[Guest_Martin]

Hi,anyone plan to change their car to something more economical? Just bought a diesel car which does about 40-50mpg as a main car I recon having a choice of petrol or diesel is a good idea Plus you can run vegetable oil instead of diesel As a second car I'm planning on getting a Citroen 2cv!! They have a tiny 0.6 litre engine and mpg is around 45-55

Here in England we had a petrol freak out last time the prices went high and all the truck drivers blockaded the oil refineries
To avoid this I have an old VW camper fuel tank which I plan to fill with diesel and keep about 5 gallons of petrol My own strategic petroleum reserve!

A few predictions: all second hand cars which do over 40mpg will be sought after and go up in price
all cars under 30mpg will become pretty much worthless. there will be a lot more motorbikes and bicycles on the roads!

[Dan the Man]

anyone plan to change their car to something more economical?

Yes, I did. After we reached around $5 per Gallon here in Germany I sold my car and got an old Mercedes Diesel to run it on vegetable oil. Which worked fine. BAd luck then it had some other problems which cost me a lot of money.

So two days ago I sold even that car, and I am now happily riding my bike which doesn't cost me anything. Believe me, I have never felt so free.
cheers
Dan

[Guest]

Hi Martin;

You might want to get a 'stabilizer' additive for storing your fuel. For gasoline, here in the States, there is a product called 'Stabil' and there are several others that work well for diesel. Don't know what it is they do but they are supposed to increase the storage life of fuels. There is also a pretty cool home bio-diesel still out for sale now but, it costs about 3000USD and you'll need a supply of oil(fish n' chips shops?), lye and methanol? I think.

I fear we are all on our way to hell in a handbasket but, it's fun to think of stuff to keep us busy on the way. . . lol

Did you get a VW TDI?

When you say run on vegetable oil do you mean veg. oil made into bio-diesel or do you mean just straight veg. oil- is that possible?

[Pops]

I wish we had better diesel alternatives in the US. I want a small diesel 4wd car-size wagon.

Diesel is much better to store – just keep it dry. Stabil is available for gas (petrol) and diesel, but its pretty expensive. I find it’s much cheaper to just pour the gas in the tank every month or so and refill the can – I have about 15 gals about a tank full. You can always keep the tank at least half full.

Of course, be careful storing gas, diesel is much safer to have around, I built a small (2’ x 8’ x 2.5’ high) lidded box with lots of venting on the bottom and sides for anything that might explode – gas, thinners, propane bottles, etc. It’s outside away from buildings.

[EnviroEngr]

A gentleman from the Michigan UP at the MREA Fair gave me some literature to follow up on. He converted his car over for about $600 and sweat equity.

He pointed me to: www.greasecar.com

[JayHMorrison]

Hi,
anyone plan to change their car to something more economical?

Already did it. We used to have two SUVs. 17 mpg and 19 mpg. I got rid of mine about 3 months ago and got a used 2001 VW Jetta. I get about 30 mpg now. We have the other SUV on lease until Jan 2006. I am hoping that hybrids are more common, more models out, etc. I plan on getting a hybrid as soon as they stop charging such large markups over sticker price.

In 2006 there are new diesel fuel standards starting for the USA. VW and Mercedes are planning to bring back diesel cars and start selling them again in the USA. I am hoping that they develop a diesel hybrid. Something like that could easily hit 70 mpg.

The way I look at it, my family is going from an average of 18 mpg to an average of 50 mpg within two years. An improvement of 177% in fuel efficiency.

To avoid this I have an old VW camper fuel tank which I plan to fill with diesel and keep about 5 gallons of petrol
My own strategic petroleum reserve!

Be careful storing fuel for long periods of time. I think it goes bad after a few months.

A few predictions.....
all second hand cars which do over 40mpg will be sought after and go up in price
all cars under 30mpg will become pretty much worthless

We are already seeing that trend in the USA. The automakers are having to offer HUGE incentives to sell SUVs now. Cars with good mpg are being sold with much fewer incentives. A Toyota Prius has a sticker price of $21,000 but it is in such demand that you have to wait 6 to 9 months and pay $5,000 over the sticker price.

[Guest]

What I don't understand is I used to have a Honda civic hatchback, and not the one with the funky engine the base model w/ac, and I put serious miles on it hwy and city over four years from 93-97 and it consistantly got ABOVE40 MPG and has broken 50 on long trips . . .there was nothing special about it there seems no reason we couldn't have such mileage right now?

[Guest]

Also, in High School I had a SAAB 96?- the one that looks like a dead fish- three cylinder two-stroke. But it had freewheel- the engine would disengage from the tranny when the car could maintain speed w/o power, like downhill. This also got good mileage. But I rolled it bad.

[Guest]

>When you say run on vegetable oil do you mean veg. oil made into bio-diesel or do you mean just straight veg. oil- is that possible?

Its possible to run a diesel on straight vegetable oil
Making a bio petrol like ethanol is difficult and seems to lose energy
But plants make sugar, sugar ferments into alchohol... nice idea

Getting oil from plants is even easier, just crush up the seeds (which are 30-40% oil) and put oil into gas tank!
I researched this and a 'heck of a lot' of plants could make a few million barrels a year. Since I recon 95% of oil is simply wasted, yeah we can live on that!

I too wonder why MPG figures are so low, because of high tax here in UK most cars are small and get about 30mpg

But the Citroen 2cv does 55 and it was designed in 1935
Crazy cars but very light, the aim was to make the cheapest car possible for French peasents as a replacement for the horse and cart! The design spec called for being able to drive over a ploughed field without breaking any eggs so they could get to the market
It also had a high roof so they could drive to church wearing a hat!


Martin

[still]

Hi,
Some notes on the 2cv.

The original production model had an engine size of 300 ish cc and did 55 - 60 mpg, the later models had 602 cc engines and these get 45 -50 mpg and will do 70mph, although this is their top speed, because of the engine design ( air cooled oil ) you can safely do this speed for prolonged periods.

The cars are very reliable when looked after, there is very little to go wrong. Gas flowed heads will set you back around £400 for the pair and I am told will lower fuel consumption to 60 -65 mpg. If you were going to do this you really want a Dyane 6, which is the same chassis and running gear with a more modern, think '60s instead of '40s, streamlined body and a 'semi-supercharged' engine! Which gives you a bit more poke.
Interestingly, from my own experience, economy doesn't seeem to vary much if you thrash seven shades of the brown stuff out of the engine ( great fun) or just chill out and watch the loonies in their tanks over take you, to prove that their sexual organs are bigger than yours.
(Goodness me that turned into a bit of a rant )
Also the engine is very efficient when idling so doesn't use much more in stop start traffic than on the open road .

What really gets me is that the engine design is around 60 years old and it still enables me to compete in modern traffic. Where are the 200 mpg cars? ( A rhetorical question, industrial politics etc ...)

respect

[OilBurner]

Just a warning about storage of fuels. Many countries have laws on whether you can store fuel and how much you can have around at any one time.

Also, diesel will tend to go very bad quite quickly - when I fill my diesel car I always avoid underused stations because you don't know how long they've had the fuel.
If you get any water in the diesel (I think it get's contaminated quite easily) then it's as good as junk.
Petrol also tends to go stale.

I have'nt had any experience with fuel stabilisers to test their usefulness though.

Be aware that evaporation is also an issue for long term storage.

[Devil]

Hi,
Some notes on the 2cv.

The original production model had an engine size of 300 ish cc and did 55 - 60 mpg, the later models had 602 cc engines and these get 45 -50 mpg and will do 70mph, although this is their top speed, because of the engine design ( air cooled oil ) you can safely do this speed for prolonged periods.

The cars are very reliable when looked after, there is very little to go wrong. Gas flowed heads will set you back around £400 for the pair and I am told will lower fuel consumption to 60 -65 mpg. If you were going to do this you really want a Dyane 6, which is the same chassis and running gear with a more modern, think '60s instead of '40s, streamlined body and a 'semi-supercharged' engine! Which gives you a bit more poke.
Interestingly, from my own experience, economy doesn't seeem to vary much if you thrash seven shades of the brown stuff out of the engine ( great fun) or just chill out and watch the loonies in their tanks over take you, to prove that their sexual organs are bigger than yours.
(Goodness me that turned into a bit of a rant )
Also the engine is very efficient when idling so doesn't use much more in stop start traffic than on the open road .

What really gets me is that the engine design is around 60 years old and it still enables me to compete in modern traffic. Where are the 200 mpg cars? ( A rhetorical question, industrial politics etc ...)

respect

The deux-chevaux threw up their hooves when unleaded petrol became the norm. They could not be persuaded to comply with emissions regulations and a catalytic pot would double the cost of the car (well, almost! )

In Switzerland, we used to say that the deuxchie was a leader: you had to follow it at 10 km/h up all the alpine roads!

And that gear-change! :D :D

[MarkR]

Caution is needed when storing fuel. Many countries, as already pointed out, have laws regarding the maximum amount that can be stored, and the type of containers that may be used.

There is a serious fire hazard if large quantities of fuel, particularly petrol are stored in one place. Potentially an explosion hazard if petrol is stored in sub-standard containers in a poorly ventilated place (e.g. a domestic garage).

There were several very serious fires, during the UK fuel protests after members of the general public hoarded petrol at their homes.

[Guest]

When demand is growing and supplies of crude cannot meet demand then the price of crude will rise to allocate what supplies there are. So my question involves thinking like an oil supplier. Does it not make sense for a crude oil supplier to withhold supplies (or simply build inventories) in the rational expectation of a higher sales price at a future date? Do you agree that signs of hoarding by oil suppliers would be evidence that they believe that crude oil demand will forever remain well ahead of oil supplies (in particular Peak Oil)? For example, If crude prices were to rise at 25% year until such time as alternative fuels are price competitive ( say taking 6 years to reach a crude oil price level four times higher than now), why would any supplier ship oil this year when no other investment would yield as much profit as hoarding oil. Back in the 1970's prices rose so quickly that independent oil tankers deliberately sailed slowly so that the delivered oil could be sold for more profit. In a rather mean way, I speculate that oil hoarders would have the economically beneficial effect of postponing the date of Peak Oil. What do you think?

[buster]

the philosophical concept supposedly preventing such behavior is referred to as "stewardship." Those who are stewards of the world oil supply would not engage in such behavior as an obvious profit ploy, as the world's oil consumers have considerably more firepower than the producers.

At any rate, "oil hoarding" is most economically and unobjectionably accomplished by simply leaving it in the ground, which is, in fact, being done (about a quarter of US domestic oil is in undeveloped Alaskan reserves, for instance).

The best available estimates of such oil reserves is obtainable here:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/

The actual extent of unexploited reserves is not likely to tally with publicly known figures, but secret hoarding is not considered likely to hide much, if any, secret oil reserves.

In fact, most oil producers have more to gain by overstating their reserves, as perception of more oil enhances political power.

[trespam]

And remember that as we approach peak, producers who hoard may in fact be selling their oil at bargain basement rates when the economy recesses. Remember the drop in usage in the early 80s was 15% and it didn't recover to previous levels until well after the 90s.

Therefore an argument can be made that selling oil in the runup to the peak as fast as you can makes more economic sense. Because at some point, people won't be buying as much.

One would have to model different scenarios I guess to determine what makes the most sense.

I would say at this point the Saudi's are scared that the world can't keep up and that the world economy will recess. One might argue that they would be back in the drivers seat as the swing producer, but if demand drops 15% or say as much as 30% (say a market meltdown), then I suppose the Saudis are just another player like everyone else for a while.

[Soft_Landing]

Does this count?

USA - 6th August

EU - 5th August

China - 11th August

India - 11th August

[buster]

Bush tops off the reserves when oil prices are high -- that's a giveaway to his oil industry friends.

It is not being hoarded for any profit purposes, as the intention is economic insurance against situations like the current one (so he's actually supposed to be drawing down from supplies right now, if anything -- there's almost certainly going to be a temporary glut next month, and that would be the right time to 'top off'). What he's doing is helping his buddies make up for lost sales at the pump due to high prices.

[Steve]

Stewardship vs. hoarding....
With regard to the strategic petroleum reserves of the OECD and China, I wonder if say China were to baulk at a coordinated release of crude from consuming countries' strategic reserves. Would that non-action be conclusive evidence that China believes that its own imported oil demand will forever be ahead of supply (e.g. Peak Oil is soon)? I recall the U.S. pumping from its strategic reserves in the past in order to deflate crude oil speculation, but this behavior is not rational in the face of truly declining supplies, as the oil (e.g. for the U.S. military) would have to be later replenished at even higher prices. Hoarding can also happen in consuming countries - think about the gas in your car's fuel tank, or the heating oil in some distributor's inventory increasing in value (far) faster than the cost of carrying it. If we see reports of (supposedly rational) non-supplier hoarding then is that evidence that at least some believe that Peak Oil is near?

[buster]

Perhaps, but that would most likely be an 'eleventh hour' scenario. Consider that the remaining oil in all of its diverse locations, will flow or not flow according to political and economic whim for some time to come. This "drunkard's walk" of oil prices will ultimately lead upward, to be sure, but not in so predictable a way to convince the wealthy that the best way to become wealthier is to freeze valuable assets for an unpredictable term.