[Timo]

Best of luck, Cog. All other differences aside, i'm pulling for you.

[Cog]

Best of luck, Cog. All other differences aside, i'm pulling for you.

Thanks you Timo. If we live long enough, regardless of our positions on peak oil, politics, etc., we will all go through something similar. Its a huge pain in the ass to be honest.

But the good news is you can be proactive to spare your kids a lot of the drama by having a good will or by setting up pay on death or transfer on death accounts. When I die, everything is co-owned by the wife. If we both die within 30 days of each other, then the daughter is a contingent inheritor. Very little remains to settle that way.

[Outcast_Searcher]

As I have donned my executor hat, instead of my guardianship hat, there will be some drama coming up with some of my relatives. As my lawyer has explained, nothing brings out the worst in people than an estate settlement. In this case, I will be selling my father's farm to a farmer and not to my nephew. The farmer's bid was higher, he wants to buy it as is, and with no inspection contingencies. But I know I am going to get some crap about it.

The deal is as executor, your goal is to maximize the assets of the estate and not let family desires/ heartburn affect your decisions. Legally, I don't have to accept any offer, from anyone.

I'm trying to ignore the fact that my nephew couldn't possibly get the financing for this deal. I'm going with the farmer, who has the money, and has pursued the property for months now.

Cog, sorry to hear about your dad passing.

I went through similar stuff years ago with the passing of three loved ones as care-taker, trustee, executor, etc. and you're exactly right on the handling of the assets part.

Your duty is to the estate (or trust, as the case may be).

I just flatly would tell annoying relatives (or friends of the family (some people have amazing nerve when they smell some money)) that I work for "X" (whoever the assets are to go to), and that's all there is to it. If they tried again, I'd refer them to the lawyer (who was supervising the assets for the court), advise them that the lawyer would tell them the same thing, and I'd tell the lawyer to potentially expect a call. At that point, the greedy pesterers tend to give up, in my experience.

....

I think you're generally allowed to make reasonable judgements where there are clear trade-offs, but you need to be able to explain your decisions. You need to keep a clear and professional paper trail. And you sure as HELL need to not be doing things like co-mingling assets -- that's just asking for problems.

Best of luck as you work through this. It does get easier in time, but it's certainly no picnic.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Isn't it better to kill oneself once alzheimer's sets in?

I remember reading about this woman journalist independent person who left herself instructions on how to kill herself that even a demented person could follow.

If I succumb to a mental illness before the world falls apart, I wouldn't want to burden my kids with looking after me. I think I would arrange for some inexpensive help as long as possible.

I'm with you jedi. However, I'd substitute alzheimers with anything that is terminal, or debilitating (pain or function) and incurable. (Different people will prefer different standards, of course).

I'm sincerely hoping that one of the results of a shift to a more secular society and an aging society ever-more burdened with the costs (of all types) of old age, that one major thing changes. That it becomes a normal thing for one to have end-of-life options similar to what you can do for your dog or cat, in their best interests to minimize suffering.

Given how much medical care can be bought by what is spent in the final months or even days of one person dying, the case to give people the right to CHOOSE is compelling both from a moral and a financial perspective, in my opinion.

I believe organized religion (mostly with the best of intentions) has been the primary obstacle to society dealing with this issue in a (far) more rational way. I also believe that people should have the right to choose and should not be coerced by the ideologies of another in such matters.

[jedrider]

I did LIKE the ending to 'Soylent Green': The Euthanasia Center. I'm sure, they meant that as a shock to the movie audience. However, nobody wants to die in pain. If they could make it pleasant, I wouldn't care who ate me afterwards

[careinke]

I did LIKE the ending to 'Soylent Green': The Euthanasia Center. I'm sure, they meant that as a shock to the movie audience. However, nobody wants to die in pain. If they could make it pleasant, I wouldn't care who ate me afterwards

I agree I thought that was a great way to die, no pain, beautiful scenery, great music, and pretty nurses.

I've been toying with the idea of putting a DNR tattoo on my chest. It's the only thing that would convince me to actually get a tattoo. I wonder if it would be considered legally binding? Any lawyers out there?

[SeaGypsy]

For sure some enthusiasts would argue your besties name might be Dianne Nivia Ross & spark you anyhow- probably have to spell it out, weird tattoo guy

There are currently plenty of online channels for 'exit' methods & equipment. My father almost begged me to get him a lethal dose of heroin when he was dying, funny he fell in with a woman who kept him kicking another 18 months- I refused to do it because with my unruly youth I would have been immediately under the spotlight. I can see both sides very clearly- I am the one who is going to decide the time & manner of my passing, but I don't give a hoot about the 'law' I can sort it all myself, nobody else needs to get involved. That's where it all goes pear shaped- people who have lived very conservative lives, unsullied by depraved company- genuinely struggle to get this control, they must rely on others- who have what, say it again- what motive? How can an objective assessment be possible of such a relationship? Given the acutely subjective nature of the conundrum, the law is always confused about it- unless the person clearly acted alone, acquired items themselves, kept them away from others & independent of others used such items to terminate- that is called suicide, in every culture. Assisted suicide is a whole nuther kettle of fish, & in a culture ruled by money it is intensely fraught.

[KaiserJeep]

I knew someone of several years acquaintance who (finally) got a diagnosis of a fatal disease (acute systemic scleroderma, a devastating auto-immune illness that was turning his flesh into a swollen shell around him). He suffered for 8 years while the doctors tried increasingly potent drugs, and at best got only temporary respite from his suffering during the last three years, and he gradually started to look like the Michelin tire man. When he had enough opiates to be pain-free, he fell asleep, and his pain level was ever-increasing. One day he went to the local marine supply and bought 40 feet of chain, a padlock, and a mushroom anchor. Then he rented a sailboat, which returned slowly on autopilot and grounded on the beach next to the USCG small-boat station, with the engine throttled down to minimize damage. No clues, other than two empty wine bottles and a padlock key - no note, but a will that had been updated a month before.

Another longtime friend got a cancer diagnosis - it started in his esophagus, but he was in Stage IV and had tumors throughout his abdomen before the doctors figured out what his "trouble swallowing food" was. He had six months of chemo misery with a plastic stent in his esophagus that allowed him to swallow, and to throw up from the chemo drugs, and then suffered enormous pain before dying. Again, when conscious, he was a Fentanyl zombie, who used to email me using his E-reader from his chemo chair in more lucid but painful moments. It was an enormously hard thing for me to text and mail about trivia such as SF novels, but he and I had known one another for 25+ years, and had Jeeped, fished, and camped together every year. He concealed the worst of his suffering from his family, but not me. He was in Texas and I was in California, but I felt like driving there and smothering him with a pillow sometimes.

Our system of dying needs work - everything from medical ethics and training to education for elderly and sick people.

[SeaGypsy]

My dad died from systemic scleroderma also KJ, with a similar descriptor. In the end it was internal bleeding, I was working away & missed the event at the end.

[Cog]

I think you will find religious viewpoints constantly evolving on end of life decisions. From the Christians I deal with there nearly a universal agreement that a patient refusing treatment for a terminal illness is not suicide. With the advent of hospice workers and a lot of doctors who are getting more intelligent about end of life treatments, there is not as much guilt involved with stopping treatment when there is no hope. That takes a lot of burden away from the family members.

It is important that if you have directives you have them written down and have given someone you trust the power to enforce them. You don't have to accept any medical treatment if you don't want to. If your unconscious, the hospital will try to save you unless someone with medical power of attorney says otherwise.

I'm still unsure on the issue of assisted suicide. I know we try to draw parallels on how we treat our pets versus our seniors. With a pet, they can't tell us what they would prefer to do and can't decide on their own to terminate their life. With our parents or someone we care about, its a discussion we can have and should have prior. As long as there is no coercion involved, I'm for people pretty much deciding how they want to die. I'm not quite comfortable with a Dr Kervorkian traveling around putting people down like a vet would. Seems there needs to be some checks and balances in place to make sure this person really understands their options.

[Timo]

Best of luck, Cog. All other differences aside, i'm pulling for you.

Thanks you Timo. If we live long enough, regardless of our positions on peak oil, politics, etc., we will all go through something similar. Its a huge pain in the ass to be honest.

But the good news is you can be proactive to spare your kids a lot of the drama by having a good will or by setting up pay on death or transfer on death accounts. When I die, everything is co-owned by the wife. If we both die within 30 days of each other, then the daughter is a contingent inheritor. Very little remains to settle that way.

Beat you to that preparation, Cog. I have no kids. Whatever family heirlooms i've inherited, or have created myself will simply be passed down, sorted out among all of my nephews and nieces. I'm not really close to any of them now, so i honestly don't care what happens to any of my shit. My wife feels the same way about our possessions. Our only concern is that our ashes, and those of all of our current and past pets be dumped all together, packed into exploding fireworks, and launched into the sky to the tune of Sky rockets in flight. Afternoon delight.

And remember, you can't spell Timo without TMI.

[Timo]

On assisted suicide, Dr. Kevorkian simply brought the issue to the public's attention. There was a need for assisted suicide among some dark corners of the public. He recognized this need, and decided to fill that void by providing end-of-life assistance to people who simply did not want to continue living under their current physical circumstances. That said, i totally agree with you about the need for checks on who, how, when, and under what circumstances, and all of that. Assisted suicide is something that involves more than just one person, and it's obviously a life or death decision for one party, and a potential huge liability for the other party. That liability could be financial, or even worse, emotional. It's not an easy decision for anybody. Still, i strongly support the necessary steps be taken to allow someone to choose to end their life, under legally defined and legally sanctioned methods. Switzerland currently allows assisted suicide. So does Quebec, and Oregon. I'm sure there are several other nations that are coming to terms with this ultimate fate, and it's obviously not for everybody. It can be, however, a preferable end for some.

[Cog]

Thank you Timo for posting that. You have given us a lot to consider going forward.

[Cog]

I've spoken about being a guardian but being an executor has some different responsibilities. Below are some things I learned so far.

1) Get the certified death certificates from the funeral home as soon as possible. The standard is to give you 15 of them. I ordered 20. In actuality you won't need the 15. Only social security and my dad's life insurance policy required an actual certified copy, the rest of the places I dealt with only wanted a photocopy. But get them quickly because most places want to see one.

2) Get a lawyer. You don't have to give them a percentage of the estate if you have some time to run around yourself. Lawyers cost money to the estate and you can save money by doing the running. There are deadlines involved such as filing the will in the county court house. In my state you have 30 days from time of death to make that happen. Lawyers can make this all pretty and if probate is involved, they can get the judge to sign off on your executor papers fairly quickly.

3) There are several different types of executors. A small estate affidavit if the estate is worth less than $100k. A unsupervised executor, if the estate is larger, which allows you to sell estate assets and estate bills without getting permission. A supervised executor which requires judicial permission for major decisions.

4) Get a bunch of folders. Keep receipts for everything you do. To end your executor status, you will have to show how and to who the estate money was disbursed. Your lawyer can help you do this.

5) It is mandatory to set up an estate checking account in my state even if the deceased has a checking account. The bank can transfer any money in the old one to the new one. you will need to obtain a tax ID number for the estate. An estate's tax ID number is called an “employer identification number,” . You can do this yourself on-line, takes five minutes or your lawyer can do it.

6) There is a precedence of payments when it comes to paying bills. Consult your attorney so you know what those are. Inheritors come last on that list.

7) Most places will want to see a copy of your letters of office as executor before they will talk to you. I got two original stamped originals and everyone so far has only required a photocopy of them. I know when I go to DMV to sell a car, they want a stamped original.

8 ) Unless you were intimately aware of all the financial affairs of the deceased, you are going to have to plunge through all the deceased records to see what assets and bills are lurking in there. In my state you have 60 days to identify those to the probate court judge.

9) Keep your promises to a minimum when it comes to relatives mentioned in the will. Tell them their cut is part of the legal process and you can do nothing to speed it up. That is in fact the truth of it.

10) Most states have a requirement to publish in a newspaper the death of a person and announce that creditors have 6 months to seek monies from the estate. I let my lawyer handle that one.

[Cog]

I wanted to bring up wills because an issue came up that you might run into.

My father did his will verbally and my sister typed it up for him. Two witnesses not named as heirs in the will, signed it along with my father. Perfectly legal to do your own will. One small problem. Before the probate judge will accept it, he wants it authenticated that the witnesses actually did sign it. In my dad's case, the witnesses were still alive and we had to call them and ask them to come to my attorney's office to authenticate it in front of the firm's notary. Had the witnesses been deceased or unwilling to authenticate the will, it would have resulted in a court proceeding.

You can avoid this process if you have the will notarized at the time of signing by the witnesses and the testator. In most states that makes the will self-authenticating.

By the way, don't lose the original inked will. We had several photo-copies of it but that was not good enough. We thought we had lost the original for a while and that would have resulted in yet another court process. I finally found the original buried in the bottom of my file cabinet in an unmarked envelope. I'm a frigging idiot.

If you use an attorney to do the will, they will retain the original inked copy of the will if you desire.

[Timo]

Why does dying have to be so freakin' complicated???!!!

Cog, i'm not dismissing anything you're going through, or have gone through, but reading your last couple of posts hardly makes dying worth all of the legal hassle it inevitably causes to others. The emotional loss seems easy compared to the legal consequences it causes!

I can die with dignity, but the law will be damned if indignities aren't forced upon at least one other person who has to deal with the deceased's will and last wishes.

Yesterday being father's day, three of us five kids had lunch with pop. He's now 89, and still drives on rare occasions. He can't walk without a walker on wheels with hand brakes. He spent some time yesterday sharing his thoughts on the unpleasant eventuality of his move into assisted living, and then a wheel chair, and finally into a bed that he'll never rise from. Based on where he was 5 years ago, all of that is bound to happen within a year, or two at the most.

It's inevitable. We all go through it, either as a son or a daughter, and/or the parent who's time has come and gone. Dying is a part of life. Ce la vie.

[Outcast_Searcher]

I've spoken about being a guardian but being an executor has some different responsibilities. Below are some things I learned so far.

1) Get the certified death certificates from the funeral home as soon as possible. The standard is to give you 15 of them. I ordered 20. In actuality you won't need the 15. Only social security and my dad's life insurance policy required an actual certified copy, the rest of the places I dealt with only wanted a photocopy. But get them quickly because most places want to see one.

On this one, YMMV. For most normal folks without lots of accounts, 10 or so is plenty. (In my experience, you payed $6 for each original, and only got one automatically). You can order more if you find you need more, and for me those arrived in about a week.

Some outfits will take a copy. Some want originals. For some, like a mutual fund family, they might take one for several accounts. Some will return an original once they have processed a claim, if you ask.

2) Get a lawyer. You don't have to give them a percentage of the estate if you have some time to run around yourself. Lawyers cost money to the estate and you can save money by doing the running. There are deadlines involved such as filing the will in the county court house. In my state you have 30 days from time of death to make that happen. Lawyers can make this all pretty and if probate is involved, they can get the judge to sign off on your executor papers fairly quickly.

Definitely right on the lawyer. My parents' estate was relatively complex. I did 95% of the running/mailing/calling/forms myself, and saved a LOT of money. However, it was super valuable to be able to ask the lawyer questions on confusing or complex issues, review the plan/strategy, etc. There are a lot of ins and outs that might be baffling (or unknown) to the layman that a competent lawyer will be completely on top of. And most people don't need to worry about federal estate taxes, but some states have inheritance taxes that might kick in very quickly.

I let the lawyer do the things I found stressful or key not to screw up, like make the court appearances and do the actual filing of the key paperwork (once I'd provided the needed data). I did all the tedious time consuming things. The nice thing there, as Cog said, is you can decide how much you want to do vs. pay.

And you can fire your lawyer or negotiate. My dad's attorney, when I asked for an estimate on the charges during the first meeting, refused to give me a number and talked in terms of a rough percentage of the estate (which was outrageous if I was going to do most of the detail work). So I politely said I'd need to look at alternatives, and he immediately suggested he could use paralegals for most of his work, charge me only for the work they actually did, that I could call and discuss any aspect of any bill I didn't like, etc. Amazing -- roughly 80% of the estimated bill went away via a murmur of dissatisfaction. (If only car salespeople were so open to negotiation).

[Timo]

OK! That's it! I've read enough about postmortem aftershocks. Not worth it. I can't, in good conscience, leave all of those responsibilities to someone else to take care of on my behalf. So, while reading this thread, i've made a decision. I'm simply not going to die. Everything will be much simpler that way. Don't worry, though. I'll turn out the lights.

[Tanada]

OK! That's it! I've read enough about postmortem aftershocks. Not worth it. I can't, in good conscience, leave all of those responsibilities to someone else to take care of on my behalf. So, while reading this thread, i've made a decision. I'm simply not going to die. Everything will be much simpler that way. Don't worry, though. I'll turn out the lights.

When my father was in his 70's he created a trust which held all of his property and with himself as sole executor. He appoint myself as his successor because he trusted me to fairly divide the assets between myself and my younger brother. When he passed in September 2012 at the age of 85 it took me about three months to resolve the paperwork, but over a year to sell the property so I had to get a Tax ID number for the Trust and file income tax returns for two separate years of 'doing business'. Legally I could have squandered everything, but the reason I was given the responsibility was my fathers confidence that I would not do that. Finally in March 2014 the final check was issued and the accounts were closed out dissolving the Trust.

If you seriously want to save your heirs a lot of trouble this method worked very well for our family.

[EdwinSm]

Thanks Cog - a good summary.

I think you will find religious viewpoints constantly evolving on end of life decisions. From the Christians I deal with there nearly a universal agreement that a patient refusing treatment for a terminal illness is not suicide. With the advent of hospice workers and a lot of doctors who are getting more intelligent about end of life treatments, there is not as much guilt involved with stopping treatment when there is no hope. That takes a lot of burden away from the family members.

For 8 years I have been a member of a forum for caregivers of people with a particular type of dementia [FTD], and lots of emotional issues are dealt with.

One problem, which unfortunately seems common, is getting the hospitals and other medical staff (like ambulance workers) to accept a DNR order as they are so programmed to do everything possible to keep life going.

But generally there has been a lot of good reports of hospice treatment, especially as they are trained to make the patient comfortable. They are also good sources of aids (hospital beds etc) if you are caring for someone at home. There is, however, a general grading with people expressing that they find not-for-profit hospices tend to be more willing to provide medicine for comfort than 'for-profit' groups. So if you are in need of hospice care for someone please look around at the options and what they will provide.

Note: I am not writing this from personal experience because the case I am dealing with seems to be a very, very slow moving one, and we are nowhere near the "end of life stage".