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The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 06 May 2020, 11:16:20

There are many silly mistakes in the movie. But the massive effort to gag Planet of the Humans reveals the refusal by leading climate activists and academics to have an honest discussion about the limits of renewable energy and why renewables alone cannot save us from climate change or solve our energy problems. The EROEI of renewables is just too low to support the complex industrial society necessary to produce them—without the support of fossil fuels in almost every stage. Modern renewables also haven't been able to capture but 2% of our primary energy since I started tracking it in 2004 when it was just .5%. New demand for energy nearly outstrips all gains, despite massive growth rates in installed solar PV and wind capacity.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 06 May 2020, 12:26:44

exactly Monte. I have pointed out time and again over the past decade or so I've been here that a solution requires one that uses hydrocarbons as the base and then gradually supplements at increasing levels through all types of alternatives ...wind, solar, water and most importantly nuclear. The "leave it in the ground" cry seems to come from those who either can't be bothered to inform themselves about the facts or are just stupid. The movie is good in that it exposes some of the stupid myths surrounding green energy but it is also bad in that it tends to throw out the baby with the bathwater. There is a model which can employ all forms of energy....cleaner emissions from oil and gas, clean coal, water power where is is available, wind and solar to add to a hydrocarbon supplied power base and be available in off the grid areas.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 06 May 2020, 13:21:37

rockdoc123 wrote:There is a model which can employ all forms of energy....cleaner emissions from oil and gas, clean coal, water power where is is available, wind and solar to add to a hydrocarbon supplied power base and be available in off the grid areas.


Ultimately, our electrical infrastructure will need to be supported solely by renewables. And the discussion needs to be what kind society can they realistically support in what time frame. Even that transition will require massive changes in our infrastructure. I see the necessity for a cap on new energy demand that will force conservation and efficiency moves to stay under the cap as the population grows and energy demand with it. But without a world govt, that seems unlikely to ever happen.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 06 May 2020, 15:31:33

Again good points Monte. I guess in retrospect maybe Trumps anti-globablism view is somewhat supportable. North America (and you could include Mexico in that as well) could easily function as it's own energy source and sink. Heavy oil from Canada could mix with light oil from the US for US refineries at PaddIII and the Gulf Coast and US light oil could supply Eastern Canadian refineries with all the oil they needed and it might include some mix of Western Canadian heavy and US light depending on which refinery was being served. Natural gas is in abundance and could easily supply a lot of electricity for many areas. Hydro is a good source as it stands but I don't think it is good land use to build more dams of the like we have seen lately, meaning other sources are needed. Wind has proven to be undependable even in areas where it is perpetually windy and solar has failed when it was tried on a large scale. Both of these could support the grid but I don't think could provide base loads. Nuclear requires a serious relook. I think Bill Gates recently pointed out that technology has come a long long way since 3-mile island. We can build safer plants and there should be no reason for failure if the plant site was chosen correctly. A friend of mine made the comment recently....its not like we have Mr Burns and Homer Simpson running the plants any longer. As well we can probably recycle much of the Uranium that was previously thought as waste with better processing capabilities today. I think this is all doable, nobody wants to go there as they are too tied up in their Green- No Green approach to things.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby sparky » Thu 07 May 2020, 05:21:43

.
The main US industry is creating greenbacks , by far
all the money given away to various wall street companies are foreign money
the US dollar is the world trading currency ,
this allow the US reserve bank with a press of a button , to "print" trillions of dollars
there is no american manufacturing muscle left anymore except military weapons forced down the throat of "allies"

should the US have to finance its extravagant military spending from its own resources
it would be twenty time smaller
should the US have to finance its extravagant "rescue" from its own resources
it would be nonexistent
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Thu 07 May 2020, 06:51:48

sparky wrote:. The main US industry is creating greenbacks , by far all the money given away to various wall street companies are foreign money the US dollar is the world trading currency , this allow the US reserve bank with a press of a button , to "print" trillions of dollars there is no american manufacturing muscle left anymore except military weapons forced down the throat of "allies"


How do you figure creating dollars is the main industry? The rest of the world is creating dollars and their own money too. The world creates dollar dominated debt in the form of Eurodollars BTW. It is a huge financial flow with the US only a part of it. The US is in the top in manufacturing, services, and agriculture so saying finance is all it does is not valid. Wall street is finance and they take the first press of the money and put it to work. Yes, the size of Wall Street makes it parasitic but that does not mean it is not relevant. Globalism survives because of Wall Street and the related financial centers in Asia and Europe. Saying the US is only a power because of the military is dead wrong. It is the military that turbo charges American production of things and services.

sparky wrote: should the US have to finance its extravagant military spending from its own resources it would be twenty time smaller should the US have to finance its extravagant "rescue" from its own resources it would be nonexistent


Do you have numbers for that or are you just feeling emotional about that subject? The US military is a resource. For many in the world it is a danger with costs but far more profit from the protection. I was pro Tulsi because she wanted to streamline the military to reflect the new global multi-polar realities. Yet, saying the US military is useless and the US a joke without it is nothing but anti-American emotions. The Russians, Chinese, and Europeans are doing it too. It is just the US economy is so big and its economy a significant military manufacturer it is in a whole other class. This needs to change but in todays crazy world it will likely not change by policy. Instead the decline process globalism will shrink the US military over time. If there is a WWIII it will shrink quicker because that will end the global economy as we know it.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 07 May 2020, 08:53:19

sparky wrote: The main US industry is creating greenbacks, by far all the money given away to various wall street companies are foreign money.


Only about $6.78 trillion of the $25 trillion US National Debt is held by foreigners. Most to the money going to Wall Street companies is coming from the Fed's purchase of US Treasuries, not foreigners. The Fed is monetizing the US debt.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby jedrider » Thu 07 May 2020, 11:18:48

I look at it this way. We are currently pumping the Ogallala Aquifer dry in order to feed ourselves, to keep up our meat eating proclivities. What happens when that is gone? There is no such long term thinking as that will collapse the current economic regiment of BAU. BTW, the PBS series H2O is really a fantastic summary of our water woes current and to come.

We're heading off a cliff at full speed and no one can deny this. Can high-speed rail be the answer? It is predicated on population growth. Everything is predicated on population growth, monetary growth, energy growth (hey, at least there is efficiency in that equation, including renewables, but it won't put an end to BAU).

We're going to be a train wreck ourselves. Even the Murder Hornet will be having a field day with us.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby C8 » Fri 08 May 2020, 01:01:50

jedrider wrote:.We're going to be a train wreck ourselves. Even the Murder Hornet will be having a field day with us.


Murder Hornet is no joke- it kills 50 people a year in Asia. And although mosquitoes kill millions each year I would not want to meet something this big (if in fact it is here, which is disputed)

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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby sparky » Fri 08 May 2020, 03:29:02

.
the US balance of trade is financed by the creation of dollars

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/BN ... view=chart
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Fri 08 May 2020, 05:57:57

sparky wrote:.
the US balance of trade is financed by the creation of dollars

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/BN ... view=chart


Hardly a clear cut benefit except for the wealthy elite.

“How The Triffin Dilemma Affects Currencies”
https://www.investopedia.com/financial- ... ncies.aspx

“By "agreeing" to have its currency used as a reserve currency, a country pins its hands behind its back. To keep the global economy chugging along, it may have to inject large amounts of currency into circulation, driving up inflation at home. The more popular the reserve currency is relative to other currencies, the higher its exchange rate and the less competitive domestic exporting industries become. This causes a trade deficit for the currency-issuing country but makes the world happy. If the reserve currency country instead decides to focus on domestic monetary policy by not issuing more currency, then the world becomes unhappy.”
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Fri 08 May 2020, 07:30:50

I posted this on resilience dot org just a minute ago. I post it here becuase it is a good view of the film's basis but from a pshcological view point. I am not sure my comment will take becuase it was longish but I feel some points need at least a page of ideas.

https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020 ... s-reviews/

I have been talking about the FAKE Green of renewables for years now. I don’t need this film to enlighten me. I am not being cocky here these issues are common sense if you follow the physics and the economics without agenda. My REAL Green which is realistic and relative Green is focused on wisdom first. This wisdom starts with acceptance of failure of the human enterprise and from there goes forth in action. The issues with growth and emissions must begin with behavior not tech. Behavior must be adapted and then tech will be used as needed. If tech is driving policy then it turns into what it is today of just another growth racket that is greenwashed.

My central point is at the top where policy becomes corruption this is where green and brown become deceptive tools of agendas. Science of the problems has for the most part been honest. Climate denial has failed except with those who will never change their opinion anyway. Where good science is corrupted today is the science behind solutions. This is a key point of the human flaw of fantasy futures. Honest science that talks about planetary decline goes dishonest when it talks about fantasy solutions of things like the various Green New Deals. Tech is the central reason for this. Our techno world is capitalistic. Tech drives affluence with innovation and growth. For the greens to sell affluence at the level of policy they must greenwash this narrative. You will never sell lower affluence so what we get instead is renewables that are just extenders instead of alternatives lowing the human footprint. It is a “cake and eat it too” in a catch 22 carbon trap with impossible path dependencies to brake and still maintain the status quo. You cannot sell less at the top of the human food chain of affluence and that is where the power is..

I do solar with batteries. I am a permaculture farmer. I practice conservation. Yet, I am also honest that these green activities have limits in a status quo world. I can do them because I am drenched in fossil fuels from my investments in the earlier days I live off of now. I cannot live off of my green permaculture life and still maintain a modern life without that connection. So, my point is we need a behavior of honesty embracing acceptance that we as the individual are trapped because society is trapped. From there activity goes forth to do what you can to lower your foot print. Further the top is lost in moral hazard of existential lies. Degrowth that is absolutely essential to this equation will not sell at the top. It will be reactively adapted to because nature will enforce the reality of physical and economic limits. This is a paradigm of decline that is nonnegotiable. This decline is planetary but also with human civilization making it set in stone.

This means go local and individual to address decline. Downsize with dignity because meaning will come from being more resilient and sustainable from a lower footprint. Scale is the key to success because proper scaling allows constructive change in a world in destructive change. Accept the status quo of globalism cannot be reformed and go forth to mitigate it with the tools at hand. This will mean green and brown because the status quo is hopelessly green and brown. What this means is your behavior starts with degrowth as the primary focus and applies tech as needed. This is the Amish way but they do it for religious reasons. In your case you do it to get closer to the truth of the planetary situation. A degrowth wisdom of what tech to use and not to use then becomes your gatekeeper. A smaller footprint will use less so a wisdom of smaller footprints creates more. The more is a spirituality of meaning. This is a journey of awakening. The destination is a world in decline. It is only by the honest acceptance of the existential trap humans are in can you transform yourself greener. Once you have been awakened then all else falls into place.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 08 May 2020, 08:02:31

jedrider wrote:I look at it this way. We are currently pumping the Ogallala Aquifer dry in order to feed ourselves, to keep up our meat eating proclivities. What happens when that is gone? There is no such long term thinking as that will collapse the current economic regiment of BAU. BTW, the PBS series H2O is really a fantastic summary of our water woes current and to come.

We're heading off a cliff at full speed and no one can deny this. Can high-speed rail be the answer? It is predicated on population growth. Everything is predicated on population growth, monetary growth, energy growth (hey, at least there is efficiency in that equation, including renewables, but it won't put an end to BAU).

We're going to be a train wreck ourselves. Even the Murder Hornet will be having a field day with us.


Jedrider,

It would be interesting to make economist work our our “water budget”. See what kind of magic they come up with to find alternatives to water.

Sadly I agree deeply with your assessment.

Water is a real commodity. I just got the idea of a currency backed by water. In many ways more valuable than gold. Flush out the fiat currency. Maybe something like $1/gallon. Then see how things develop.

Actually I really like that idea. 8)
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 08 May 2020, 09:03:07

REAL Green wrote:This means go local and individual to address decline. Downsize with dignity because meaning will come from being more resilient and sustainable from a lower footprint.


This will be the only path we can take as the bottleneck narrows. Like you, I have a low footprint now due to past investments from my fossil fuel enabled past. The energy-efficient, all-electric earth-sheltered home I built is only 650 sqft with 1 foot thick walls. I am working on a wind generator from an old windmill. We have hundreds around here for parts. It will provide supplemental heat via a 12v resistant heater in the winter. Meanwhile, they put up hundreds of huge wind turbines around me without the grid capacity to move the power they generate.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 08 May 2020, 09:09:25

Newfie wrote: Water is a real commodity. I just got the idea of a currency backed by water. In many ways more valuable than gold. Flush out the fiat currency. Maybe something like $1/gallon. Then see how things develop.


$250 trillion in debts would default with an inability to service the debt. Remember the correlation between GDP growth and debt once a fiat currency abandoned its gold backing that limited its expansion.

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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 08 May 2020, 10:01:07

Monte,

My thinking is someday someone will come by and trip over the monopoly board. All that fake money will scatter, most will simply disappear. POOF!

Then we start over. And THAT will both hard and interesting.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 08 May 2020, 10:54:56

Newfie wrote:Monte, My thinking is someday someone will come by and trip over the monopoly board. All that fake money will scatter, most will simply disappear. POOF! Then we start over. And THAT will both hard and interesting.


That's what Germany did back in 1948 after the war. Each person was allowed to exchange 60 of the old Reichsmarks for 60 new Deutschemarks. Germans, who had gone to bureaucratic offices to pick up their ration coupons, instead received 40 Deutschemark in the new currency and an additional 20 Deutschemark soon after. The overall result was to shrink the German currency supply by 90 percent. In other words, Germans got 1 Deutschemarks for every 100 Reichmarks. This wiped out 90% of government and private debt, as well as private savings. German stock and bond indices had a 90% decline in June 1948. The currency reform only applied to the three zones occupied by the United States, Britain and France, but not West Berlin. The Soviets followed the currency reform with a blockade of all roads into the Soviet zone making West Berlin inaccessible. The Currency Reform of June 1948 led directly to the Berlin Blockade and the airlift that saved the people of West Berlin from starvation. East Germans lost everything, and had to wait forty years before their currency was replaced by the Deutschemark.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 08 May 2020, 11:22:48

Monte,
Yup that’s what I’m thinking will happen. My in—-laws went through that. That only effected cash. If you owned a business then you still owned the business.

It would be much more complicated now.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby C8 » Wed 27 May 2020, 14:48:23

I warned this would happen and it finally did- Greens increasingly are fearful of debate and want censorship of any views contrary to their own. They know the facts are against them.

Circular firing squad scores a hit: Real reason Michael Moore’s film axed from YouTube is climate wrongthink, not copyright

Michael Moore’s popular yet controversial exposé of the “green” movement’s corruption has finally been knocked off YouTube by a tactic that’s as cowardly as it is underhanded. Nothing upsets a cult like a successful apostate.

Planet of the Humans,” posted to YouTube for free viewing on Earth Day, to the horror of the climate-change industrial complex, was removed from the platform on Monday, after a British environmental photographer filed a copyright claim. The deplatforming represents a triumph for the deep-pocketed “green” superstars who’ve been tearing their hair out over the film for the past month, livid over the unflattering portrayal of their crusade by the once-beloved liberal filmmaker, but unable to shut him up.

Photographer Toby Smith claimed the film – which had been viewed more than 8.3 million times before its removal – used “several seconds” of footage he’d shot of rare earth elements being mined without his permission. Unlike previous attempts to get the film taken down – which targeted its distributor with claims the film was packed with falsehoods and “fossil fuel industry talking points” – this angle of attack was successful, concealing the iron fist of censorship within the velvet glove of copyright law.

Smith could have gone directly to the filmmakers and complained, rather than running directly to YouTube. But the photographer made no secret of his true intentions. “I wasn’t interested in negotiation,” he told the Guardian on Tuesday, sniffing that he didn’t “agree with its message” and condemning “the misleading use of facts in its narrative.”

Michael Moore’s latest film targeted ‘renewables’ & accused ‘green’ groups of being in Big Energy’s pockets. It hit a nerveMichael Moore’s latest film targeted ‘renewables’ & accused ‘green’ groups of being in Big Energy’s pockets. It hit a nerve

Heaven forbid facts be used to support a narrative one disagrees with! That’s “disinformation,” in the Orwellian Newspeak parlance of centrist-liberal orthodoxy. Indeed, Smith and the rest of the film’s critics have tried every disingenuous trick in the book to get Moore’s film taken down, from guilt by association (it’s “endorsed by climate skeptics and right-wing think tanks!”) to shaming celebrity pile-ons. Documentary-maker Josh Fox even briefly convinced the film’s distributor to pull it by claiming it was “dangerous, misleading and destructive to decades of progress in environmental policy, science and engineering” – only to see it reinstated so as not to trigger the Streisand Effect (in which the backlash to censorship sees the offending work skyrocket in popularity as people flock to see what the controversy is about).

However, a copyright claim lets the haters memory-hole the film while maintaining plausible deniability around the censorship issue, allowing YouTube to dodge the thorny issue of deplatforming an Oscar-winning documentarian.

Never mind that Smith, like his climate-bigwig fellow critics Bill McKibben and Michael Mann, has an ideological motivation for silencing Moore. The film eviscerates the hypocrisy of the green movement, depicting the self-styled saviors of the planet as money-grubbing opportunists in bed with the same Big Oil interests they claim to oppose. The “renewable energy” that’s supposed to solve the climate crisis is revealed to be as environmentally devastating as the fossil fuels we’ve been taught to revile. Copyright lets YouTube claim they’re “just following orders.”

Jeff Gibbs, director of “Planet of the Humans,” recognized the spurious copyright takedown as an “act of censorship by political critics,” calling it a “misuse of copyright law to shut down a film that has opened a serious conversation” about “green capitalism” and Wall Street profiteering within the environmental movement. “This is just another attempt by the film’s opponents to subvert the right to free speech,” he told the Guardian, adding that he was working with YouTube to get the film back up.

But Big Climate doesn’t want a serious conversation. They’re accustomed to knocking heretics off social media – or at least marginalizing them – with minimal effort. Well-funded online activism group Avaaz has been engaged in a full-frontal assault on “climate misinformation” on YouTube for months, implicitly threatening both the video platform and the brands whose ads appear on climate-skeptical videos with the wrath of millions of armchair inactivists if they don’t suppress the offending content. Just last week, Facebook’s fact-checkers squelched a PragerU video debunking the “climate change is killing the polar bears” meme, even though it was backed by expert science.

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/489836-michael ... copyright/
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 27 May 2020, 16:31:12

Story not being carried by any MSM as far as I can see.
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