cube wrote:Well guys it's been fun but it's time for me to step out.
Everybody had plenty of an opportunity to speak their mind
*look at how many pages there are! - that's a lot for 1 person to reply to*
so I don't want to hear anyone complaining or accusing me of trying to avoid the issue b/c that is false.
Sorry Quinny you showed up too late to the party.
Bas and bl00k I found your discussions to be the most fruitful.
Later guys
Nickel wrote:Javaman wrote:You haven't explained why capitalist countries do better than comunist countries
Do they? Are you sure? The United States spent forty years after WWII living off the fact that its principal competitors in Europe and Japan were under reconstruction and economically beholden to it, and the twenty subsequent years living off their credit like some unemployed uncle flopped on your couch, and the result is a financial crisis that just might rival the Great Depression. If the Soviet Union had lived a trillion dollars a year beyond its means, hey...Javaman wrote:If West Germany and South Korea really were doing well because they had "help" from the US, why weren't Eastern Europe and North Korea not doing better with the "help" they had from large communist nations? And again, why the Iron Curtain and Berlin Wall?
Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but... how many millions of people did the United States lose in World War II? How many Stalingrads were fought on its soil? How many of its cities endured three-year sieges like Leningrad? How many hundreds of miles did its armies have to retreat, leaving behind infrastructure that was used against it, and finally destroyed on the retreat of the foe? All things considered, the marvel isn't that the Soviet Union and its bloc did so poorly after the war, but that in fact they did so well. They managed to go toe-to-toe with us for forty-five years. They became a nuclear superpower, built the first ICBM, they put the first satellite in orbit, the human being in space, sent the first object to the Moon, built the first space station, all while rebuilding from a conflict the likes and scope of which the United States has never seen on its own soil. In truth, it's astounding they managed all that. Unquestionably the paranoia of their political system was objectionable but that's not automatically part-and-parcel of a centralized economy or socialist ideas about managing the wealth of a society. Confronted with the resources available to the US and its Western allies, they faced a considerable bleed-off of labour in Berlin, and made regrettable decisions in dealing with it. The United States makes such policies, attempting to erect a similar, if legislative, wall around Cuba, for example.
Now I have repeatedly responded to your questions. I would like you to address mine. And those were:
- why some communist countries were better off than others
- why they were better off than free-market economies in the Third World
- why the Soviet Union gave us a run for our money for 50 years as the other superpower, surpassing the might of all free market economies but one, and looks on the verge of doing so again
- why China, a planned economy, is in a position to lend money to Western economies (the United States in particular), and a creditor to free market economy debtor nations
We'd all like to know why capitalism was not the automatic road to affluence, why planned economies can end up effectively owning the great free market ones, and how there can be actual disparities within systems you're so sure are absolutes in black and white. Please enlighten us.
Quinny wrote:Which is why as Marx always said Socialism has to be International!cube wrote:Yes the 2nd factory will be built ---> but in a different country.Snowrunner wrote:And your point being? As I went on to post later the second factory will STILL be opened if there is a market for it's product. 10% return on an investment is better than NO return.
A country with lower taxes because it doesn't have to provide as much social welfare.
Bas wrote:cube wrote:
Granted you received a benefit from government, perhaps universal health care. That seems quite popular amongst the middle class and the poor too.
But did society really climb one step higher on the ladder at the expense of a rich man being forced to take one step down?
An argument can be made the middle class gained nothing.
They simply received "free" health care insurance by sacrificing thousands of ship building jobs.
Receive B but Sacrifice A.
I'd say that the same number of jobs would be created in healthcare and that the product is far more beneficial to far more people than one man's pleasure yacht.
Even if laborers were paid more at the expense of the rich guy they would expend that money on far more efficiently produced goods and services than the one yacht and therefor the overall welfare would increase by much more than the one yacht, also in this case the number of jobs would be the same.
If I would follow your line of reasoning though, I could make the argument that there would be more jobs than on the yacht as a yacht entails more capital costs. A yacht infact would result in net joblosses.
cube wrote:Of course it was a statement!oiless wrote:No. I understand perfectly.
.....
If you want to make statements the onus is on you to prove them, not upon others to disprove them.
But notice how it was worded.
Simply stated: Why does income redistribution not work?
You only need to give 1 counter-example and that would completely destroy my point.
But you never even tried!
How hard can it be to find only 1 example?
If you disagree with me then you obviously must have one example in mind right?
I mean that is why people disagree with each other right?
Because they have one example in mind.
For example if I said, "all sheep are white" and you disagreed with me and said, "I saw a black sheep and I know where it is.......oh! but I'm not going to show it to you. That's your problem not mine."
*cough*
I think it is you who is being unfair.
oiless wrote:...
In case you still monitor this thread:
Why would I do that? You've been given numerous examples by others, which you have ignored.
You made a statement and you have no intention of changing your mind about it. It is an article of your faith. I could show you a field of black sheep and you would see them white.
The truth is better served by me pointing out that trickle down economics does not work.
Logical Fallacy - strawman argument.Quinny wrote:I suppose the simple thing is that you (and Mr Bill) assume that government = consumption and cannot create wealth. So we get a factory creating goods/wealth and as soon as it becomes government owned it suddenly becomes consumption. It doesn't work like that!
You sit here and lecture me about how I have already "made up your mind" but without any awareness of your own hypocrisy it seems you too have "made up your mind".Snowrunner wrote:Considering how you phrase the question it is pretty clear that you made up your mind. It's not "could income re-distribution work" it is: "why does it have to fail."
cube wrote:You openly admit that you never had any intentions to reply to my comment seriously.
I think there's a word for that but it's not very flattering.
Well at least you are being honest!
Income inequality can fluctuate because of various reasons. It does not necessarily have to be because of government action.oiless wrote:Oh? What word is that?
Okay, I'll show you a black sheep, however I expect you'll only see white sheep...
From the early 1930's (New Deal) until the late 1960's income inequality in the USA decreased. From then on income inequality increased.
Both these phenomena are the result of wealth redistribution, first from the top down, then from the bottom up.
This wealth redistribution was/is partly caused by changes in the nature of work and by technologies in the work place, but a large portion of it has also been caused by US government policies.
Policies that change the distribution of wealth constitute wealth redistribution.
Javaman wrote:Nickel wrote:Javaman wrote:You haven't explained why capitalist countries do better than comunist countries
Do they? Are you sure? The United States spent forty years after WWII living off the fact that its principal competitors in Europe and Japan were under reconstruction and economically beholden to it, and the twenty subsequent years living off their credit like some unemployed uncle flopped on your couch, and the result is a financial crisis that just might rival the Great Depression. If the Soviet Union had lived a trillion dollars a year beyond its means, hey...Javaman wrote:If West Germany and South Korea really were doing well because they had "help" from the US, why weren't Eastern Europe and North Korea not doing better with the "help" they had from large communist nations? And again, why the Iron Curtain and Berlin Wall?
Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but... how many millions of people did the United States lose in World War II? How many Stalingrads were fought on its soil? How many of its cities endured three-year sieges like Leningrad? How many hundreds of miles did its armies have to retreat, leaving behind infrastructure that was used against it, and finally destroyed on the retreat of the foe? All things considered, the marvel isn't that the Soviet Union and its bloc did so poorly after the war, but that in fact they did so well. They managed to go toe-to-toe with us for forty-five years. They became a nuclear superpower, built the first ICBM, they put the first satellite in orbit, the human being in space, sent the first object to the Moon, built the first space station, all while rebuilding from a conflict the likes and scope of which the United States has never seen on its own soil. In truth, it's astounding they managed all that. Unquestionably the paranoia of their political system was objectionable but that's not automatically part-and-parcel of a centralized economy or socialist ideas about managing the wealth of a society. Confronted with the resources available to the US and its Western allies, they faced a considerable bleed-off of labour in Berlin, and made regrettable decisions in dealing with it. The United States makes such policies, attempting to erect a similar, if legislative, wall around Cuba, for example.
Now I have repeatedly responded to your questions. I would like you to address mine. And those were:
- why some communist countries were better off than others
- why they were better off than free-market economies in the Third World
- why the Soviet Union gave us a run for our money for 50 years as the other superpower, surpassing the might of all free market economies but one, and looks on the verge of doing so again
- why China, a planned economy, is in a position to lend money to Western economies (the United States in particular), and a creditor to free market economy debtor nations
We'd all like to know why capitalism was not the automatic road to affluence, why planned economies can end up effectively owning the great free market ones, and how there can be actual disparities within systems you're so sure are absolutes in black and white. Please enlighten us.
When you study cause and effect, you have to control all but two factors. You can then look at one factor and see how it affects the other. Comparing a capitalist republic in North America with a socialist country in Europe, or with a communist country in Asia, or a developing nation in Africa, or a capitalist democracy in Asia doesn't really get you anywhere because there are too many variables at work. When you compare adjacent countries with cultures that are similar, but that differ mainly in their economic/political systems, a pattern begins to emerge, namely that communism/socialism/collectivism does NOT work as well as capitalism, all things considered. Which is to say, socialism doesn't work. People living under it make often make attempts to avoid its bad effects or to escape from it entirely.
If you don't believe that, ask yourself why the communists built the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain, or why it's so dangerous for North Koreans to attempt to leave their country. Or why ingenious auto mechanics might build these:
http://www.floatingcubans.com/
I like the '59 Buick. Talk about style!
Quinny wrote:Dominican Republic - Haiti
cube wrote:A rich man can only eat so much so therefore, He may put 10% of his money into consumption and 90% into investment.
For the middle class it may be the reverse.
cube wrote:1) Sweden and Denmark have a 50%
2) Austria and Switzerland it's 30%
I'd rather take the 2nd choice!
Snowrunner wrote:A country with lower taxes because it doesn't have to provide as much social welfare.
You do know that most companies in the US spend more per employee than they do in Europe or for example Canada. Certain things scale well, and if you take the profit margin out of the healthcare aspect for example you find that it is overall cheaper.
Chrysler's outspoken former CEO Lee Iacocca is said to be the first to credit public health care as providing Canadian businesses a serious competitive advantage over their U.S. counterparts.
A car built in Detroit in 1984 cost about $500 US more to produce than to do it in Windsor. This amount equalled the value of health care benefits Chrysler was providing to its U.S. employees, while Canadian workers received comparable benefits through the Ontario government.
Today, General Motors estimates that private health care expenditures for workers in U.S. plants add about $1,500 to the cost of each vehicle produced there. Chrysler puts U.S. health care costs at $1,400 per vehicle while Ford says its burden is $1,100. In Canada, GM estimates its costs were less than $500 per vehicle.
oiless wrote:I'll show you a black sheep, however I expect you'll only see white sheep...
cube wrote:Income inequality can fluctuate because of various reasons. It does not necessarily have to be because of government action.
cube wrote:For example it is a fact that rich people have more of their money tied into *investments*. The stock market is a good example.
Therefore if the stock market goes up then the rich will benefit more and Income inequality increases.
If the stock market crashes the rich losses more so therefore Income inequality decreases.
cube wrote:The stock market tends to go up when the economy is good and down when it is bad so an argument can be made that the financial fortunes of the average man tends to also follow the rich.
Both move up together and both move down together.
cube wrote:You sit here and lecture me about how I have already "made up your mind" but without any awareness of your own hypocrisy it seems you too have "made up your mind".Snowrunner wrote:Considering how you phrase the question it is pretty clear that you made up your mind. It's not "could income re-distribution work" it is: "why does it have to fail."
here's some free advice.Snowrunner wrote:...
My hypocrisy? Huh?
You ride in here with a statement. I counter your statement and point out that you made a statement, not posing a question and that makes me a hypocrite?
Someone get cube a dictionary please.
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