[Zardoz]

First off, most neocons do not call dissenters, "anti-American".

Oh, come on. Of course they do. That's their kneejerk reaction every time. That's always their cheap, shoddy justification for their policies.

[Skulljar]

Sometimes you just have to take the good with the bad.

No! All the time, you must stand up and demand what is good and never falter or stray from that chosen path. This is called honor, courage, and commitment... core values that are seemingly absent among society at large.

[rwwff]

First off, most neocons do not call dissenters, "anti-American".

Oh, come on. Of course they do. That's their kneejerk reaction every time. That's always their cheap, shoddy justification for their policies.

You're buying the stereotype, not the reality.

[Skulljar]

First off, most neocons do not call dissenters, "anti-American". Thats an accusation the media loves to throw about, but it is certainly untrue about most neocons. I would hope that liberals might offer the same presumption of good intentions towards the neocons with whom they disagree.

Perhaps most don't but this one may have:

It seems that anti-americans seem to congregate in gloom and doom sections of the internet whether it be peak oil discussions or bearish investment forums as they are not disturbed and even amenable to a collapse of U.S power.

So everybody is happy with this except for the Anti-U.S crowd which whines and whines about how the U.S gets away with all this on bear market investment boards. They constantly predict and wish for a return to the gold standard and an Argentina style default and it never happens and they've lost money on gold coins since the early 80s even though the U.S money supply has increased by huge amounts.

I imagine that the Larry Silverstein type rebuttal to this would be "I was talking about anti-Americans abroad."

Abe,
Also, I'd like more details on how we'll be able to power through recessions and collapse guided by a free market. Sounds a little like a forced market. What about when you can't afford to pay your mortgage anymore, and it's illegal to own gold? Again, I'm not very gifted with economics but if the economy collapses I don't see a force of hybrid Humvees maintaining hedgemony. Sure we have nuclear subs and carriers- which are not going to put boots on the ground. I don't see how the military will survive recession without further destabilizing the global economy and it's foundations while promoting panic & collapse. I need further logic on your hedgemony plan before I'm sold and ready to mount up.

So maybe it's the threat of leaving China etc. to assert it's presence on the world. So what? Let em. I am all for a US "world police" approach (light on the police brutality and warrantless searches please) before collapse. But if it is collapse on the menu, then let it be a new period of isolationism during & after. Defend our borders. Let's try to repair our image with the "barbarians" now so they will have less reason to fly (flight will be for the rich as you say) to our country and attack us. Marginalize the extremists now. Besides it will be hard for terrorists to significantly hurt us any worse than famine will, if our system collapses. We might be dealing with domestic terrorists well enough.

Maybe we can power down, maintain strategic reserves & production for defense only, and not worry about China. Is it too big a slap in your face to imagine China and India swimming in decades or more worth of cheap oil? Why again is sharing power/domination with them out of the question? Why can't America guide these behemoths to powerdown too and address their human rights issues now? If it's going to be 1850 with nuclear power here and there, I don't think anyone will be knocking our doors down for a while.

It appears we've found ourselves in a situation of mutually assured destruction all over again. We've built a global tower of Babel and it's about to topple. The killing and looting of the global society is not worth it, we're going to end up at point B reguardless, let's not take the barbaric approach to get there.

[rwwff]

Sometimes you just have to take the good with the bad.

No! All the time, you must stand up and demand what is good and never falter or stray from that chosen path. This is called honor, courage, and commitment... core values that are seemingly absent among society at large.

No. There is no "must". There is the health and safety of one's family. There are committments one makes to the survival of a community; but honor and courage went out of fashion long ago, and trying to reclaim them now only causes one to be identified as an extremist to be either dismissed out of hand, or arrested and taken away.

At best, you can hope to be shepherded off to a free speech pen to yell your displeasure at the villian of the day.... from two miles away.

[Skulljar]

Sometimes you just have to take the good with the bad.

No! All the time, you must stand up and demand what is good and never falter or stray from that chosen path. This is called honor, courage, and commitment... core values that are seemingly absent among society at large.

No. There is no "must". There is the health and safety of one's family. There are committments one makes to the survival of a community; but honor and courage went out of fashion long ago, and trying to reclaim them now only causes one to be identified as an extremist to be either dismissed out of hand, or arrested and taken away.

At best, you can hope to be shepherded off to a free speech pen to yell your displeasure at the villian of the day.... from two miles away.

What are you talking about man? Do you despise humanity? Is this what neocons feel beneath the surface? Is this absolute atheisim? Do you refuse god AND MAN as having a possibility of existence? Honor and courage are not dead! Semper Fi! At the best, I or someone like me can hope to be a leader of men with these crazy virtues of yore; at the least I can sleep well at night. Commitments to survival do not have to involve moral ambiguity. I refuse to do whats easy or political in spite of whats RIGHT. If you and everyone else would follow these principles, I would not "be an extremist." What happened to America? What happened to

The Project for the New American Century is dedicated to a few fundamental propositions: that American leadership is good both for America and for the world; and commitment to moral principle. (abridged)

You say honor and courage are dead in America but you want America to rule the world and secure itself as the eternal superpower? To perpetuate our society?

There is "must." Its duty, obligation, backbone, intestinal fortitude, it's hard and it's messy. But god damn it makes us human! It gives us hope. You and I may not have "faith," but we can have hope.

Like a good leader, I have led my family to understand that survival is paramount, but humanity is ultimate. My family is ready to stand up for what is right, whether that be against christians getting thrown in furnaces, blacks forced to the back of the bus, or genocide.

What is the price of your soul? Not the spiritual soul- but your moral fibre. At what point do you take the pants off the bully in your face and suck him off? At what point do you wet yourself and cower in the corner?

[rwwff]

No. There is no "must". There is the health and safety of one's family. There are committments one makes to the survival of a community; but honor and courage went out of fashion long ago, and trying to reclaim them now only causes one to be identified as an extremist to be either dismissed out of hand, or arrested and taken away.

At best, you can hope to be shepherded off to a free speech pen to yell your displeasure at the villian of the day.... from two miles away.

What are you talking about man? Do you despise humanity? Is this what neocons feel beneath the surface? Is this why you are atheist? Do you refuse god AND MAN as having a possibility of existence?

Do I despise humanity? No.
I'm not a neocon.
I'm not atheist, I'm a gloomy, doom anticipating, Catholic.
God certainly exists.
I'm typing, so I know there is at least one man in existance.

Honor and courage are not dead! Semper Fi! At the best, I or someone like me can hope to be a leader of men with these crazy virtues of yore; at the least I can sleep well at night.

At best. Yes. Likely... no.

Commitments to survival do not have to involve moral ambiguity. I refuse to do whats easy or political in spite of whats RIGHT. If you and everyone else would follow these principles, I would not "be an extremist." What happened to America?

That is a good question, what has happened to America? We've turned into a giant pile of paper pushers.

You say honor and courage are dead in America but you want America to rule the world and secure itself as the eternal superpower? To perpetuate our society?

I'm not a neocon. I don't think neocons are particularly evil or anything; and they are certainly no worse than other groups of political idealogues. They are fairly consistent and determined to achieve their objectives, which is more than I can say for many.

There is "must." Its duty, obligation, backbone, intestinal fortitude,

Those I do just fine. But they are different than honor or courage; and my obligation is to my family and to a different degree to my local community.

What is the price of your soul? Not the spiritual soul- but your moral fibre. At what point do you take the pants off the bully in your face and suck him off? At what point do you wet yourself and cower in the corner?

Actually, at that point, courage is irrelevant; the bully likely means to kill you anyway, so the most effective tactic is fight or flight while you are still able. As flight is outside the realm of the physically possible for me, and I'm well suited to pursue the fight, I'm likely to lay into the bully. But I see no reason to call that courage.

[Skulljar]

sorry RWRTTFRR i wrote that entire last post thinking you were Abe.

[BigTex]

I think the real question the initial post in this thread was trying to answer was: "How in the world did OUR OIL ever get under THEIR SAND in the first place?"

[Scactha]

I refuse to do whats easy or political in spite of whats RIGHT. If you and everyone else would follow these principles, I would not "be an extremist." What happened to America?

Dualism sure is comfortable but it craves recognition and the post modern world is beyond that.

[Keith_McClary]

I think the real question the initial post in this thread was trying to answer was: "How in the world did OUR OIL ever get under THEIR SAND in the first place?"

If it was under good real estate you would have stolen it hundreds of years ago.

[ballad]

Why are we discussing a failed political orientation?

Look at the two wars the neocons have waged and look at the state of the US economy after they had a little play.

'nuff said

cheers
ballad

[Doly]

Why are we discussing a failed political orientation?

I love that expression. "I suffer from a failed political orientation, darling."

[rwwff]

Why are we discussing a failed political orientation?

Look at the two wars the neocons have waged and look at the state of the US economy after they had a little play.

Wishful thinking there I think. "Failed political orientation" might be a valid concept if they can't manage to keep the White House in 2008, and fail to regain it in 2012. Till then, the jury is out.

As to state of the economy... For the moment, we've got reasonable growth, low inflation, low unemployment, so on the surface things look pretty darn good. Granted, what we need to achieve for sustainability is negative growth, high inflation, and low unemployment; but that is a much tougher nut to crack, and if a Republican attempted it, yall'd claim he or she was destroying the economy as opposed to adapting to the realities of peak oil.

Do you want economic growth or not.

[MD]

Do you want economic growth or not?

A plateau for 18 months followed by a 3% steady decline would be nice.

[rwwff]

Do you want economic growth or not?

A plateau for 18 months followed by a 3% steady decline would be nice.

I agree, but whoever achieved such a thing would be absolutely destroyed as a politician; couldn't get elected Dog Catcher.

That is sorta the heart of my discontent with the "movement" aspects of PO; the objective would destroy the objective and its achiever. So who is going to be this person that is going to say, "Elect me President, I promise to induce a mild recession and keep us there until we arive at a sustainable rate of consumption."

[MD]

Do you want economic growth or not?

A plateau for 18 months followed by a 3% steady decline would be nice.

I agree, but whoever achieved such a thing would be absolutely destroyed as a politician; couldn't get elected Dog Catcher.

That is sorta the heart of my discontent with the "movement" aspects of PO; the objective would destroy the objective and its achiever. So who is going to be this person that is going to say, "Elect me President, I promise to induce a mild recession and keep us there until we arive at a sustainable rate of consumption."

Exactly! This is why no matter who is in political control of this country, relentless growth will be the agenda. Grow until we crash very hard.

The United States has reached the end of this democratic experiment. We are doomed due to the franchised public voting themselves "bread and circuses."

[NEOPO]

I believe that mankind or the majority of mankind can be convinced of almost anything.
As long as mankind has what it believes to be "good data" the subject matter is of secondary importance.

Neocons prove this daily while other neocons suggest that it would be fruitless to alert the populous.

Seems self serving yet what do we expect from capitolists?

Justification?a lie?
No its something like this:
The roof is on fire and will collapse in 1 minute.
If I tell people it will cause panic thereby lessening my chances of survival.

Now we may be able to put the fire out.
People might not panic but help each other
The roof might not collapse in 1 minute
Your chances for survival might increase by alerting the others who may have knowledge of fire extinguisher locations, other exits etc etc.

Its 100% Me logic - it got us into this mess and will not get us out no matter how many similar brains you managed to convert memically to this same illogic.

all those borg episodes yet you still dont get it?;-)

[rwwff]

Don't get me wrong NEOPO, I'd love to see a DEMOCRAT try that logic; it'd make an honest up or down vote and force people to decide openly whether they want to fight resource wars or not.

Democrat - as above, induce recession, high gas taxes, abandon the ME, sustainability, improve the environment, localize, etc.

Republican - growth or death, we fight, we stay with Israel, and we try to establish a new energy source before the oil really starts petering out.

Chance of us seeing *THAT* are next to nil, and I fear America might choose to go to war. As it is, politicians prefer catering to the squishy middle, and the squishy middle does not appreciate being poked in any way, shape, or fashion.

[venky]

I think if that if people were made aware of the issues at stake and what needed to be done was clear; those at the top took responsibility and any pain from the transistion was distributed as equitably as possible, I do think the majority of the public would accept it.

Unfortunately with all the disinformation, vested interests and blind greed today, the chance of that happening is not good. I think its a failure of our current cultural and economic system as opposed to human nature.