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Saving HUGE money on heating bills

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby frankthetank » Wed 07 Dec 2005, 21:36:20

MY local university has the ability to burn coal (and will be doing it year round soon).

Imagine saving nearly 300,000 dollars on your monthly heating bill. That's what the Plant Manager at UWL estimates they save each month during the winter time. Steve La Brosse says it's heating bill for the month of November was about 118,000 dollars for coal, but if they were using natural gas that price, he says, would be tripled, to around 400,000 dollars.


LINK

You can also watch the video (click on the red video icon).

I think sometimes we forget that heating costs not only effect the little guy, but also the big guys. Think of all those big box stores that have to keep burning gas, because of no other choices.
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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby Leanan » Wed 07 Dec 2005, 21:40:10

There's much distress over this in our local school districts. They will be paying millions more for heating classrooms and for diesel for the buses. And that's not all - the price of food and school supplies are also going up, as is the cost of shipping them.

It could get ugly. There's talk of raising taxes or cutting sports (I don't know which cause more outrage).
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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby Sgs-Cruz » Wed 07 Dec 2005, 22:52:30

Oh, that's fantastic. Let's have everybody change back to coal as natural gas (+ oil) runs out. Who cares that it's, like, three times more carbon-intensive.

This is what I feared would begin to happen :(
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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby Seadragon » Wed 07 Dec 2005, 23:24:45

when it comes to a choice between the environment or our nonnegotiable lifestyles, which one do you think will win, hmm? Bet on the selfcenteredness of humans every time, I say.
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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby frankthetank » Wed 07 Dec 2005, 23:33:32

It WILL happen, i have no doubt in my mind. Wait until Wal-Mart and GE cooperate in nuclear powered SuperCenters... :-D
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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby IanC » Wed 07 Dec 2005, 23:55:18

Personally, my heart just sinks when I read about New Coal and the miracle of Tar Sands. It's just prolonging the inevitable and giving people false hope. They will royally screw-up the planet extracting this crap to fuel an unsustainable lifestyle.

F*** Coal! Bring on the new paradigm!
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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby WisJim » Thu 08 Dec 2005, 00:07:39

The really disturbing thing is that for the last 10 to 20 years they have had the knowledge and technology to build commercial and educational buildings that didn't require furnaces or the equivelant to provide heating. The Mall of America in Minneapolis, MN (okay, it is really in Bloomington, MN), the biggest mall in the USA, doesn't have a heating system, just exhaust fans and ventilation--it gets its heat from lights, equipment and people. It has fans to exhaust stale air, move warm air around, and bring in fresh air.The same thing is possible for many types of factories and schools and commercial buildings. Where I work, we are supposed to turn down the thermostats to save energy, but it will really increase the electrical use because we will have to increase ventilation in some buildings, even when it is 10 below zero or colder, because the heat gain due to people and lights, and unintentional solar gain through some windows, keeps the building warmer than the "allowable" maximum temp on many days. So we run more fans, exhausting warm air and bringing in cool (cold today) outside air to keep the building at 68 degrees F, instead of letting it get to 70 or 72 degrees.

And don't get me started on the energy wasted in heating the average home.
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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby Geology_Guy » Thu 08 Dec 2005, 01:21:23

I was a kid in the late 1970's and I remember being told how important it was to shut of lights when not being used and in general to conserve energy. Then Americans completely forgot about saving energy for 20 years. We have only ourselves to blame. Christmas lights still make me cringe ( and I love Christmas).
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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby Colorado-Valley » Thu 08 Dec 2005, 02:25:17

I wonder how much natural gas gets burned to light all these residential Christmas displays. Some of them look like they probably take a couple of kilowatts.

The big ones are so gharish it makes you sick. I prefer the little yard tree with a string of lights or some quiet candles in the window. But I guess that's not the American way ...
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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby UIUCstudent01 » Thu 08 Dec 2005, 02:59:03

frankthetank wrote:MY local university has the ability to burn coal (and will be doing it year round soon).


My university is getting windmills!

And there is research on the campus about 'clean coal technology'.. I had a TA in one of my chemistry classes that was working to find a catalyst or somesuch for some kind of process... it was way above my head at the time.

Also, the university dorm rooms should really cut back on heating 24/7... I open the window to let the heat out. The drafty windows aren't enough to cool down the room enough... christ sake...
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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby AmericanEmpire » Thu 08 Dec 2005, 03:16:41

Oh, that's fantastic. Let's have everybody change back to coal as natural gas (+ oil) runs out. Who cares that it's, like, three times more carbon-intensive.

This is what I feared would begin to happen


I have no doubt we will burn as much coal as we can post oil. Whether the environment can afford it or not.
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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby dbarberic » Thu 08 Dec 2005, 15:47:04

Seadragon wrote:when it comes to a choice between the environment or our nonnegotiable lifestyles, which one do you think will win, hmm? Bet on the selfcenteredness of humans every time, I say.


I agree with you for the most part, but I do not understand how one can consider heat a consumption oriented lifestyle choice.

I think any human would say that heat in winter is non-negotiable.
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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby bruin » Thu 08 Dec 2005, 16:27:57

dbarberic wrote:
Seadragon wrote:when it comes to a choice between the environment or our nonnegotiable lifestyles, which one do you think will win, hmm? Bet on the selfcenteredness of humans every time, I say.


I agree with you for the most part, but I do not understand how one can consider heat a consumption oriented lifestyle choice.

I think any human would say that heat in winter is non-negotiable.


How about heating a 5500 sq ft home?
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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby Sgs-Cruz » Thu 08 Dec 2005, 17:45:47

bruin wrote:How about heating a 5500 sq ft home?
Clearly the 5500 sq. ft. home is an unsustainable choice that shouldn't have been made in the first place.

But if you're in such a home and natural gas for your furnace becomes too expensive, what do you do? You put in a coal-burning furnace, or move to a smaller house. The problem is that moving to a smaller house takes a lot of effort; and for a lot of people, the environmental concerns of burning coal are worth less than the effort of moving.

In the case of a university, moving to a smaller "house" isn't even possible. So the options are to close the university, or to say "damn the carbon emissions" and burn coal to heat the place. If we as a society cared about global warming we would have said "no, you can't do that [burn coal instead of NG]" to the university that was thinking of switching. In which case they would have closed the place. But clearly our societal priorities are not in that order.

(Note: I'm not saying they necessarily should be in that order! Think of the disruption and anger that would come from thousands of students losing their education due to climate-change concerns. This post is more of an observation of current societal priorities than a call for change.)
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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby TorrKing » Thu 08 Dec 2005, 18:13:05

Keep your house cold and move out on your lawn into a felt yurt. The investment will be expensive (and/or labour intensive), but it costs minimally from that and on. The yurt was developed in an evironment where energy is highly precious so it is extremely economical.

It's key elements:
-Small space to heat.
-Very good insulation.
-Circular base, which is the most energysaving floorplan.

You will only need a little firewood for cooking, thats all! :-D

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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby dukey » Thu 08 Dec 2005, 18:15:35

we have a coal aga here (cooker)
and as soon as you start having to lug coal around
just carry a couple of sacks of it
you are gonna get dirty and its heavy, you will very quickly realise why most people burn oil ;p
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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 08 Dec 2005, 21:39:38

frankthetank wrote:MY local university has the ability to burn coal (and will be doing it year round soon).

Imagine saving nearly 300,000 dollars on your monthly heating bill. That's what the Plant Manager at UWL estimates they save each month during the winter time. Steve La Brosse says it's heating bill for the month of November was about 118,000 dollars for coal, but if they were using natural gas that price, he says, would be tripled, to around 400,000 dollars.


LINK

You can also watch the video (click on the red video icon).

I think sometimes we forget that heating costs not only effect the little guy, but also the big guys. Think of all those big box stores that have to keep burning gas, because of no other choices.


If UW LaCross can save 75% on its heating bill by switching to coal you can bet big bucks that other large energy consumers will be looking into doing the same thing. Right now coal is relatively cheap because it is not in high demand for residential/commercial heating, if that changes the price will climb until it levels off where the cost of converting equals the savings from converting, or close to it. On the other hand if a lot of large users switch to coal then natural gas and heating oil demand should drop and those prices come down until they hit peak production.

Does anyone have a calculator for cost benefit analisis of varied fuels based on price of each fuel and heating value of each fuel?
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Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby DesertBear2 » Fri 09 Dec 2005, 02:56:15

Sgs-Cruz wrote:
bruin wrote:How about heating a 5500 sq ft home?
Clearly the 5500 sq. ft. home is an unsustainable choice that shouldn't have been made in the first place.

But if you're in such a home and natural gas for your furnace becomes too expensive, what do you do?


When natural gas hits the real highs, a lot of people are going to turn off the gas furnaces and use electric room heaters to heat just a few closed off rooms. The new 50-inch plasma tvs will allow them to escape into the image world as they shut out the real world. How much electricity will 125,000,000 electric room heaters require?

But going back to coal-fired home heating.....when I was a kid in the late 50s, we lived in a small town in lower Michigan. We were looking for a rental house and toured around the town a bit. At one house, I remember going down to the basement and seeing an active coal furnace. The coal was delivered through a shoot and went into a wooden stall that was filled with chunky coal. Next to the stall was an old furnace with a steel door and a shovel. Coal dust coated every horizontal and vertical surface in the basement. Yikes.
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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby donshan » Fri 09 Dec 2005, 13:48:04

Tanada wrote:[
Does anyone have a calculator for cost benefit analisis of varied fuels based on price of each fuel and heating value of each fuel?


The following link has a comparative calculator for various home heating fuels:

http://www.hearth.com/articles/47_0_1_0_M7.html

One point I want to make about burning coal and wood. In both cases the combustion gases must be sent up a flue for safety from carbon monoxide etc. If the combustion air is sucked from inside the living space, cold air MUST leak into the house through cracks and crevices and around doors/windows to replace this combustion air. Otherwise the flue will not draw. This reduces the overall efficiency considerably since you have to heat this extra infiltration air up to room temperature.

Gas and oil furnaces located inside the living space may have the same problem.. The gas furnace I now have is located in the garage and uses cold garage air for combustion which then goes out a flue. The indoor air is circulated past a heat exchanger via insulated ducts. There is a little heat loss from the furnace that is useful as it keeps the insulated garage above freezing until outside temperatures get below 15F. This furnace is rated at 80% of the gas heat into the house and uses a two stage burner to run at low gas burning rates most of the time, except during exceptionally cold weather. The also make 90% efficient units.

Electric systems require no flue and are 100% efficient or up to 200% efficient using heat pumps. You have to subtract the losses during the outside coil defrost cycle for heat pumps however. Heat pumps must switch to A/C mode for a half hour or so at intervals to melt frost buildup on the outside unit. On foggy days, this defrost cycle may be activated often enough to largely offset the electrical savings of the heat pump. It depends on local climate.

They make wood stoves that bring outside air into the wood stove from outside which avoids this combustion air infiltration problem. Heating with a wood burning fireplace is terrible in the amount of heated air from the house you lose up the chimney.

I grew up as a boy in a house heated with coal. We had a stoker that was a big metal bin with a screw drive that slowly put coal pellets into the burner box. Every day or so an ash "clinker" had to be fished out. Filling that stoker box with a shovel from the bin was quite a job, but the stoker had a thermostat and avoided tending the furnace every couple of hours otherwise.

Coal is only practical in a few areas close to mines as transport and delivery costs easily offset the fuel savings for small residential users.

With coal heat you could cancel your exercise club membership, and save some more money. :-D

Old saying:

Man who cuts own wood gets warm twice


The best thing I did in our current house is to design for passive solar heat with roof extension louver shades for summer A/C loads, but that is another story.
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Re: Saving HUGE money on heating bills

Unread postby retiredguy » Fri 09 Dec 2005, 16:34:59

I'm currently getting about 80% of my heat from wood, wood that I cut and split myself. Yes, no need for a membership at an excersise club.

I use a chainsaw to cut, but am splitting by hand. It feels great to sweat when the temp is below zero.

The big caveat is that not everyone can heat with wood. And I would certainly hate to see a mass conversion to coal. My grandfather used to sell a lot of coal out of his lumber yards. I remember clearly how dirty it was to burn. Environmental concerns aside, I can't see many people wanting to switch to coal or even wood. NG/oil is so much easier.
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