[Shaved Monkey]

Thanks for the clarifications, careinke. (Of course, it is technically possible to have animals in the system and not eat them, or do so only rarely.)

A permaculture system would collapse if you kept every male cow, male chicken,male pig or male rabbit.
Or if you kept every old animal that only ate and didn't produce eggs or offspring .
It would also collapse if it didn't have animals manuring, digging,hauling and performing pest control and providing protein and fat.
My rubbish bin has just a few plastic bags in it, they would fit into less than a quarter of a bucket. (its a work in progress to reduce that).
Im happy with my efforts to reduce my resource use,so far but I am working on turning off one fridge and cooking more meals with sticks in a rocket stove.
Cucina Povera (Peasant food) is the theme here,we are coming up with creative recipes to use whats growing in the garden.
Its fun and delicious.
Ive got tonnes of pulses and there still producing more.

[GregT]

dohboi,

At this point in time there isn't a hope in hell of averting a global catastrophe. We are only starting to see the effects of climate change. It is believed that the lag time between CO2 accumulations and temperature rise is about 40 years. We are now seeing the effects from the 70s, before we really ramped up global emissions. With 7 billion people and growing exponentially, a tiny minority is not going to make any difference at all. Only wishful thinking.

That being said, my wife and I are 54 and 55, and we have decided to opt out. We are taking an early retirement this spring, and are moving to a far more rural location. We both experienced a more self sufficient lifestyle growing up, and are well versed in gardening, hunting, fishing, and food preservation. We are both looking forward to greatly lowering our environmental footprint, and hope to leave a legacy for our children. The least we can do is try.

Our first priorities when we relocate will be solar water heating, a PV system, a large water cistern for collecting rainwater for irrigation, and an efficient wood burning stove for both heating and cooking. We have plenty of firewood available, as well as deer, elk, and lots of salmon in the fall. We also have a year round stream at the back of the property, so micro-hydro is also an option. My wife already has work lined up and her commute will remain about the same as now, but we plan on replacing her 2010 Honda Civic with something even more fuel efficient. Myself, I plan on using a small street legal dirt bike as my primary means of transportation.

The home we are moving into has just over 1/3 of the square footage as the house that we will be leaving behind. I obviously haven't figured out our changes in efficiencies yet, but I hope we can at least achieve a 30% reduction in our fossil fuels usage right off the bat.

We are going to do our best to do our part, at the very least in may give us some piece of mind. Sadly, IMVHO, I don't see much hope for most, if not all of humanity in the future, short of an alien invasion, or divine intervention. Again, that isn't going to stop us from trying.

[ChilPhil1986]

I'm not going to outright disagree with the hypothesis that 7+ million people cannot live with meats in their diets. I will, however, critique the eating habits of a sad majority of Americans who don't use the whole damn animal. Offal, cuts heavy in connective tissue and bones all have excellent nutrient profiles. They also tend to be cheap if not free to acquire. Why? Frighteningly few actually know how to prepare them to the point of delection and/or don't even bother to try them. I feel this is a huge x-factor in the global food chain we live in nowadays. I actually bought a whole chicken last week for the first time, and holy Jove, the stock I made out of the carcass after stripping the meat off was amazing. Even the extra fat can be used in making soap if you're really stretched for supplies (beef fat AKA tallow is better for making the hard bar soap though). I make no claim to knowing everything, but it is my belief that there is as much survival skill to learn in throwing away less as there is in acquiring land and prepping a doomfront.

[dohboi]

Thanks, Greg. That's inspiring.

ChilPhil, I meant that 7 million can't live at the level of average (much less 'above' average!) American meat eaters.

But good point about waste. Food waste in general happens on so many levels and at such vast scales that it is truly sickening. In most traditional cultures, there is very little that is wasted of the animal.

[ChilPhil1986]

I'm not going to outright disagree with the hypothesis that 7+ million people cannot live...

Edit fail. 7+ BILLION sounds way more dire. I'll go with that.

[Newfie]

Interesting conversation. Some randome thoughts and comments.

I'll ne retiring in Dec2015 at 65. I work part time now. Wife will np be 63 and still wants to work. Go figure.

I walk to work and she works at home, half the apt is her office leaving us with a one br, one bath apt. 1887 house we own. We have three renters apts. that will provide retirement income.

Hopefully when we retire we move aboard the boat and move South where we don't need heat or AC. We don't use AC (or have TV) now here in Philly.

So one the surface we will be living a lower energy lifestyle. On the otherhand, the house will still exist, we will rent out out apt. Apt, and in summation, nothing will change. What are we to do with our existing un insulated, brick walled, no stud house? Tear it down? I think not, even if we were allowed to, which we are not being on a historic district.

So even thought we move to a energy self sufficient abode, the sail boat, nothing changes.

What we HAVE done is to buy 168 acres of forest that we are sitting on, keeping from being clear cut. That is our contribution to fighting cc. If everyone did as we did there would be no problem, simply because there is t that much land to go around. It would all be sequestered. So that is a real contribution towards a solution.

I don't know how to compare that with being vegan, my gut says it compares favorably.

I don't understand why others don't do something similar.

[dohboi]

Nice points, Newf. Of course not everyone has the do-re-mi to buy that kind of real estate. But you do point out that, even though infrastructure and other issues can make us feel 'stuck' in a resource depleting system, there are always ways to make a difference.

[dohboi]

Economists, scientists, and even the current Pope, and Catholic Bishops from every continent, are calling for an end to capitalism. They see this new paradigm as positive, not destructive. Eminently doable. And already underway.

Worried about the shit hitting the fan on climate change and other major crises? Good. Because those crises prove that we have an unprecedented opportunity to change the world.
...
Far from being all doom and gloom, continuing global economic fragility is symptomatic of a fundamental shift in the very nature of civilization itself. The new era of slow growth and austerity has emerged because the biosphere is forcing us to adapt to the consequences of breaching environmental limits.
...
This fundamental shift has also brought about significant changes that offer profound opportunities for systemic transformation that could benefit humanity and the planet. These five interlinked revolutions in information, food, energy, finance and ethics are opening up opportunities for communities to co-create new ways of being that work for everyone. This year we could discover that the very disruption of capitalism itself is part of a major tipping point in the transition to a new post-industrial, post-capitalist paradigm.


THE INFORMATION REVOLUTION...

The world is currently, quite clearly, at the dawn of a huge technological revolution in information that has already in the space of a few years transformed the way we do things, and is pitched to trigger ongoing changes in coming decades.

THE ENERGY REVOLUTION...

Seba told me that conventional EROIE calculations are potentially misleading because they ignore critical costs and externalities, especially in land and water usage, waste and pollution. Applying the concept of Energy Payback Time (EPBT) to photovoltaic (PV) solar panels—where EPBT is how long it takes to produce the same quantity of energy that was used to create and install the panels—Seba notes that recent thin film technologies will pay back this energy in around just one year. After that point, effectively, energy is generated for free. If a thin film panel produces energy for 25 years, then its EROIE is 25. “This is far higher than the published results for most forms of energy today, including oil, gas, wind, and nuclear,” Seba said....

THE FOOD REVOLUTION...

With global food prices at record levels in the context of these challenges, combined with the pressures of climate-induced extreme weather, volatile oil prices, and speculation by investors, the incentive to develop greater resilience in locally accessible food production is also growing....

THE FINANCE REVOLUTION...

The information, food and energy revolutions are being facilitated by a burgeoning revolution in finance. Once again, the emerging trend is for new models that give greater power to the crowd, and undermine the authority and legitimacy—and even necessity—of the traditional, centralized banking infrastructure....

THE ETHICAL REVOLUTION...

The old and new paradigms can be clearly related to two quite different value systems. The first paradigm, which is currently in decline, is that of egoism, crude materialism, and selfish consumerism....

In contrast, a value system associated with the emerging paradigm is also supremely commensurate with what most of us recognize as ‘good’: love, justice, compassion, generosity. This has the revolutionary implication that ethics, often viewed as ‘subjective’, in fact have a perfectly objective and utilitarian function in the fundamental evolutionary goal of species survival. In some sense, ethics provide us a value-driven benchmark to recognize the flaws in the old paradigm, and glimpse the opportunities for better social forms.


The model that is fast developing and disrupting this paradigm from within, is one premised on open access to information; distributed and effectively free, clean energy; local, community and democratic ownership over planetary resources; and a form of prosperity and well-being that is ultimately decoupled from the imperative for endless material accumulation.

http://motherboard.vice.com/en_uk/read/ ... wth-part-2
And don't miss part 1: http://motherboard.vice.com/en_uk/read/ ... wth-part-1

Some good comments, too. Thanks to Sigmentow at neven's site for link and text.

[onlooker]

Wow, dohboi, this article really highlights all the changes that should and must be made. Good find. Time is ticking though and all these changes should be implemented full-scale and worldwide immediately. Oh and Happy New Year Dohboi and to your daughter.

[dohboi]

Thanks, onlooker. Back at ya.

[AndyA]

I would have to say that I don't believe my actions are going to make any difference to the big picture. I don't go for new year resolutions much either, though I am often thinking of my goals and adjusting them as required.
I run a 400 cow grass fed dairy farm, since I have taken over the management production is up 40%, urea use is down 45% and we have stopped using pesticides. These things make sense to do, and are simply a result of following best practice. As a result the carbon intensity of our milk has seen a significant reduction.
Either this year or next year I will quit, an move onto a small farm way out in the country where I am going to try to raise pasture fed pigs as well as beef and chickens, if you get the chance read Sep Holtzer permaculture, which is roughly what I am aiming for.
I don't know if we can feed 7 billion people sustainably with or without meat. For myself, and at my local and national level it wouldn't be that hard. About the only thing I can influence is myself, so for slightly less then the price of the average home in town, I have bought 100acres with a house on it, way out on the back roads. I'm looking forward to it, should be fun and rewarding, but is that going to save the world? Not a chance!
Some people are working hard at saving the planet, but mostly people don't care, and for every person that does that there are many, many people willing to grab a chance of the good life. I have no hope for a voluntary change of direction for society at large.

[dohboi]

" production is up 40%, urea use is down 45% and we have stopped using pesticides. "

Sounds good! Can you educate us on the urea thing, though?

[AndyA]

urea is produced from synthetic ammonia and carbon dioxide. As large quantities of carbon dioxide are produced during the ammonia manufacturing process as a byproduct from hydrocarbons (predominantly natural gas, less often petroleum derivatives), or occasionally from coal, urea production plants are almost always located adjacent to the site where the ammonia is manufactured.

Urea is our most carbon intensive input, diesel fuel would be a distant second. Though cow farts contain a lot of methane, I'm not sure how much they contribute, or how to stop them farting. I believe the urea we use is still being made from brown coal.

[dohboi]

Thanks. If I may betray more of my near-total ignorance of dairy farming, what is the urea used for?

[Subjectivist]

Thanks. If I may betray more of my near-total ignorance of dairy farming, what is the urea used for?

Fertilizer.

[dohboi]

Ah, yes. I think of dairy farms as just being barns full of cows. But I suppose most try to grow at least some of their own feed and in any case try to keep the grass green for grazing. IIRC, the latter can be accomplished by carefully planned movement of herds between grazing areas...Joe Salatin and all that. But again, I'm speaking out of near total ignorance except for a few things that I've read, so take my observations here for what their worth (less than $.02!).

Meanwhile, more info on the potential environmental benefits of low- or no-meat diets:

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/0 ... vironment/

Government Dietary Guidelines May Back Off Meat To Be More Environmentally Friendly

As study after study has shown, meat production takes a heavy toll on the environment and reducing their meat consumption may be one of the most impactful steps an individual can take to live more sustainably. Research published earlier this year in the journal Climactic Change found that global greenhouse gas emissions from livestock increased 51 percent from 1961 to 2010. Another study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences identified beef production in particular as having a significant impact on the environment: Beef requires 28 times more land to produce than pork or chicken and 11 times more water, and its production results in five times more greenhouse gas emissions per calorie.

As the global population grows and the standard of living in countries like China improves, demand for meat is projected to rise, prompting some scientists to urge people in wealthier nations to curb their meat consumption. “Eat meat, but less often — make it special,” Prof. Mark Sutton, lead author of a U.N. Environment Programme 2013 study on meat consumption, told the Guardian. “Portion size is key. Many portions are too big, more than you want to eat. Think about a change of culture that says, ‘I like the taste, but I don’t need so much of it.'”

[dinopello]

Thanks. If I may betray more of my near-total ignorance of dairy farming, what is the urea used for?

Fertilizer.

Seems like it is also fed to the cows to help them metabolize protein. I always just thought it was a nitrogen fertilizer for plants. There a lot can be found with a google on urea cattle feed or similar.

[Subjectivist]

Thanks. If I may betray more of my near-total ignorance of dairy farming, what is the urea used for?

Fertilizer.

Seems like it is also fed to the cows to help them metabolize protein. I always just thought it was a nitrogen fertilizer for plants. There a lot can be found with a google on urea cattle feed or similar.

The grain corn is hard for cattle to digest so all sorts of adulterations get done too it. The only thing my neighbors growing up used it for was to fertilize silage crops were their main winter food source for the dairy cattle, in summer they were pastured.

[Newfie]

Nice points, Newf. Of course not everyone has the do-re-mi to buy that kind of real estate. But you do point out that, even though infrastructure and other issues can make us feel 'stuck' in a resource depleting system, there are always ways to make a difference.

It was $58,000.

You don't have to buy that much. Buy some. Go in with a few to purchase some.

But it is one of the real tangible methods we have at our disposal.

[AndyA]

Urea is fertiliser for grass, all our cows spend their entire life outside eating grass, though they are milked in a shed, as soon as they have been milked they walk back to the paddock. In the winter they eat crops like kale or oats again they harvest all this feed with their own mouths. I didn't realise how uncommon this is, I need to get out more I guess. We do give the cows hay or silage to supplement the grass/clover-pasture mix when growth is lower. The key to the whole system is in the rotational grazing, and to get the best results you need to graze the grass when it is at the right height and graze it down to the correct length. Our cows get fresh grass every 12hrs but I'm getting off topic