[Miki]

Over 120 American Coalitions & Organizations Sign Open Letter to the Middle East. Groups protest indiscriminate attacks on civilians, Israel's actions, US policy. I can't tell you how happy I was to receive this letter in my mailbox. It gives me hope as I realize that there are many decent Americans and Jews who share my values, perspective, and goals.
Here is the press advisory, the letter, and the signing organizations:
[web]http://www.endtheoccupation.org/article.php?id=1255[/web]

[Jack]

It gives me hope as I realize that there are many decent Americans and Jews who share my values, perspective, and goals.

Fortunately, they represent only a small minority. The rest of us support our beloved President and his wise Vice-President.

[venky]

Have to agree with Jack. There are an insignificant minority in the American political discourse; unfortunately ofcourse.

[threadbear]

I think, Miki, a good 50 % and perhaps more Americans would agree with this.

[venky]

I think, Miki, a good 50 % and perhaps more Americans would agree with this.

No way, I think it would be unrealistic to expect even 50% of registered democrats to agree with such a position. Political discourse in this country and in both parties for that matter is very much controlled to be extremely pro-Israel. There was a recent poll though that 60% of democrats might favor a more even handed foreign policy in the middle east.

[PenultimateManStanding]

I would guess that most Americans think along these lines: Israel was invaded many times by Arab countries. They won the wars and have every right to keep what they took by force of arms in defensive wars. Giving land for peace doesn't work because the real agenda is the destruction of Israel, not East Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank. Miki has indicated that the reason for insisting on the right of return for descendants of the Palestinians who lost out in 1948 (of which I agree that I need to know more about - for reasons of historical perspective) is so these people can vote the country out of exisitence or something like that. This, and the beastly insistence on violence for nearly 60 years, the suicide bombers who target folks sitting in restaraunts, and the mind-numbing futility of all this violence probably has most Americans quite thoroughly turned-off to the whole Palestinian cause. Their only hope is to win hearts and minds, and they sure aren't doing it here. And if you think it is some kind of "media indoctrination" - get real, the American "media" is fractured, with quite diverse opinions.

[venky]

I would guess that most Americans think along these lines: Israel was invaded many times by Arab countries. They won the wars and have every right to keep what they took by force of arms in defensive wars. Giving land for peace doesn't work because the real agenda is the destruction of Israel, not East Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank. Miki has indicated that the reason for insisting on the right of return for descendants of the Palestinians who lost out in 1948 (of which I agree that I need to know more about - for reasons of historical perspective) is so these people can vote the country out of exisitence or something like that. This, and the beastly insistence on violence for nearly 60 years, the suicide bombers who target folks sitting in restaraunts, and the mind-numbing futility of all this violence probably has most Americans quite thoroughly turned-off to the whole Palestinian cause. Their only hope is to win hearts and minds, and they sure aren't doing it here. And if you think it is some kind of "media indoctrination" - get real, the American "media" is fractured, with quite diverse opinions.

I agree with you that most Americans probably do think along these lines. However, what you have posted is only one side of the story; it totally ignores the suffering of the Palestinians, the quite frequent attacks by the Israeli's in the occupied territories which has killed far more Palestinian civilians than Israelis through terrorism, the systematic cold blooded way that Israel has destroyed the Palestinian economy and daily impedes the Palestinians in the West Bank from living out their livelihoods and economic activities through series of road blocks and checkpoints and movements across the tightly controlled border.

This side of the story is not described fairly or openly in the US mainstream media. And I stress; it is in no way a conspiracy, it is just that the pro-Israeli groups are well organized, articulate and loud and well funded. Anyone who criticizes Israel beyond certain carefully defined limits is ruthlessly attacked, castigated and smeared to the point that there are few journalists or media persons in the major news network who take an anti-Israeli position. There are so many media pundits I can think of the top of head who are radically pro-Israel. Can you think of a single prominent media pundet who is even moderately pro-Palestinian?

Like in the recent crisis, during the rocket attacks on Haifa that at the most killed about half a dozen or so people. Yet I would say atleast 75% of CNN's coverage on that day focussed exclusively on Haifa; the bombing in Lebanon was mentioned only in brief and in passing; although the damage done to Lebanon was far far greater then what was happening in Haifa. Entire residential neighbourhoods reduced to rubble, factories, road, other infrastructure bombed mercilessly and probably dozens of civilians killed.

[Eli]

Venky is right. In the US there is undo influence and support for Israel by both parties. I think if you asked the average democrat on the street they would support this letter whole heartily. Now, on the other hand if you asked the average Democratic Senator or Congressmen they would just give you a lot of lip service. They know who writes the checks for their reelection campaign.

In the US open criticism of Israel is now verboten by both parties and it is thanks to the Necons that we are now in Iraq and they are the ones who are really up in arms about Iran. Actually if you are open to reading all kinds of info Pat Buchanan has done some great articles about how the US blindly favors Israel to our own detriment. In the US any criticism of Israeli policies are often derided as anti-semitic.

But Pen you bring up some good points, the problem Israel is facing is not that her neighbors want a return to the 1967 boarders but that they want to see her total destruction. The right of return of Palestinian descendants who were displaced during the war is just a clever way to destroy the nation of Israel.

[PenultimateManStanding]

I agree with you that most Americans probably do think along these lines. However, what you have posted is only one side of the story; it totally ignores the suffering of the Palestinians, the quite frequent attacks by the Israeli's in the occupied territories which has killed far more Palestinian civilians than Israelis through terrorism, the systematic cold blooded way that Israel has destroyed the Palestinian economy and daily impedes the Palestinians in the West Bank from living out their livelihoods and economic activities through series of road blocks and checkpoints and movements across the tightly controlled border.

Once again, I would guess that mainstream opinion is that these measures are neccessary in dealing with a population deranged by delusions of violent revenge.

Anyone who criticizes Israel beyond certain carefully defined limits is ruthlessly attacked, castigated and smeared to the point that there are few journalists or media persons in the major news network who take an anti-Israeli position.

Can you provide links and instances of this actually happening?

Like in the recent crisis, during the rocket attacks on Haifa that at the most killed about half a dozen or so people. Yet I would say atleast 75% of CNN's coverage on that day focussed exclusively on Haifa; the bombing in Lebanon was mentioned only in brief and in passing; although the damage done to Lebanon was far far greater then what was happening in Haifa. Entire residential neighbourhoods reduced to rubble, factories, road, other infrastructure bombed mercilessly and probably dozens of civilians killed.

I don't know about CNN or television coverage because I don't have a television. Do you know of any media watch type organizations that publish findings on this? I do listen to the right-wing radio guys sometimes, and to hear them say it, the "liberal media" is pro-Hezbollah! The perfidy of The New York Times is a favorite whipping boy of the Right (because, for one thing, they publish classified information about counter-terrorist measures). There's a lot of BS in the world, venky. You know, I have a brother who is so sick of politics that he only follows sports anymore.

[Miki]

I would guess that most Americans think along these lines: Israel was invaded many times by Arab countries. They won the wars and have every right to keep what they took by force of arms in defensive wars.

OK. But why do they continue to steal land (75% of the West bank since the 70s)? Where in the American media do they talk about this stealing? Where do they talk about the illegal settlers that the state of Israel keeps sending to Palestinian towns?

Giving land for peace doesn't work because the real agenda is the destruction of Israel, not East Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank.

We'll never know, cause Israel has never "given" any land for good. Whatever they "give" (and whatever they don't "give"), they invade or steal soon after. That said, polls show that most Palestinians don't want to destroy Israel. They want to live in peace with the Jews, but they want their sovereignity and their rights to be respected. While they are subjected to an apartheid-like society, there is no way on earth there can be any peace. You can't ask someone to make peace with you while you're abusing him/her.

Miki has indicated that the reason for insisting on the right of return for descendants of the Palestinians who lost out in 1948 (of which I agree that I need to know more about - for reasons of historical perspective) is so these people can vote the country out of exisitence or something like that.

That is also why Israel wants to collect all the Jews in the world and move them to Israel. In fact, that is how the Jews stole Palestine to start with: they just ethnic cleansed the area by slaughtering tons of Palestinians and terrorizing the rest so they wuld leave Palestine.

If the Jews did it/do it, why can't the Palestinians do it? Isn't that what democracy dictates? After all, Palestinians want to return to Palestine, not Israel. And the UN and the world have recognized that Palestinians refugees have the right to return to their land. Why Americans who boast of democracy and human rights are precisely the ones to oppose it?

This, and the beastly insistence on violence for nearly 60 years, the suicide bombers who target folks sitting in restaraunts, and the mind-numbing futility of all this violence probably has most Americans quite thoroughly turned-off to the whole Palestinian cause.

The violence has been always two sided. But Americans only see Israel's right to self-defense. And how about the Palestinian's right to self-defense? Americans expect Palestinians to see their houses being demolished, their bank accounts being conficated, their lands being stolen, their kids being killed in front of their eyes, and do nothing about it?

And if you're going to argue that Palestinians started, let me remind you that this all started when the Jews came from Europe to atack the Palestinians. And this is a war that never ended. Let me remind you that---as you and I found out the other day--Ben Gurion himself admitted that the resistance guerrillas were just defending their land and they were no terrorists.

Their only hope is to win hearts and minds, and they sure aren't doing it here.

The Palestinian people don't need anyone's pity. They need that the 60 UN resolutions that Israel has violated are respected. Or is it only Iran and Irak that have to abide by UN resolutions?

And if you think it is some kind of "media indoctrination" - get real, the American "media" is fractured, with quite diverse opinions.

We're not talking about the independent media that only educated people get exposed to. We're talking about what the great majority of people watch/read, and the MSM is so pro-Israel that they don't even question any of Israel's accounts of reality. They just take it for granted. In America, whatever Israel says is reality.

[smiley]

I know this post is going to be very generalizing, but looking as an outsider at the US, and what shapes the opinion in the US I see the following three factors. Please correct me if I'm wrong, and I hope I am.

1) Cultural ignorance
Speaking to Americans (not the people on this forum of course ) I get the strong impression that a large part of the country is completely ignorant about the rest of the world. And that goes for the lower class, middle class as well as those who call themselves intellectuals. And that those who do have that knowledge have obtained it through their own efforts, not by virtue of the educational system.
If you want to understand the Middle East you have to dig into its history, all the way down to biblical times. You have to understand geography, the cultures and the religions.

2) A strong desire to see everything black and white
Americans like to see the world in a framework consisting of good and bad. It is a recurrent theme in movies, news, and politics. The good guy versus the bad guy, the allegiance of justice and democracy versus the axis of evil. In a conflict, someone must be good, and consequently someone must be evil.
In the Middle East there is no black and white, just a whole lot different shades of gray.

3) A biased media.
In contrast to the previous post I don't think the US media is unbiased. I admit that I only get the major channels here CNN, Fox NBC and not the smaller channels, but comparing them to other media, like BBC, SKY, TV5, ZDF they do have a bias. And that bias is not exactly in favor of non-western nations.
So you have a lot of people which are extremely opinionated on a subject, without having the necessary background information to aid that decision, and with a biased media system as only input.

[Miki]

I know this post is going to be very generalizing, but looking as an outsider at the US, and what shapes the opinion in the US I see the following three factors.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, and I hope I am.

So you have a lot of people which are extremely opinionated on a subject, without having the necessary background information to aid that decision, and with a biased media system as only input.

This is exactly the impression I have. There are many very educated people in the US, but most of them have either lived abroad, actively interacted with people from other cultures, or just inveasted a lot of time observing/studying other countries.

[PenultimateManStanding]

why do they continue to steal land (75% of the West bank since the 70s)? Where in the American media do they talk about this stealing? Where do they talk about the illegal settlers that the state of Israel keeps sending to Palestinian towns?

I mentioned the grove owner that I read about who lost some of his grove to eminent domain for purposes of building the fence. I don't know any more than that, how about if you give some specifics and maybe some links on this.

Giving land for peace doesn't work because the real agenda is the destruction of Israel, not East Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank.

We'll never know, cause Israel has never "given" any land for good. Whatever they "give" (and whatever they don't "give"), they invade or steal soon after.

They gave The Sinai back to Egypt and they haven't invaded there. Maybe the Palestinians need a Sadat.

That is also why Israel wants to collect all the Jews in the world and move them to Israel. In fact, that is how the Jews stole Palestine to start with: they just ethnic cleansed the area by slaughtering tons of Palestinians and terrorizing the rest so they wuld leave Palestine.

I'll just have to read the history for myself, miki. BTW, what do you make of the Hebron Massacre of 1929? I linked it the other day but I didn't see you post anything about it, unless that's what your "is this Ottoman Empire" remark was about.

If the Jews did it/do it, why can't the Palestinians do it? Isn't that what democracy dictates? After all, Palestinians want to return to Palestine, not Israel. And the UN and the world have recognized that Palestinians refugees have the right to return to their land.

But you just said they want to return to Palestine, not Israel. Is this what the UN and the international community support?

This, and the beastly insistence on violence for nearly 60 years, the suicide bombers who target folks sitting in restaraunts, and the mind-numbing futility of all this violence probably has most Americans quite thoroughly turned-off to the whole Palestinian cause.

The violence has been always two sided. But Americans only see Israel's right to self-defense. And how about the Palestinian's right to self-defense? Americans expect Palestinians to see their houses being demolished, their bank accounts being conficated, their lands being stolen, their kids being killed in front of their eyes, and do nothing about it?

There's an awful lot I don't know, but this is, after all, a thread about American opinion. Everybody is about self-defence. Even the Nazis were about defending Germanic folk from eventual obliteration. They were right, too, look at how Germany is depopulating. Eventually there won't be any Germans. So Palestinians "defend" themselves by blowing up random diners in street-side cafes? That doesn't play too well in Peoria, miki. Besides the satisfaction of bumping off a few Israelis, what does it get them? nothing, that's what I mean about the futility of it all. The Israelis aren't going anywhere.

And if you're going to argue that Palestinians started, let me remind you that this all started when the Jews came from Europe to atack the Palestinians. And this is a war that never ended. Let me remind you that---as you and I found out the other day--Ben Gurion himself admitted that the resistance guerrillas were just defending their land and they were no terrorists.

I think he was saying that the terror didn't originate with Hitler or Mussolini. There is no question that what the Palestinians are doing is terrorism in that it is attacks against civilian population that they are conducting. When Israelis bulldoze Palestinian homes, are they homes randomly selected or the homes of "resistance fighters", i.e. terrorists? As for your first point, note that Ben Gurion stated that Jews merely wanted to settle there; whatever the truth is on this issue, it was the Holocaust that got this started, historically. And the Palestinans were allied with and sympathetic to Hitler and the Nazis. They picked the wrong side. They screwed up and are now one of the biggest bunch of losers on the planet. That doesn't look like it will change any time soon. If any of you Americans think I have misrepresented American mainstream opinion, set me straight, but I think I've nailed it.

[nwildmand]

That is also why Israel wants to collect all the Jews in the world and move them to Israel. In fact, that is how the Jews stole Palestine to start with: they just ethnic cleansed the area by slaughtering tons of Palestinians and terrorizing the rest so they wuld leave Palestine.

I'll just have to read the history for myself, miki. BTW, what do you make of the Hebron Massacre of 1929? I linked it the other day but I didn't see you post anything about it, unless that's what your "is this Ottoman Empire" remark was about.

dont forget the 1920 palestine riots pms: Riots

i cant seem to find a source that states the jews started the violence first.

[rogerhb]

dont forget the 1920 palestine riots pms. i cant seem to find a source that states the jews started the violence first.

Being released from the Ottoman Empire does not mean you want to live under British Mandate.

[nwildmand]

of course it doesnt roger. it seem g.b. really played the fence on this one. the british were really anti semitec at the time.

[PenultimateManStanding]

[
dont forget the 1920 palestine riots pms.

right. There's something else that needs saying: The Jews are culturally gifted. Sure they've got criminal gangs and bolsheviks and all that crap. But they are a vibrant, contributing branch of humanity. They make things happen. The Palestinians are dead-enders, contributing nothing; as long as they dwell in violent delusions of revenge they are stymied. If they are to back out of the cul-de-sac they are in, they will have to adjust to reality as it is now. This endless mulling over of past grievances doesn't help them. In their core desires, the world won't help them. The world may pay them lip service and say tsk tsk, those mean Israelis, etc. But when it gets right down to it, the world won't help them and they have to help themselves. Committing suicide and lobbing ineffectual missles is not going to get it done.

[Gigashadow]

[
dont forget the 1920 palestine riots pms.

right. There's something else that needs saying: The Jews are culturally gifted. Sure they've got criminal gangs and bolsheviks and all that crap. But they are a vibrant, contributing branch of humanity. They make things happen. The Palestinians are dead-enders, contributing nothing; as long as they dwell in violent delusions of revenge they are stymied.

This is true for much of the middle east, though. Very little, if anything, in the way of scientific or technological innovation has come out of there in the past 100 years.

[nwildmand]

this is also an interesting read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exo ... Arab_lands

seems that arabs have been implementing porams and genocide against jews for 1000 years. they just quit puttin up with the shit in the last century.

[PenultimateManStanding]

[
dont forget the 1920 palestine riots pms.

right. There's something else that needs saying: The Jews are culturally gifted. Sure they've got criminal gangs and bolsheviks and all that crap. But they are a vibrant, contributing branch of humanity. They make things happen. The Palestinians are dead-enders, contributing nothing; as long as they dwell in violent delusions of revenge they are stymied.

This is true for much of the middle east, though. Very little, if anything, in the way of scientific or technological innovation has come out of there in the past 100 years.

The people in that region are a sad fall-off from their former greatness, many centuries ago. but the Palestinians are the bottom of the barrel. Their fellow Arabs seem to be sick and tired of them. And then there is Iran; they had laborers' demonstrations in 2002 where they were carrying signs saying, "Forget Palestine, How About Us?" or something to that effect. I don't think the average Iranian wants to "wipe Israel off the map".