I'm sorry but I just can't make myself click on that link.

A wise decision. Please note the date from the abstract:

Abstract

The fuel of the future, according to inventor Henry Ford and General Motors' scientist Charles F. Kettering, was ethyl alcohol made from farm products and cellulosic materials. Henry Ford's outright support culminated with the the Dearborn, Mich. "Chemurgy" conferences in the 1930s. Little is known about Kettering's interest in ethyl alcohol fuel and how it fit into G.M.'s long term strategy. Moreover, aside from the Chemurgy conferences and a brief period of commercial alcohol-gasoline sales in the Midwest during the 1930s, very little is known about the technological, economic and political context of alcohol fuels use. This paper examines that context, including the competition between lamp fuels in the 19th century; the scientific studies about alcohol as a fuel in the early 20th century; the development of "ethyl" leaded gasoline as a bridge to the "fuel of the future" in the 1920s; the worldwide use of alcohol - gasoline blends in the 1920s and 30s; and the eventual emergence of the farm "Chemurgy" movement and its support for alcohol fuel in the 1930s.

Worse, the paper deals with the use of lead additives as opposed to ethanol. The fundamental issue - is ethanol a viable replacement for oil - is never addressed.

Numbers? We don't need no stinkin' numbers!

[BiGG]

ENERGY BALANCE: Does it take more fossil energy to produce ethanol than ethanol itself delivers? Expert views vary considerably, but if so, ethanol would not be renewable, and thus would not help counteract global warming.

Oh, by the way Jack ….. I already debunked your assertion claiming ethanol takes more energy to produce then it gives back, so I hope you update your information base and start telling others how ethanol has POSITIVE EROEI numbers in the future.

You can learn about POSITIVE EROEI numbers for Ethanol on these links ......

American Society of Agricultural Engineers

We show that corn ethanol is energy efficient, as indicated by an energy output/input ratio of 1.34 and 1.53 under a best–case scenario.

United States Department of Agriculture

The energy ratio is 1.57 and 1.77 for wet- and dry-milling, respectively, and the weighted average energy ratio is 1.67.

Lots more on this USDA search page

Remember now, with a little Nuclear, Coal, Solar, Methane, Wind etc. you can make a LOT of Ethanol out of current WASTE product and other things like corn & grains and did you see where the corn & grain is used for animal feed afterward? How Cool eh?

[BiGG]

Worse, the paper deals with the use of lead additives as opposed to ethanol. The fundamental issue - is ethanol a viable replacement for oil - is never addressed.

WOW! Jack! The article is showing the viable history of Ethanol and why we are currently using Middle Eastern oil instead of it! Are a spokesman from the Saudi Embassy or something here? That article would only be trashed by someone from there in my opinion. The article also shows many other things like how alcohol/ethanol works just as well as gas in internal combustion engines!


Education? we don’t need no stinkin’ education unless it supports doom!

[bobcousins]

This is an article about the history of biofuel. The quote is like the "future of mankind is living undersea/in space".

QUESTION: Is BiGG really an idiot?

Yup. Every new post confirms it.

[Jack]

You can learn about POSITIVE EROEI numbers for Ethanol on these links ......

American Society of Agricultural Engineers

We show that corn ethanol is energy efficient, as indicated by an energy output/input ratio of 1.34 and 1.53 under a best–case scenario.

Key words: best-case scenario.

The lottery player wins every time - under a best-case scenario.

[BiGG]

You can learn about POSITIVE EROEI numbers for Ethanol on these links ......

American Society of Agricultural Engineers

We show that corn ethanol is energy efficient, as indicated by an energy output/input ratio of 1.34 and 1.53 under a best–case scenario.

Key words: best-case scenario.

The lottery player wins every time - under a best-case scenario.

Jesus Jack! The “high” number is the best case scenario, the low number is STILL positive EROEI! Read that article where you will learn a lot more on how great this is!

[ArimoDave]

You can learn about POSITIVE EROEI numbers for Ethanol on these links ......

American Society of Agricultural Engineers

We show that corn ethanol is energy efficient, as indicated by an energy output/input ratio of 1.34 and 1.53 under a best–case scenario.

Key words: best-case scenario.

The lottery player wins every time - under a best-case scenario.

Jesus Jack! The “high” number is the best case scenario, the low number is STILL positive EROEI! Read that article where you will learn a lot more on how great this is!

I would like to read the article, but I can't justify $8.50 just now to get a copy. All my funds are going toward textbooks, tuition, food and rent.

The abstract does little to enlighten the issue.

ArimoDave

[basketballjones]

biowhatever is an enticing hoax for a few reasons

Wanna see where many oil advocates got all of their misinformation? Wanna see where EROEI arguments are ridiculous when talking about running things like your car? Wanna see a very old car that could run on gasoline, alcohol, or kerosene (kerosene is basically diesel fuel)? That car is a Ford Model T!

but suffice to say it takes more energy to create the biowhatever than you get from burning it. the reason oil exists is because the sun provided this energy over millions of years. This is an immutable physical law.

Also, if biowhatever was practical, why aren't the US using it?

[Ludi]

Also, if biowhatever was practical, why aren't the US using it?

That's what I'm wondering. I'm wondering when these technologies will become widescale...

[WebHubbleTelescope]

shorter BIGG: "nonstop fascinating facts"

[ArimoDave]

BasketballJones and Ludi have a point.

If it were profitable to make biofuels without government subsidies, then these processes would be widespread
and already competing for oil. Many of the alternatives BiGG has posted are sales pitches -- often companies which
are looking for investors. There really haven't been any profitable businesses that I am aware of which make biofuels.

If there are any, will they make a profit when there is no more oil to use to plant, fertilize, and harvest the crops?
This is the fundamental question that we are trying to get you, BiGG, to ask yourself before you post.

ArimoDave

[EddieB]

Several things come to mind in this discussion.

1. There is (probably, depending on the refining process) a way to grow ethanol with a positive EROIE, but it doesn't involve heavy machines like tractors and combines, or petrochemical fertilizers and insecticides. Thinking this way it becomes obvious that plant based fuels may play an essential role in the economy of the future, but only the super rich will be driving cars on them. Common folk will be glad when they can save enough for the scooter or the chainsaw...

2. Trying to run the modern global economy on plant based fuels would be insane. We already have major issues with declining forest health, topsoil loss and degradation, salinazation of irrigated lands, and pressure for FOOD crops. Even if the economy could be made much more efficient than it currently is, and have production of biofuels ramped up quickly we'd just hit Peak Topsoil in few years.

3. Ethanol and Biodiesel are awesome. Just don't expect them to save your butt when PO SHTF because they're not going to.

[BiGG]

BasketballJones and Ludi have a point.

If it were profitable to make biofuels without government subsidies, then these processes would be widespread
and already competing for oil. Many of the alternatives BiGG has posted are sales pitches -- often companies which
are looking for investors. There really haven't been any profitable businesses that I am aware of which make biofuels.

If there are any, will they make a profit when there is no more oil to use to plant, fertilize, and harvest the crops?
This is the fundamental question that we are trying to get you, BiGG, to ask yourself before you post.

ArimoDave

Read the link at the beginning of this thread and you will see why we are using foreign oil instead of domestic and why we are changing back more so now!

The "oil" they will use to plant etc is the oil they will be growing themselves for starters ....


Have you guys been paying attention as to what current oil is costing US? Did you see the amounts of subsidies oil & gas is getting? Read this link and I think you will see bio is NOT going to cost US $5.28 per gallon!

Energy Wars -- Foreign and Domestic

[basketballjones]

if we can exclude economics from the equation and delude ourselves that it will cost absolutely nothing to retrofit the entire US personal and industrial transport system - that is, cars and trucks with biowhatever compatible engines then what remains is a simple fact that it takes more energy to produce the biodiesel, the bioethanol, the hemp oil, or whatever it you're talking about. This is still a fact whether it costs $1000000 per liter to produce, or $0.0000001 cents/liter.

This fact is a show stopper for any type of practical and long term application. There's a limited amout of time that society can make the energy losses it will incur.

Initially, the shortfall may be made up by oil, but once the oil becomes scarce do you think that oil producers will want to send us their valuable oil so we can ship a frypan from los angeles to new york, or to drive 45 minutes to drop the kids off at school 15 kilometres away?

[WebHubbleTelescope]

The "oil" they will use to plant etc is the oil they will be growing themselves for starters ....

Please provide the mathematics behind this statement.

..pause..

I knew you couldn't do it.

E = 1/(1-X)

where X is the fraction of energy required to create the energy.

For example, if X=0.75, which is ambitious for ethanol, we get E=4. This means we will have to use up 4 times the ethanol than we normally would had we used some other energy source (i.e. petroleum) to get one unit out.

I see a head exploding right around the corner.