Loki wrote:careinke wrote:there are lots of databases out there for finding plants based on permaculture criteria.
Databases are all fine and well, I've learned a lot from books and the internet. But a small fraction of what I've learned by dealing hands-on with the plants in question.Frankly, a permaculturist would have a much much easier time developing the site.
Perhaps. But still, I like to think there's a bit of a gap between someone who's taken a 72-hour online landscape design course versus someone who has 10,000+ hours of hands-on work experience in arboriculture and organic farming, plus 800+ hours of formal horticulture education. Not that I'm bitter
As it turns out, I think the next couple years will turn out to be just as interesting, if not as remunerative, as the permie job. My boss bought a 50-acre tree nursery, which he plans on converting into an organic farm; I'll be managing the tree part during the transition. I must say, he's lucky to have a tree guy like me on board
Might take the permie course one of these days, but arborist certification is a higher priority. I have the work experience and education, just need to take a multiple choice test and write a big fat check to the ISA. The test is easy, but do you have any idea how many tomatoes I have to harvest/process for $350? I shudder to think. Shelling out a grand for a permie cert is out of the question right now.
The food and energy crisis of the early 1990′s stimulated the development of a vibrant and thriving permaculture movement in Cuba.
While receiving some initial support and training from brigades of Australian permaculture volunteers, the leadership, growth and direction of the movement was quickly taken up by the Cubans themselves
Pops wrote:I think the problem isn't that Permaculture ideas are bad, I think the problem is that the word is capitalized and copyrighted. I don't think there is much argument that perennials, whether trees or grass or small fruits or whatever have advantages over annuals in a sustainability/survival sense. Or that the kitchen garden should be close to the kitchen or that straight-line plowing on rolling ground is a bad thing. It's just that I've always had the feeling that all things P are good and all things non-P are less so, it isn't that P favors one religion over another, it's that P is a religion unto itself, LOL
The food forest bit seems to me an attempt at recreating a hunter gatherer existence, yes? It doesn't attempt to replace modern or even less than modern ag, the whole idea is not high yield but low input, that's great as far as it goes. Obviously it isn't a societal solution for a post-energy-slave world but then I don't really have a clue what is.
KaiserJeep wrote:I understand that point, Quinny. My question for you: in the post-oil world, how many Permies does it take to feed the 331 million US citizens?
Surely you don't want them living amongst the Permie farmers, because you would not have any vegetables left for yourself.
KaiserJeep wrote:I understand that point, Quinny. My question for you: in the post-oil world, how many Permies does it take to feed the 331 million US citizens?
KaiserJeep wrote:I understand that point, Quinny. My question for you: in the post-oil world, how many Permies does it take to feed the 331 million US citizens?
Surely you don't want them living amongst the Permie farmers, because you would not have any vegetables left for yourself.
I simply cannot let go of the paradigm I have help onto my whole life: working for the greater good of all 331 million people. Maybe that's the problem I am having with Permaculture, because it is not a solution that saves all of us.
My own work products over the last 35 years have enabled electronic banking, online financial transactions, and stocks and commodities exchanges. All over the world. I am in search of a solution that applies to all 7.1 billions of us.
KaiserJeep wrote:There are roughly speaking, 2.2 million people in the USA who count as farmers of one variety or another. This of course includes the permaculture experts or "permies".
Source: http://www.epa.gov/oecaagct/ag101/demographics.html
Each one of them feeds about 144 people in the USA - and actually more than that, counting food exports.
You say the certified permies are about 1 in 100,000. But (I read carefully) you did not claim that permies were trying to each feed 100,000.
My question is, how many permies have to labor to feed 144 people, the present ratio of farmers to other professions?
I'm thinking that if the answer is significantly more than ONE, permaculture is not going to be accepted as a viable replacement for what you call "industrial agriculture".
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