[Hawkcreek]

2.25 billion of Obama's high speed rail money is going to California. What will it buy? Just engineering and environmental reviews.

There isn't going to be a single friggin' foot of track laid in California for the measly 2.25 billion

=Obama's high speed rail money won't actually build any any high speed rail

That's what I was thinking when I heard it was only 8 billion. It is just another bailout / giveaway to major engineering companies and big contractors - KBR will probably use up the whole 8 billion in the first year and won't have crap to show for it.

[Newfie]

Won't be KBR, they are not in that game. But there has been plenty of jockeying for the past few years. Many of the design/planning contracts are either already let or are close. Especially in CA.

I would expect Parsons Brinkerhoff ADA Balfort Beatty to be a big player.

[VMarcHart]

Obama wants nationwide high-speed rail system

Poor fella. With the current obstruction and opposition, he might as well want good, affordable, preventive healthcare to everybody.

Oh, hang on, he wanted that, didn't he?

[dorlomin]

alfort Beatty to be a big player.

IIRC Balfour Beatty were heavily implicated in the Hatfield rail crash, fatigue on the tracks was not properly inspected and............


Well


Still it would be up to US regulators to ensure contracors meet compliance levels for engineering standards.

[yesplease]

2.25 billion of Obama's high speed rail money is going to California. What will it buy? Just engineering and environmental reviews.

There isn't going to be a single friggin' foot of track laid in California for the measly 2.25 billion

=Obama's high speed rail money won't actually build any any high speed rail

That's what I was thinking when I heard it was only 8 billion. It is just another bailout / giveaway to major engineering companies and big contractors - KBR will probably use up the whole 8 billion in the first year and won't have crap to show for it.

For the love of Pete...

Does anyone on this forum read what they're posting about before posting?

[Newfie]

Still it would be up to US regulators to ensure contracors meet compliance levels for engineering standards.

HAA, HAA, HAA, HOO, HOO, HOO, HEE, HEE, HEE..............................................

oh man Dorlomin, that's a good one. You gotta stop doing that stuff, my system can't stand all the hilarity this early in the morning.

Seriously, you meant that as sarcasm, right?

If not, well you surely have not been exposed to the way things work in any level of government let along in transit.

HSR would likely fall under the FRA along with freight railroads and anyone who shares there track. The FRA does have some "inspectors" who come out and look at the track and switches and a few critical pieces. They also look at your records to make sure that you have the required test records and drawings available. The FRA does have various regulations and the railroads do try to meet them. HSR has different performance and inspection levels and track gage tolerance from regular commuter rail and freight and the Owners are subject to fines if they do not meet FRA regulations.

But to insinuate that the FRA would ensure contractors meet compliance levels for engineering standards is a pretty far stretch. The closest that comes to reality would be if the FRA were to enforce some of the FTA transit rules for design, testing, and commissioning. However that is not clear.

For the record the FTA, which governs all other forms of transit, does not have inspectors. They have crafted legislation that requires the state, or multi-state agencies, to have an oversight board, which requires the transit agency to have a policy that identifies hazards, mitigates them, and performs tests. However there are not inspectors and no matter how good the paper the implementation often fails.

While the people who work for transit agencies, including the management, are often hard working and dedicated, there clearly is no effective national oversight body to provide guidance for minimum standards. I am sure most within the industry would howl with protest at this statement, but I remind you, no one sells bad fish.

Read here...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 95_pf.html

Then the GM resigned.....

Then read here...

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=30&sid=1873224

[anador]

alfort Beatty to be a big player.

IIRC Balfour Beatty were heavily implicated in the Hatfield rail crash, fatigue on the tracks was not properly inspected and............


Well


Still it would be up to US regulators to ensure contracors meet compliance levels for engineering standards.

and funny how well maintained rail is still leaps and bounds safer then car travel, aint it?

[Newfie]

For you HSR fans I stumbled across this today. It is a pro-HSR, pro-transit group called TRAC Train Riders Association of California. Trainriders.com.

Check out their web site. http://www.calrailnews.com/

Download the Jan/Feb newsletter California Rail News, and read the articles.

On balance, I thought it was a pretty good read and gives a sense of the arguments that go on in creating a new service.

Pay particular attention to the article on page 6 concerning the green offset effect.

Three scenarios were considered. In the first scenario, high-speed rail is loaded
to maximum capacity, and the rail displaces cars, planes and current passenger
rail at low capacity. In this case, highspeed rail pays back its “Carbon Debt” in
6 years. In the worst case, the high-speed rail has low occupancy, and displaces high
occupancy cars, planes and passenger rail. In this case, high-speed rail never provides
a carbon benefit.

The middle scenario is closest to reality, with all current modes of transportation
assumed to be either near or above their actual measured capacity. For this
case, the researchers found it would take 71 years to pay back the carbon debt. The
middle scenario is what happens under real world conditions if high-speed rail
operates at 50% capacity.

[Hawkcreek]

2.25 billion of Obama's high speed rail money is going to California. What will it buy? Just engineering and environmental reviews.

There isn't going to be a single friggin' foot of track laid in California for the measly 2.25 billion

=Obama's high speed rail money won't actually build any any high speed rail

That's what I was thinking when I heard it was only 8 billion. It is just another bailout / giveaway to major engineering companies and big contractors - KBR will probably use up the whole 8 billion in the first year and won't have crap to show for it.

For the love of Pete...

Does anyone on this forum read what they're posting about before posting?

Yep, like I said, billions to engineering companies for engineering "studies". I work with engineering companies every day and I am always amazed how much budget they manage to eat up with "studies", and how little they manage to leave for project execution. In this case all they will probably end up with is piles of paper that will not support a track.
How many engineering jobs (in man years at 100K per person)would 8 billion dollars represent. How much studying really needs to be done? Yeah, I could understand a couple of hundred million for generating a design basis, but billions is just a tax giveaway.

[Newfie]

Hawk,

I share your frustration while I gouge at the trough. I can tell you that there are a number of engineers who agree with you. Engineers generally want to see something happen and are frustrated at the prolonged process.

The issue is not that engineers/planners create the problem. The problem, such as it is, is created by legislation and politics and NIMBY opposition.

I don't blame anybody. The simple fact of the matter is that humans are not nearly as efficient at doing things as we think we are. Individually we can get quite a bit done. But en mass? No so good.

[mcgowanjm]

Hawk,

I share your frustration while I gouge at the trough. I can tell you that there are a number of engineers who agree with you. Engineers generally want to see something happen and are frustrated at the prolonged process.

The issue is not that engineers/planners create the problem. The problem, such as it is, is created by legislation and politics and NIMBY opposition.

I don't blame anybody. The simple fact of the matter is that humans are not nearly as efficient at doing things as we think we are. Individually we can get quite a bit done. But en mass? No so good.

And that's why Resilience and Retrofitting is the
operating model now. No new Rights of Way needed,
no new gauges, no new locomotives. Just New Synergies
of All three.

Who needs to go 200 mph? 80 mph with Sleeper/Cafe/
Club cars is plenty.

[Hawkcreek]

Hawk,

I share your frustration while I gouge at the trough. I can tell you that there are a number of engineers who agree with you. Engineers generally want to see something happen and are frustrated at the prolonged process.

The issue is not that engineers/planners create the problem. The problem, such as it is, is created by legislation and politics and NIMBY opposition.

I don't blame anybody. The simple fact of the matter is that humans are not nearly as efficient at doing things as we think we are. Individually we can get quite a bit done. But en mass? No so good.

And that's why Resilience and Retrofitting is the
operating model now. No new Rights of Way needed,
no new gauges, no new locomotives. Just New Synergies
of All three.

Who needs to go 200 mph? 80 mph with Sleeper/Cafe/
Club cars is plenty.

I agree with that - we actually need to slow down and enjoy the scenery for a change. I am all for work on low speed rail, but high speed rail is too much, too late.

And Newfie, what you say about getting things done as individuals as opposed to en mass is totally true. If you want to get something done, make one good person responsible for it - the larger the group, the worse the result.

[yesplease]

Yep, like I said, billions to engineering companies for engineering "studies". I work with engineering companies every day and I am always amazed how much budget they manage to eat up with "studies", and how little they manage to leave for project execution. In this case all they will probably end up with is piles of paper that will not support a track.
How many engineering jobs (in man years at 100K per person)would 8 billion dollars represent. How much studying really needs to be done? Yeah, I could understand a couple of hundred million for generating a design basis, but billions is just a tax giveaway.

Billions in engineering studies? I call bull. Prove it. I've seen hundreds of millions to billions for right of way, construction, and so on, ie actual work, but never billions for studies.

Mehdi Morshed, executive director of the California High-Speed Rail Authority, said the infusion of federal dollars would pay for completion of the project's engineering and environmental reviews and provide a significant amount of seed money to start building the system by September 2012, as required by the federal grant.

Like I said before, part of the federal grant requires construction to be started by a specific date. There's no way all of the federal grant money could go to studies.

[Newfie]

Yesplease,

While the allocated money may be enough to do "something" it is not nearly enough to complete any meaningful project. Given the current economy where will the balance come from?

But I think the more germane argument is to the efficacy of the matter. Why bother? Does it solve a real problem or is it just arm candy even if it was built?

Oh, and FWIW "they" had a plan to build a gondola across the Delaware River to link Philadelphia and Camden to promote walking traffic between the two waterfronts. It was a waterfront revitalization project. Two story gondolas high enough that ships could safely pass under. The studies were done and construction started, we now have two very nice foundations, one on land in Philly, one in the water in Camden, that will puzzle future archeologist. The same way the Easter Island statues, some unfinished, puzzle us now.

It remains as it always was. Human social evolution is a myth and conceit.

[Hawkcreek]

Billions in engineering studies? I call bull. Prove it. I've seen hundreds of millions to billions for right of way, construction, and so on, ie actual work, but never billions for studies.

I choose to just wait and see. I will bet you a six-pack of Moose Drool that when the smoke clears in 2012 most of the advance cash will have been spent and nothing of substance will have been built.

But it will keep a lot of engineers occupied and out of trouble, so that is a good thing. It is never wise to let smart people have too much time on their hands. Call this a bailout for the smart instead of the rich.

[yesplease]

How much of the federal grant do you think will be spent before any actual work (laying track, purchasing right of way, etc) is done?

[rangerone314]

2.25 billion of Obama's high speed rail money is going to California. What will it buy? Just engineering and environmental reviews.

There isn't going to be a single friggin' foot of track laid in California for the measly 2.25 billion

=Obama's high speed rail money won't actually build any any high speed rail

That's what I was thinking when I heard it was only 8 billion. It is just another bailout / giveaway to major engineering companies and big contractors - KBR will probably use up the whole 8 billion in the first year and won't have crap to show for it.

For the love of Pete...

Does anyone on this forum read what they're posting about before posting?

Congress doesn't read the bills before they sign them into law either... so maybe we have some future Congressmen posting here!

[rangerone314]

How much of the federal grant do you think will be spent before any actual work (laying track, purchasing right of way, etc) is done?

That kinda depends on how many hands manage to get into the pot of soup...

[TheDude]

Billions in engineering studies? I call bull. Prove it. I've seen hundreds of millions to billions for right of way, construction, and so on, ie actual work, but never billions for studies.

I choose to just wait and see. I will bet you a six-pack of Moose Drool that when the smoke clears in 2012 most of the advance cash will have been spent and nothing of substance will have been built.

But it will keep a lot of engineers occupied and out of trouble, so that is a good thing. It is never wise to let smart people have too much time on their hands. Call this a bailout for the smart instead of the rich.

Horses to courses of course, but: $95 billion a year spent on medical research - Health care- msnbc.com

Dunno about how much of that is research per se, or how engineering compares.

[Newfie]

As a rule of thumb 6% of a large civil type project is designated to engineering. But that is exclusive of the up front "planning" process which includes the EIS (Environmental Impact Statement.)

It is a winnowing process. The EIS narrows the options to one. Then there is a grant to do Preliminary Engineering. Then you go to Final Engineering (6%.)

So I think you can wing something like 10% to 15% if you add all this up. Then you also have Construction Management, Program Management, and a host of other programs that eat into the pie.

Other mandates are for small and disadvantaged enterprises which are some times effective and sometimes not.

In some circumstances there is a 1% set aside for art.

If you are going through wetlands you need to recreate those wetlands elsewhere. Identified in EIS.

If you are using brown fields they need to be decontaminated. Identified in EIS.

And so on and so forth. It is not unusual for a project to take over 10-years to get to Final Engineering.