[Ibon]

Onlooker,, Did I mention I was in Medellin recently? Such a marvelous city. The citizens so upbeat and friendly and positive. Great public transportation. The cultural icons of the city, the art and museums. The country is rebounding after decades of violence.

I was in Medellin the last time installing a surgical operating microscope in 1995 two years after Escobar was killed and the population was still cowering under the blanket of violence that was still sweeping the city back then.

No comparison to today. Well being is relative. That is my point. You look at the economic statistics of Colombia and you can't interpret the relative well being currently being experienced by the country compared to the past.

When is the last time you went to Colombia?

[Newfie]

My DIL is Columbian, Armenia region, my son loves it. I hope to get to Cartagena some day and tour the country from there.

Hawk,
It's call over-the-hill-itus. I've a bad case.

[onlooker]

Ibon, how interesting. Yes, people everywhere in the world have different ways of coping. Colombia is a country of contrast, poverty in some regions and a pretty bustling metropolis in Bogota and where you went in Medellin. Trataste el plato Bandeja Paisa Ibon? Es muy rico, pero llena mucho. The last time I was in Colombia was about 30 years ago. I know that Bogota is a modern city catering to different economic/social strata.
Actually, I was in Lima, Peru fairly recently about 5 years ago. Lots of economic activity which got me curious so I ask our hosts how was it that such economic activity was occurring? They said mostly credit. Some people are happy with money, some without. Just like some are unhappy with and without. Happiness is a little more subtle than just having some currency in our account or wallet I think. Hasta que charlemos otra vez. Ibon.

[Ibon]

Even when you're paying your local taxes on land you own you're indirectly paying money to them.

I was reflecting with my wife the way our assets are being taxed back in the US where we have two homes in Florida where we do short term rentals. Let's review the taxes from 2016

1) Property tax on both properties 2016 = $ 13,000
2) Sales tax 6% on 2016 revenue of $ 124,000 = 7,440
3) Broward County Hotel tax 5% on $ 124,000 = 6,200
4) Fort Lauderdale short term annual rental
license fee on both homes = 1,600
5) Income tax on net earnings = 6,600

Grand Total = 34,840

This is what we have to pay every year just to have the privilege of turning these two homes into short term rental units. We had to give up the homestead exemption.

More than rising sea levels we are slowly persuaded to dump these properties because of these tax burdens. It's the principal of having to pay these taxes which makes me want to sell. I just don't know what we would do with the proceeds.

[KaiserJeep]

-snip-

Slavery 1.0 as opposed to slavery 2.0. I wonder if we've somehow moved up to slavery 3.0. At every level the direct control of people declines, but the overall effect remains the same. First was actual direct ownership, then it was ownership of land and finally ownership of the financial resources. You cannot exist in the world system without giving a major slice of revenue to the financiers. Every transaction enriches them because they have their fingers in every pie. Even when you're paying your local taxes on land you own you're indirectly paying money to them.

Even so, the Lower Class and Middle Class have more than ever before. Not only can anyone not change the system, but the system is working better than at any time in history, with more wealth distributed to more people than ever before.

I believe that the point has already been made that wealth and an accumulation of stuff does not make for happiness. The present materialism has ultimately been fruitless as a goal. Americans have more than they need but are not happy. I believe that they lack purpose.

If somehow we could make that purpose the transformation of our infrastructure and residences and industries into modern, energy-efficient versions of what they are, that would help ensure a future for our descendants.

[Hawkcreek]

I got a call from one of my neighbors who works in a hardware store in the nearest small town. She asked me to drop by the store and haul some plywood to another neighbor who lives near me. I went to town, had lunch with my friend and picked up the plywood for delivery. A couple of weeks ago, I helped another neighbor who had his tractor stuck in a field. While I was there I picked up a couple of dozen eggs from his wife, who has a lot of chickens.
If we pass another car or truck anywhere on our 18 miles of gravel road, both parties wave and smile.

Cities suck. Our little dead end canyon is full of nice people - and a few d**kheads.

[Hawkcreek]

Most agree it isn't about stuff. And I don't think it is about simple purpose either. If you absolutely have to pick cotton every day and then go back to a nice middle class house, you will have purpose (picking cotton), and you will have stuff, but you will not have control over your life.
Everyone wants to feel that they have volition.
"Volition or will is the cognitive process by which an individual decides on and commits to a particular course of action. It is defined as purposive striving and is one of the primary human psychological functions." Thanks, Wiki.
You don't get this from going to a debt-required job every day and bolting on fenders, or picking cotton. Our entire educational process, and our lives in a whirlwind of buy-me-propaganda, makes this a very hard thing to gain.
We want to have some input to the direction we go. Our gov wants us to have NO input to the direction we go. This is a problem. This is one of the main reasons people are bitching about the 1%.

[JimBof]

I got a call from one of my neighbors who works in a hardware store in the nearest small town. She asked me to drop by the store and haul some plywood to another neighbor who lives near me. I went to town, had lunch with my friend and picked up the plywood for delivery. A couple of weeks ago, I helped another neighbor who had his tractor stuck in a field. While I was there I picked up a couple of dozen eggs from his wife, who has a lot of chickens.
If we pass another car or truck anywhere on our 18 miles of gravel road, both parties wave and smile.

Cities suck. Our little dead end canyon is full of nice people - and a few d**kheads.

Basically my 10% rule. 10% of people you do not want to know. Race, religion, creed or colour do not matter. 10% of people are not worth knowing. Picking them is the problem.

[Hawkcreek]

Basically my 10% rule. 10% of people you do not want to know. Race, religion, creed or colour do not matter. 10% of people are not worth knowing. Picking them is the problem.

Plus 1 on all that. Nice thing is that most of them seem to self-select being in the 10%. Easy to spot.

[Newfie]

Hawk,

I think you are spot on in pointing to volition. I e often spoken of it describing as feeling needed or a part of the community.

And I agree that it is screwed up in our Western culture. There are many ramifications, not all obvious.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Most agree it isn't about stuff. And I don't think it is about simple purpose either. If you absolutely have to pick cotton every day and then go back to a nice middle class house, you will have purpose (picking cotton), and you will have stuff, but you will not have control over your life.
Everyone wants to feel that they have volition.
"Volition or will is the cognitive process by which an individual decides on and commits to a particular course of action. It is defined as purposive striving and is one of the primary human psychological functions." Thanks, Wiki.
You don't get this from going to a debt-required job every day and bolting on fenders, or picking cotton. Our entire educational process, and our lives in a whirlwind of buy-me-propaganda, makes this a very hard thing to gain.
We want to have some input to the direction we go. Our gov wants us to have NO input to the direction we go. This is a problem. This is one of the main reasons people are bitching about the 1%.

Brilliant.

But notice THE BIG CHOICE that is almost never mentioned that this implies. In the US we see this general pattern a huge proportion of the time:

1). People, with their volition re their buying choices generally CHOOSE to buy all the stuff AND services they can afford AND borrow for. (Notice that this implies NOT to live frugally or save all they can or ignore the social ladder climbing, or choose to suffer the "pain" of being different, so personally choose NOT to be a long term labor slave and worry about money until the day they die).

2). Then, people notice that they don't have as many choices, as now they have to PAY for all that stuff. AND they feel they "have" to pay to maintain the lifestyle they have "obtained' with all that stuff and services. Note that in today's society and current interest rates, that includes a huge pile of credit card debt on average, at an interest rate (for those with fairly good credit) of roughly 25% ABOVE what they can earn in a savings account. (So every three years, roughly (by the rule of 72), they pay for the things bought with credit card debt AGAIN). Think about that. I recently read that on average, families have something like $25,000 in high interest consumer debt, which is mostly credit card debt).

3). Eventually, they notice they're going backwards, as raises are relatively few and small in this subdued economy, where international labor competition is growing due to technology changes. Meanwhile taxes increase over time, etc.

4). Finally, they have to BLAME someone. Who they choose varies, but it is almost never THEMSELVES. In this thread, it is the dreaded "One Percent".

...

Now the key thing here is this is by CHOICE. This is SELF INFLICTED. And no matter how much it happens, no matter how many books like "Affluenza" point it out, no matter how many times we hear and read "Keeping up with the Joneses" -- a huge proportion of people outside the 1% NEVER seem to learn.

....

I suspect a lot of it is upbringing, and I don't know how we fix that, given the proportion of people NOT taught to be frugal in their childhood.

My parents had two kids. I went with their values on things, and preferred not to be a wage slave to "the man", and retired after 26+ years in pretty decent comfort -- given the simple lifestyle I'm comfortable with.

My sister, who was raised just like me OTOH, 33 years into her career is deep in debt with her husband, and they both love to spend spend spend and be socially "hip", so retirement is nowhere in sight. And her 4 kids are mostly the same way, as that's what they observed growing up.

I have no children, so once I die the frugal line disappears from our family tree. (I'm trying to work with my sister's kids, including providing them money over time to save and invest and stay out of big debt etc -- but it's a losing battle, net. I know that, but at least I did try).

...

This is why I'm a "bad guy" and think a lot of it has to do with choices, and don't think it gets solved by redistributing ever more wealth. And worse, this is why not only am I a bad guy, but I'm completely unapologetic for it.

[KaiserJeep]

OS, I have long understood the value to not being in debt. In fact my wife occasionally still tells the story of how I "made her" cut up her credit cards after we got married. After I graduated 3.5 years later, we again got credit cards, and a bit later, a mortgage. Today we own our house, pay the cards off every month, and are generally free of debt.

Then the MIL died, and we put the $4300 cremation fee on our credit line while awaiting probate. We will probably spend even more catching up on deferred maintenance on her house. But we'll have it all paid off when we move.

[Hawkcreek]

But notice THE BIG CHOICE that is almost never mentioned that this implies. In the US we see this general pattern a huge proportion of the time:

1). People, with their volition re their buying choices generally CHOOSE to buy all the stuff AND services they can afford AND borrow for. (Notice that this implies NOT to live frugally or save all they can or ignore the social ladder climbing, or choose to suffer the "pain" of being different, so personally choose NOT to be a long term labor slave and worry about money until the day they die).

2). Then, people notice that they don't have as many choices, as now they have to PAY for all that stuff. AND they feel they "have" to pay to maintain the lifestyle they have "obtained' with all that stuff and services. Note that in today's society and current interest rates, that includes a huge pile of credit card debt on average, at an interest rate (for those with fairly good credit) of roughly 25% ABOVE what they can earn in a savings account. (So every three years, roughly (by the rule of 72), they pay for the things bought with credit card debt AGAIN). Think about that. I recently read that on average, families have something like $25,000 in high interest consumer debt, which is mostly credit card debt).

3). Eventually, they notice they're going backwards, as raises are relatively few and small in this subdued economy, where international labor competition is growing due to technology changes. Meanwhile taxes increase over time, etc.

4). Finally, they have to BLAME someone. Who they choose varies, but it is almost never THEMSELVES. In this thread, it is the dreaded "One Percent".
...
Now the key thing here is this is by CHOICE. This is SELF INFLICTED. And no matter how much it happens, no matter how many books like "Affluenza" point it out, no matter how many times we hear and read "Keeping up with the Joneses" -- a huge proportion of people outside the 1% NEVER seem to learn.

Totally correct. Choice is a key.
I used to have a retarded uncle (he died about 30 years ago at the age of 43). Even when we were kids we were all expected to keep an eye on Uncle George, to make sure he didn't do anything dumb (kind of a contradiction, I know, since he had an IQ of about 60 ). We all ended up spending a lot of time with him. None of us liked that job, and one of my aunts explained one day that he really wasn't capable of taking care of himself and making proper choices. She said we would have to make choices for him so that he would have a happier life. We could easily make him do stupid things, and we did sometimes for laughs, just because we were young and dumb ourselves.
I see people making piss-poor choices every day, and wonder why they do it, since I know they are a lot smarter than Uncle George.
Kinda makes me wonder if there aren't some really smart people somewhere urging everyone to make stupid choices, maybe just for laughs.
I hope not.

[JimBof]

But notice THE BIG CHOICE that is almost never mentioned that this implies. In the US we see this general pattern a huge proportion of the time:

1). People, with their volition re their buying choices generally CHOOSE to buy all the stuff AND services they can afford AND borrow for. (Notice that this implies NOT to live frugally or save all they can or ignore the social ladder climbing, or choose to suffer the "pain" of being different, so personally choose NOT to be a long term labor slave and worry about money until the day they die).

2). Then, people notice that they don't have as many choices, as now they have to PAY for all that stuff. AND they feel they "have" to pay to maintain the lifestyle they have "obtained' with all that stuff and services. Note that in today's society and current interest rates, that includes a huge pile of credit card debt on average, at an interest rate (for those with fairly good credit) of roughly 25% ABOVE what they can earn in a savings account. (So every three years, roughly (by the rule of 72), they pay for the things bought with credit card debt AGAIN). Think about that. I recently read that on average, families have something like $25,000 in high interest consumer debt, which is mostly credit card debt).

3). Eventually, they notice they're going backwards, as raises are relatively few and small in this subdued economy, where international labor competition is growing due to technology changes. Meanwhile taxes increase over time, etc.

4). Finally, they have to BLAME someone. Who they choose varies, but it is almost never THEMSELVES. In this thread, it is the dreaded "One Percent".
...
Now the key thing here is this is by CHOICE. This is SELF INFLICTED. And no matter how much it happens, no matter how many books like "Affluenza" point it out, no matter how many times we hear and read "Keeping up with the Joneses" -- a huge proportion of people outside the 1% NEVER seem to learn.

Totally correct. Choice is a key.
I used to have a retarded uncle (he died about 30 years ago at the age of 43). Even when we were kids we were all expected to keep an eye on Uncle George, to make sure he didn't do anything dumb (kind of a contradiction, I know, since he had an IQ of about 60 ). We all ended up spending a lot of time with him. None of us liked that job, and one of my aunts explained one day that he really wasn't capable of taking care of himself and making proper choices. She said we would have to make choices for him so that he would have a happier life. We could easily make him do stupid things, and we did sometimes for laughs, just because we were young and dumb ourselves.
I see people making piss-poor choices every day, and wonder why they do it, since I know they are a lot smarter than Uncle George.
Kinda makes me wonder if there aren't some really smart people somewhere urging everyone to make stupid choices, maybe just for laughs.
I hope not.

Some of the smartest people I have known have been the dumbest :- The university Doctor whose students tried to keep him out of the lab because he was too dangerous. The professor who could not organise himself to put the registration sticker on his car.
Many highly intelligent people are smart in only one direction. A friend of mine took an aptitude test with me. He scored +5 in two related fields and virtually nothing anywhere else. His interpersonal skills made mine look brilliant and that is my weak point. Nice guy though. I scored +3 all over the place like I usually do, I am a generalist. This means I do not fit in anywhere.

[ralfy]

Brilliant.

But notice THE BIG CHOICE that is almost never mentioned that this implies. In the US we see this general pattern a huge proportion of the time:

1). People, with their volition re their buying choices generally CHOOSE to buy all the stuff AND services they can afford AND borrow for. (Notice that this implies NOT to live frugally or save all they can or ignore the social ladder climbing, or choose to suffer the "pain" of being different, so personally choose NOT to be a long term labor slave and worry about money until the day they die).

2). Then, people notice that they don't have as many choices, as now they have to PAY for all that stuff. AND they feel they "have" to pay to maintain the lifestyle they have "obtained' with all that stuff and services. Note that in today's society and current interest rates, that includes a huge pile of credit card debt on average, at an interest rate (for those with fairly good credit) of roughly 25% ABOVE what they can earn in a savings account. (So every three years, roughly (by the rule of 72), they pay for the things bought with credit card debt AGAIN). Think about that. I recently read that on average, families have something like $25,000 in high interest consumer debt, which is mostly credit card debt).

3). Eventually, they notice they're going backwards, as raises are relatively few and small in this subdued economy, where international labor competition is growing due to technology changes. Meanwhile taxes increase over time, etc.

4). Finally, they have to BLAME someone. Who they choose varies, but it is almost never THEMSELVES. In this thread, it is the dreaded "One Percent".

...

Now the key thing here is this is by CHOICE. This is SELF INFLICTED. And no matter how much it happens, no matter how many books like "Affluenza" point it out, no matter how many times we hear and read "Keeping up with the Joneses" -- a huge proportion of people outside the 1% NEVER seem to learn.

....

I suspect a lot of it is upbringing, and I don't know how we fix that, given the proportion of people NOT taught to be frugal in their childhood.

My parents had two kids. I went with their values on things, and preferred not to be a wage slave to "the man", and retired after 26+ years in pretty decent comfort -- given the simple lifestyle I'm comfortable with.

My sister, who was raised just like me OTOH, 33 years into her career is deep in debt with her husband, and they both love to spend spend spend and be socially "hip", so retirement is nowhere in sight. And her 4 kids are mostly the same way, as that's what they observed growing up.

I have no children, so once I die the frugal line disappears from our family tree. (I'm trying to work with my sister's kids, including providing them money over time to save and invest and stay out of big debt etc -- but it's a losing battle, net. I know that, but at least I did try).

...

This is why I'm a "bad guy" and think a lot of it has to do with choices, and don't think it gets solved by redistributing ever more wealth. And worse, this is why not only am I a bad guy, but I'm completely unapologetic for it.

It's probably because the money earned from jobs plus returns on investments made using money saved comes from money lent and goods and services sold.