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THE Water Heater Thread (merged)

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: ?Saving electricity with hot water heater.

Unread postby elocs » Tue 19 Sep 2006, 10:16:22

WisJim wrote:Being the kind of guy who likes to record data, I kept track of the difference that using a timer on our water heater made to our monthly electric bill, and found that even having the water heater come on for two time periods each day (5am to 8am and 6pm to 9pm) saved enough electricity to pay for the timer in a few months and save many dollars in a year. We then replaced the electric water heater with a gas (propane) water heater and chose one with power venting and electronic ignition, partially so it could also be controlled by a timer, and have it run the same hours as we used to have the electric one operate.

I am convinced by my records of our use that it can make a substantial difference to have a timer on the water heater. If it made a difference for a household of 5 adults, it should make a bigger difference for a single person household, as you can control your usage better than I could with others using water.


Yes, I do have complete control over my hot water usage and the most of it ordinarily used each day is for a shower since I do not have a washer. Other than that, the water is staying warm enough throughout the day for something like hand washing. I thought of turning it off because it was so simple to do as well as the fact that I did not need the heater to come on and reheat the water back up to the set temp in the middle of the afternoon. It is a 20 gallon heater and so it does not take too long to reheat from being off for a day. My concerns were if turning it off would result in an actual saving that would be worth more than an occasional nuisance or that I might actually be doing harm by turning it off each day after using.
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Re: ?Saving electricity with hot water heater.

Unread postby Denny » Tue 19 Sep 2006, 18:11:52

You infer that the water in the heater tank does drop in temperature when you say that its still good enough for washing your hands and the like.

Heat transfer can be likened to electricity. The temperature is like the voltage, and likewise the higher it is, the higher the rate of heat loss from the tank, as someone else said. After you shower, the temperature in the tank is lower, as the water which has flowed into the tank is cold. By leaving it as is, at that lower temperature, when you shut off the heater, it will always expel less heat to the surroundings. So, if you are content with turning on the heater before taking tthe shower, that will always use less energy, just how much less depends on how well insulated the tank is.
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Re: ?Saving electricity with hot water heater.

Unread postby elocs » Tue 19 Sep 2006, 18:25:25

Denny wrote:You infer that the water in the heater tank does drop in temperature when you say that its still good enough for washing your hands and the like.

Heat transfer can be likened to electricity. The temperature is like the voltage, and likewise the higher it is, the higher the rate of heat loss from the tank, as someone else said. After you shower, the temperature in the tank is lower, as the water which has flowed into the tank is cold. By leaving it as is, at that lower temperature, when you shut off the heater, it will always expel less heat to the surroundings. So, if you are content with turning on the heater before taking tthe shower, that will always use less energy, just how much less depends on how well insulated the tank is.


I would turn the hot water heater on about an hour before I would take a shower and turn if off after I am all done. That way the tank gets completely heated for the shower and then heated some more after so it stays at least somewhat warm throughout the day. I don't need the water to be as hot for hand washing as for taking a shower. I thought that my problem might have been a little more straightforward than it appears to have been so far.
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Re: ?Saving electricity with hot water heater.

Unread postby east2west » Tue 19 Sep 2006, 20:18:18

You know, Im currently an expat living in China running my business here, and come from the states. One thing that I can say I was impressed with right off the bat was the Chinese water heaters, and specifficly how efficent and good they work. Basicly you have a small box type deal, about 2 feet tall 1 foot wide and about 6 inches in girth. They operate using propane, and only turns on when you use hot water, and turns off when you shut the hot water off.

It's small size is due to the fact it doesnt contain any water only heats it as needed. A couple more good things is that the hot water is instant, and you would never be in the shower and run out of hot water while your standing there with shampoo in your eye.
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Re: ?Saving electricity with hot water heater.

Unread postby elocs » Tue 19 Sep 2006, 20:41:06

east2west wrote:You know, Im currently an expat living in China running my business here, and come from the states. One thing that I can say I was impressed with right off the bat was the Chinese water heaters, and specifficly how efficent and good they work. Basicly you have a small box type deal, about 2 feet tall 1 foot wide and about 6 inches in girth. They operate using propane, and only turns on when you use hot water, and turns off when you shut the hot water off.

It's small size is due to the fact it doesnt contain any water only heats it as needed. A couple more good things is that the hot water is instant, and you would never be in the shower and run out of hot water while your standing there with shampoo in your eye.


They have them here, too, but unfortunately where I am in Wisconsin our water is very hard and I would need a water softener to use something like that. Fortunately, my shower is only 3 feet from the heater and I do not take long showers.
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Re: ?Saving electricity with hot water heater.

Unread postby east2west » Wed 20 Sep 2006, 09:28:40

I had never seen this type of water heater before I came to China, perhaps it's a regional thing, having lived in North Carolina most of my life.

However, I have often wondered why this simple technology is not utilized in the States. Not only is it more effecient and cost saving, but you never have to worry about your water heater bursting, or making the extra space in a house for the bulky tank WH'rs.
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Re: ?Saving electricity with hot water heater.

Unread postby elocs » Wed 20 Sep 2006, 10:25:38

east2west wrote:I had never seen this type of water heater before I came to China, perhaps it's a regional thing, having lived in North Carolina most of my life.

However, I have often wondered why this simple technology is not utilized in the States. Not only is it more effecient and cost saving, but you never have to worry about your water heater bursting, or making the extra space in a house for the bulky tank WH'rs.


Just google "point of use+hot water heater" and you will get lots of hits. Here is one as an example: [web]http://www.plumbingsupply.com/index-tanklesswaterheaters.html[/web]
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Re: ?Saving electricity with hot water heater.

Unread postby WisJim » Wed 20 Sep 2006, 10:38:40

[quote="east2west"]I had never seen this type of water heater before I came to China, perhaps it's a regional thing, having lived in North Carolina most of my life.

However, I have often wondered why this simple technology is not utilized in the States. [quote]

We have one that is at least 20 years old, works fine, but is a bit small for our current use. They have been available in the USA for many years, and were more popular in Europe. Around here the "big box" stores like Home Depot and Menards stock them.
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Re: ?Saving electricity with hot water heater.

Unread postby Peakprepper » Wed 20 Sep 2006, 17:22:39

The other point to address is that in winter the *incoming water* which fills/refills your tank heater will be colder, so the equation will change yet again.
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Re: ?Saving electricity with hot water heater.

Unread postby ChumpusRex2 » Wed 20 Sep 2006, 21:01:01

The key points have already been mentioned:

The temperature and quantity of hot water in the tank determine how much heat is 'wasted' and must be replaced by fresh heat from electricity.

A tank at 60C will lose less heat than one kept at 75C. Simple as that. Similarly, if your tank is kept at 75 C 24/7 it will lose more heat than if it is heated in the morning and allowed to cool over the rest of the day.

Additionally, a smaller tank will lose less heat - as will a tank that is heavily insulated.

Ideally, you may be able to replace the heater with an instant (tankless) heater - the problem with instant heaters is that they require a very high instantaneous supply of power (e.g. 50 A 230 V) which may not be available, have limited flow-rates, especially in Winter, and are severely affected by hard water. Also note that in some areas, low-cost electricity is available over night - using this off-peak electricity to heat a water tank is often cheaper than using an instant heater.

So key points:
1) Check the temperature on your heater's thermostats - lower is better (less energy loss). But note that the MINIMUM temperature you should use is 60 C (140 F). This temperature is needed to ensure that harmful bacteria are inactivated. Warm water (especially below 120 F) is an idea breeding ground for a number of dangerous microorganisms e.g. Legionella. (This bug kills if inhaled in droplets - e.g. showers). You don't need to keep the water above 140 F all the time, as long as it is heated up to that level every 24-48 hours.
2) Consider a timer on the heaters, so that you don't keep the water hot when you don't need it. Most people will just want a shower in the morning - so set the timer to come on overnight, then stay off during the day.
3) Insulate. Minimum standard (in Europe) for a water heater is 100 mm (4") of foam insulation. High-end tanks will have double this. If you have less than 8" of foam, consider wrapping an insulating blanket around the tank (taking care not to cover the heater elements). Additionally, make sure all the hot-water pipes are insulted - 1/2" foam minimum.
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Re: ?Saving electricity with hot water heater.

Unread postby elocs » Wed 20 Sep 2006, 21:15:10

I have found my solution. I will leave my hot water heater, which is already set low, turned on all the time. It is the most simple solution and I don't believe I am saving anything worthwhile by turning it off and it's not worth the trouble of remembering to turn it on again. Thanks for the suggestions and responses.
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Re: ?Saving electricity with hot water heater.

Unread postby east2west » Wed 20 Sep 2006, 22:30:45

I dont want to keep beating a dead horse but I would just like to share my view of the tankless WH.

In my first apartment in China I had the tankless WH that was simply connected to a small propane tank, that I would have to have refilled at times.

However with my fiancee and I using the shower each once a day, and miscellanous use of hot tap water the propane bottle would last a good month and a half. Now in my current apartment I have the same kind of WH but it operates from the city gas supply and not from a propane bottle.

The point is, getting a month and a half use out of one small propane bottle seamed exremely economical to me, would any of you agree?
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Re: ?Saving electricity with hot water heater.

Unread postby elocs » Wed 20 Sep 2006, 23:19:06

east2west wrote:I dont want to keep beating a dead horse but I would just like to share my view of the tankless WH.

In my first apartment in China I had the tankless WH that was simply connected to a small propane tank, that I would have to have refilled at times.

However with my fiancee and I using the shower each once a day, and miscellanous use of hot tap water the propane bottle would last a good month and a half. Now in my current apartment I have the same kind of WH but it operates from the city gas supply and not from a propane bottle.

The point is, getting a month and a half use out of one small propane bottle seamed exremely economical to me, would any of you agree?


From: Tankless Heaters

"A newer tankless water heater is a wall-mounted unit that only comes on to heat the water when a faucet opens looking for hot water. Because you are heating water as you need it, it is "tankless," also called instantaneous. They work beautifully and are made of stainless steel, so they last. The up side is that you could shower for 24 hours straight. The down side is that it makes a limited amount of water per minute, so two major uses of hot water cannot happen at the same time. They are perfect in smaller use applications, such as vacation homes, campers, or boats. They are very popular in Asia and parts of Europe.

The amount of water we can get out of these units depends on temperature rise, or how cold the water coming into the house is versus how hot you want the water to be at your faucet. The greater the temperature rise, the lower the flow rate. Maximum flow rate on most units is 2.5 gallons per minute. That's more than enough in real life, but less than Americans are used to. You can get water hot enough for dishwashers.

They are available in gas or electric, but I would only recommend gas at this point. The electric would need at least 14 to 15 KW (a lot of power), and the electric elements can scale in hard water. "

That's my problem: I have electic and very hard water.
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I installed a water heater timer

Unread postby mistel » Sat 20 Jan 2007, 22:58:37

I did some renovations in the basement and I had to move my hot water heater. It was an old Nat Gas heater that was due to be replaced (19 years old!) The old one had a chimney and pilot light that burned all the time so I didn't want another like that. Seems like a bad idea to have an open flame in your house 24/7.

A vented Nat Gas one was not an option as I had no where to vent. I looked into tankless and could not get anyone who could install one.

So I went with a 40 gallon electric. I had installed about a year ago and maybe three months ago I finally got around to putting a timer on it. I used this one

http://www.intermatic.com/?action=prod&pid=426

I thought to start I would set it to come on as little as possible then increase the times as neccessary. I set it to come on for two hours in the morning then two hours in the evening, 6 to 8. We have had times when we run out of hot water, but I can just flip a switch and it will turn on until the next shut-off time. And when we run out of hot water, it doesn't go cold suddenly, it merely is less hot. So I have left it at 4 hours a day and it has been fine. I think I may be able to fine tune it even more so that it only comes on in the morning long enough to heat the tank, maybe 20 mins?

I wish I had keep better track of my electricity bill so I could post some numbers, but what I am saying is that it was really surprising how little it needed to be on.

We are a family of 4, two adults and two young kids so right now our hot water needs are low.

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Re: I installed a water heater timer

Unread postby frankthetank » Sun 21 Jan 2007, 00:41:19

Did you look @ the insides of your old hot water heater? I know they tend to really gum up if you have hard water. I also need to replace a similiar (about 16 years) hot water heater. I'm also going electric, because the venting situation in my basement is crap, and the gas ones are pricey. Did you buy a 6/9/12 years model?
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Re: I installed a water heater timer

Unread postby blukatzen » Sun 21 Jan 2007, 03:26:08

We just replaced the gas one in our basement (we have a 1925 Bungalow in Chicago) last year, and are looking into eventually doing a solar hot water heater. We have a 30 gallon, which I feel, for 2 adults (DH and I) is adequate. I didn't want to replace a 40 gallon, we have extreme lowflow on the showers, and for the few times I do run hot water for whites in the washer, (we have a Whirlpool Calypso that uses a lot less water/soap) I think it suffices. I do not hear it constantly heating itself.
We do have credits we can get now in Illinois on solar installations, and we are avidly looking into it, but are waiting, if we move closer to hubby's engineering job out in the suburbs. (where I can buy a smallish-farmette if we go a tiny bit further out.)
The gas water heaters are expensive, even a smallish 30 gal. one we bought at Lowes! It seems that they just went up a lot from just 5 or 6 years ago, when I had to help rehab 2 Aunt's houses!
Most now have rapid recycling features, which are nice, so that is why it doesn't go "icy" on you right away.
The guys at Lowes asked us how old the old tanks were, the 40 gal. we threw out was from 1978! (as were the ones my Aunts had..and theirs finally died in the late 90's, and had to service 3 Apartments and their inhabitants!)
Nowadays, they told me, they are cheaply made compared to yesteryear, and probably will wear out in about 6 or 7 years! (I find this difficult to believe, unless I had a family of 10, which I don't obviously.) But I don't think that I will see as long of a life as I will with that last tank we had.
When the tank died, it was in August, so taking a cold shower was not a problem. We had to wait a week and a half, as they did not have a LOT of tanks in stock. (I think this city is going nuts with remodelling, and the amount of new housing stock that is being built is just mind-boggling here.)
I bought a camping shower, which is essentially a black plastic bag that you put in the sun and heats up water..we did fine with that during that time period...and I assume that "may" be my peak oil shower down the road! :lol:
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Re: I installed a water heater timer

Unread postby lper100km » Sun 21 Jan 2007, 15:33:40

Direct heating is the most efficient, but I have not seen any move in NA to introduce that concept on a national or even local scale.
It is common, may even be mandatory, in the UK to have a direct gas or electric heater on the shower/bathtub. Heating is instant and the energy is applied only to the water that is used. The flow may be reduced somewhat, but that is also part of an overall conservation approach.
Direct heaters are also available for sink units - the kitchen is an obvious choice. I have seen them used on washroom sinks also. Unless the house heating system uses water filled radiators, there is no need for a 40g tank kept perpetually at 175F for a few minutes use daily.
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Re: I installed a water heater timer

Unread postby snax » Sun 21 Jan 2007, 15:53:38

The other alternative of course is to simply upgrade the insulation. A timer is great if there is no practical way to do that, but I'm willing to bet that nearly 99% of households could benefit from a simple insulation wrap.

I suspect that due to the chimney effect of a gas water heater, there are diminishing returns that electric heaters don't have however. But if it's freezing outside (or around your water heater) and the water heater is anything but ice cold to the touch, then better insulation will make a difference that might even exceed the benefit of using a timer.

Be sure to insulate all of the pipes too, as even the cold side and overpressure drain act as a heat sinks.
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Re: I installed a water heater timer

Unread postby WisJim » Sun 21 Jan 2007, 22:35:23

lper100km wrote: there is no need for a 40g tank kept perpetually at 175F for a few minutes use daily.


120F is plenty hot enough for a domestic water heater. But I agree, is is silly to keep a tank full at whatever temp you want, using electricity or non-renewable fuel.
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Re: I installed a water heater timer

Unread postby ChumpusRex2 » Wed 24 Jan 2007, 20:22:02

lper100km wrote:It is common, may even be mandatory, in the UK to have a direct gas or electric heater on the shower/bathtub. Heating is instant and the energy is applied only to the water that is used. The flow may be reduced somewhat, but that is also part of an overall conservation approach.
Direct heaters are also available for sink units - the kitchen is an obvious choice. I have seen them used on washroom sinks also. Unless the house heating system uses water filled radiators, there is no need for a 40g tank kept perpetually at 175F for a few minutes use daily.


On demand heating is becoming increasingly common in the UK.

(Be careful with the terms direct and indirect - they don't mean what you think. Direct means the hot water is heated directly - e.g. by an electric heater. Indirect means that there is a seperate water circuit. E.g. gas heats water in a sealed circuit, which then heats water in a tank).

On demand heating is naturally direct - but direct heating doesn't necessarily eliminate storage.

Traditionally, in the UK hot water has been low pressure (fed by gravity from an attic tank), and as a result flow rates have been poor.

New government building guidelines, both in terms of providing a minimum quality of infrastructure and energy efficnecy, have combined to make direct heating desirable. Good performance (flow rate), no storage to run out, and reduced energy usage.

However, storage is acceptable - but must meet minimum standards. Minimum of 2.5 inches of foam insulation on any tanks, and on gas heated tanks a minimum surface area for the heat exchanger (faster recharging means a smaller tank with smaller standing losses is acceptable).

In flats, and other high density housing, the use of gas is discouraged (for safety)- and all electric heating is usually used. Power companies strongly encourage the use of an off-peak tarrif for heating (electricity used overnight is supplied at a discount - typically 60-80%). The use of on-demand water heating in such a setup is undesirable, as most usage is during the day and does not take advantage of the deep discounts available overnight. Instead direct storage is always installed - often with very large capacity tanks (200-250 litres) so that high-priced daytime electricity is not used for heating. However, the legal minimum standard for insulation on such tanks is correspondingly more strict.

There's also no requirement for a wet central heating system to have a hot water tank. In the UK, the installation of a combination boiler (combi) is common. This combines a direct on-demand gas hot water heater and a sealed heating circuit in a single unit. No need for hot water storgae but the convenience and performance of conventional gas heating. Again, minimum legal standards for gas boilers now mean that such boilers must be of the 'condensing' type, which are considerably more efficient.

That said, there's no need for a hot water tank to be kept at 175F - that's wasteful, and a serious scald risk. (*) If you have a condensing heater, then such a high water temperature will cause the boiler to operate outside of teh condensing range, drastically reducing efficiency.

The hot water tank should be kept at the lowest safe temperature which is 135 F (55 C), although some health agencies recommend 140 F (60 C). Below this temperature there is a risk of bacterial contamination of the hot tank - this is even more important, if the local water quality isn't excellent.

(*) there is one exception to this, and this is when indirect electrical storage heating is used. This is rarely used, because it is more expensive - but provides high-flow, high pressure water without the explosion risks of a conventional mains-pressure water heater. So, although more expensive, unlike conventional high-pressure hot water stores, which legally require servicing and recertifiying annually, these indirect stores require no regular maintenance. The water in the tank is purely a storage medium, and is pumped through a heat exchanger to heat potable water. High temperatures are desirable as they reduce the bulk of the storage tank (but corresponding improvements in insulation are required). Because potable water is heated on-demand, the delivered water temperature is controllable, and there is no risk of bacterial contamination. These storage systems are also potentially useful when added to a conventional heating system - by providing a large degree of thermal inertia and a thermal store - radiators can be instantly brought up to temperature when returning home from work, and operation of the boiler in short bursts (which is inefficient and causes wear and tear) is avoided.
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