Solar PV generation is also much cheaper on the grid side than on the rooftop.KaiserJeep wrote:kub, my basic assumption is that oil peaked and is in decline. Natural Gas and Coal will also peak. Then FF-sourced grid electricity, and transportation, will eventually be 10X (or more) as expensive as today, prohibitively expensive.
Last assumption: we must use the last gasp of FF's to convert the country's power infrastucture to renewables. This is without even disputing your numbers. The IER figures say coal powered electricity costs $0.032 kWh to produce, and after the markups that comprise the grid expenses and profit, it sells for a retail price of about $0.130 kWh. When coal fired electricity is selling for $1.30 kWh (mainly because we ran out of cheap oil to mine it with), wind and solar PV are both far more attractive than FF's - lots cheaper, even with batteries.
Remember the oil peak.
Study by Brattle Economists Quantifies the Benefits of Utility-Scale Solar PVUtility-scale solar photovoltaic (PV) systems in the U.S. are significantly more cost effective than residential-scale (rooftop) PV systems. The generation cost of energy from 300 MW of utility-scale PV solar is roughly one-half the cost per kWh of the output from an equivalent 300 MW of 5kW residential-scale systems. The study attributes the large difference in per-MWh costs between utility- and residential-scale systems primarily to economies of scale and greater solar electric output resulting from optimized panel orientation and tracking assumed for utility-scale systems. The improved orientation and tracking of utility-scale solar also result in a higher capacity factor. The reason utility-scale solar saves so much more carbon than rooftop PV is because the solar energy per MW is much higher on utility-scale due to better placement and tracking capability.
Source please. This contradicts multiple sources I have read on this topic.KaiserJeep wrote:California has recently proved that large solar is not cost effective (either in solar PV or solar thermal), and that residential scale all the way up to medium scale Solar PV is practical, economical, and increases grid stability while reducing the need for "peaking" facilities.
kublikhan wrote:Existing costs for grid electricity are fairly modest. And that modest cost energy is available to us 24/7. Also, there is very little education that you need for using grid electricity. So grid electricity is cheap, convenient, and requires very little education. You are proposing we consider a system that is expensive, inconvenient, and requires a considerable amount of education to bring us up to speed. All for a modest payoff at best. This is not a very compelling argument you are making. So I don't think it is that surprising that hardly anyone considers doing this.
So You Want to Go Off-GridOn-Grid RE
I urge most folks to use the utility grid with their RE system. More than 40 U.S. states have some form of net metering available. This means that a large majority of U.S. utility customers can “bank” any surplus energy their PV system produces with their local utility, and use the credit to pay for future utility electricity usage.
Reality Check
On-grid RE system owners have a great deal. When their resource—sun, wind, or water—is available, they use it. When they make too much energy, the grid takes the surplus and gives credit. And when it’s dark, calm, or the creek is dry, the utility is there to provide the needed energy. Off-grid system owners have to take all the responsibility of generating all of their energy, all of the time.
The most challenging part of off-grid living is dealing with the variable resource. Raising a bunch of kids off-grid taught me a lot of lessons. One is that folks usually assume that electricity will be constant and abundant. This is part of our culture, and off-grid folks are not immune, since they interact with the on-grid culture on a regular basis. While there are many times when RE is very abundant—most every sunny day and whenever there’s a windstorm, for example—there are other times when it’s scarce. Surfing this wave of abundance and scarcity can be satisfying to some of us, but it’s challenging to others.
Grid-Tied, Off-Grid and Hybrid Solar SystemsFor homeowners that have access to the grid, off-grid solar systems are usually out of question. Here`s why:
To ensure access to electricity at all times, off-grid solar systems require battery storage and a backup generator (if you live off-the-grid). On top of this, a battery bank typically needs to be replaced after 10 years. Batteries are complicated, expensive and decrease overall system efficiency.
Of course. It's all about your superior mindset. Only you have seen the light. Us plebes are just not as enlightened as you. I'm sure it had nothing to do with the $20k it would cost to wire you up to the grid. I wonder if you even realize how sanctimonious you are coming off as.GHung wrote:As I said; WHOOSH. It's not about HOW it could be done.
kublikhan wrote:Of course. It's all about your superior mindset. Only you have seen the light. Us plebes are just not as enlightened as you. I'm sure it had nothing to do with the $20k it would cost to wire you up to the grid. I wonder if you even realize how sanctimonious you are coming off as.GHung wrote:As I said; WHOOSH. It's not about HOW it could be done.
pstarr wrote:GHung wrote:As I've said before, it's as much about mindset than anything else. It pretty much goes WHOOSH for most of you because you accept the convenience and faux-security of hyper-complexity as normal and right. Like the rest of you, I'm a slave of centralized complexity, but I can't think of a better way to spend a few extra bucks than to reduce or eliminate those connections one at a time.
You may reduce you natural gas/coal consumption by generating some of your electricity and living small. However the maintenance of your systems depend on a complex series of high-tech industrial energy chains. You may walk or bike to work and get some electricity and heat from the sun. I have done the same, but sadly it matters little really, unless we grow our food and wood, forge our tools and wire from a backyard iron and copper mine. And don't depend on municipal services.
We will certainly never eliminate our connections to the oil pump. The fossil fuels we consume for our homes and cars are a minor fraction of the fossil fuels that are consumed FOR US. It is simply impossible to disconnect the petroleum umbilical cord no matter how we try.
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