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Cholesterol is good for you

Discussions related to the physiological and psychological effects of peak oil on our members and future generations.

Re: Cholesterol is good for you

Unread postby Pops » Sun 15 Dec 2013, 09:55:15

Problem is cholesterol is the bodies natural defence to repair when there is any damage to the arteries/veins.



Cholesterol doesn't go anywhere to repair anything. Arterial plaque is made up of dead white blood cells there to fight oxidized LDL which has become stuck in the arterial lining, the LDL causes the damage.

All this other political stuff about the evil government is great except there is no argument that high LDL/low HDL is bad and at the root of arterial plaque

High sugar intake is bad as well (it is an oxidizer) but that doesn't mean unlimited bacon fat is good.
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Re: Cholesterol is good for you

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 15 Dec 2013, 10:13:52

Moderate drinking has anti-inflammatory effects..... I drink the equivalent of three standard drinks a day. :)
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Re: Cholesterol is good for you

Unread postby dissident » Sun 15 Dec 2013, 10:49:49

Nope, cholesterol does indeed get used to repair cell damage. In fact, over-consumption of vegetable oils, which are unsaturated and have different physical properties compared to saturated fats, causes cholesterol to be used as a structural support:

http://www.nature.com/horizon/livingfro ... d/fat.html

Other cells use lipids to stiffen their membrane. The myelin sheath that surrounds nerve cells needs to insulate the nerve axon for efficient impulse transmission. These cells' fatty acids have long chains that bond to each other, creating a tough coat. Another way to make the membrane more rigid, and less permeable, is to increase its cholesterol content. Our cell membranes are full of cholesterol — around one molecule for every phospholipid molecule. Cholesterol is smaller than phospholipids, and its structure contains carbon rings that form rigid plates; it slots in the gaps between the larger phospholipid molecules, so restricting their movement and stiffening the membrane.


Here is a nice video explaining the role of cholesterol in compensating for structural deficiencies introduced by unsaturated fats in the cell wall (around the 5 minute mark):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YezCM0pgN5g

As for what arterial plaques are composed of, it ain't so simple. Calcification is the main problem with plaques. They can be dissolved before they calcify but not after. Also, conglomerated fatty-acids in the plaques are 75% unsaturated fats. In addition to oxidized and non-oxidized cholesterol, triglycerides contribute to plaque growth as well. The bottom line is that consuming vegetable oils and sugar contributes to plaque growth just like cholesterol. (The triglycerides are formed from glucose and you can have high triglyceride levels even if you hypothetically consumed no fat.)

For more context, the body uses ingested lipids in cells without rebuilding them. So consuming unsaturated fats has a direct bearing on the composition of the cell walls.
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Re: Cholesterol is good for you

Unread postby dissident » Sun 15 Dec 2013, 11:01:49

Surely, every medicine and procedure in modern society is only the best and most benign. To think otherwise is to be a tin foil hat nutjob:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22981406

Statin use is associated with an increased prevalence and extent of coronary plaques possessing calcium. The longitudinal effect of statins on coronary plaque composition warrants further investigation.


My gosh, statins actually make arterial plaques worse. Now if statins removed arterial plaques, which they most certainly do not, then one could justify them. But given all the nasty side effects they have, the best option remains dietary and lifestyle change. By far.
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Re: Cholesterol is good for you

Unread postby Pops » Sun 15 Dec 2013, 12:03:11

Surely, every medicine and procedure in modern society is only the best and most benign

Of course not. OTOH, to believe everything a conspiracy is the book definition of paranoia. So yeah, a knee jerk against the accepted is an indication of tin-hattedness.

From your link:
Compared to the individuals not taking statins, those taking statins had higher prevalence of risk factors and obstructive CAD

Wow! People who've been prescribed statins as a result of possessing risk factors for CAD are found to have higher risk factors for CAD?!
What a breakthrough!
LOL
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Re: Cholesterol is good for you

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 15 Dec 2013, 12:21:15

Statins only do so much ( I guess) mine are history (threw em out). It's like everyone over 60 should be on these.

Lipitor is the worst.
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Re: Cholesterol is good for you

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 15 Dec 2013, 12:46:49

pstarr wrote:The two valuable components in any seed are the oils and germ protein, used to feed and fatten livestock. The remaining starches and sugars are a waste product that must be dealt with in an environmentally responsible fashion; can't have the gunk fouling up waterways, sickening wildlife, etc. As is the case with any low-level pollutant, the 'solution' is often 'dilution' and so the stuff is prettied up in bright packaging, and dispersed all across the nation. We gobble it up. How did All Saints Day become a celebration of pollution?


can a u a speak a English. :)
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Re: Cholesterol is good for you

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sun 15 Dec 2013, 16:32:59

Pops wrote:
Problem is cholesterol is the bodies natural defence to repair when there is any damage to the arteries/veins.



Cholesterol doesn't go anywhere to repair anything. Arterial plaque is made up of dead white blood cells there to fight oxidized LDL which has become stuck in the arterial lining, the LDL causes the damage.

All this other political stuff about the evil government is great except there is no argument that high LDL/low HDL is bad and at the root of arterial plaque

High sugar intake is bad as well (it is an oxidizer) but that doesn't mean unlimited bacon fat is good.


I am sorry to have to tell you this Pops but your understanding of cholesteral is nearly 100% incorrect. Cholesterol is a carrier molecule and a foundation molecule your cells use to manufacture hormones an other substances that make your body function on a cellular level. Cholesterol is also much more complicated than just HDL and LDL, there are about a dozen main types and if you start with the largest as it drop off its cargo of fatty acids to be burned by cells it gets smaller and denser. The kind you want as little of as possible is oxidized small dense LDL. When your ateries become inflammed the cells swell and bend so that they do not make a smooth surface for he blood to flow across. The small dense LDL molecules can fit between these inflammed connections and if hey are oxidized they get jammed up making h inflammation even worse and attracting white blood cells to clean them out. If this process goes on long enough because of a high oxidized small dense particle count and high inflammation the body will put a plauque over the inflammation in an attempt tp protect the inflammed cells from additional damage.

http://youtu.be/dAWdHYSrh7M this is a great explination by Dr. Peter Attia on what cholesterol is and what kinds are more likely to do damage to you.
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Re: Cholesterol is good for you

Unread postby dissident » Sun 15 Dec 2013, 18:55:32

That was a great summary, Subjectivist. Heart disease is another inflammation disease like arthritis. Blaming cholesterol is basically shooting the messenger.
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Re: Cholesterol is good for you

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 15 Dec 2013, 18:57:04

dissident wrote:That was a great summary, Subjectivist. Heart disease is another inflammation disease like arthritis. Blaming cholesterol is basically shooting the messenger.


Yes, inflammation is the killer..... smoke more weed. :P
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Re: Cholesterol is good for you

Unread postby Pops » Mon 16 Dec 2013, 09:20:29

Subjectivist wrote:I am sorry to have to tell you this Pops but your understanding of cholesteral is nearly 100% incorrect.
...

Pops wrote:Arterial plaque is made up of dead white blood cells there to fight oxidized LDL which has become stuck in the arterial lining, the LDL causes the damage.


Subjectivist wrote:The small dense LDL molecules ...get jammed up ... attracting white blood cells to clean them out.... [creating] a plauque over the inflammation.


I see how I was 100% wrong, I used too few words, LOL
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Re: Cholesterol is good for you

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 16 Dec 2013, 18:34:23

Pops wrote:
Subjectivist wrote:I am sorry to have to tell you this Pops but your understanding of cholesteral is nearly 100% incorrect.
...

Pops wrote:Arterial plaque is made up of dead white blood cells there to fight oxidized LDL which has become stuck in the arterial lining, the LDL causes the damage.


Subjectivist wrote:The small dense LDL molecules ...get jammed up ... attracting white blood cells to clean them out.... [creating] a plauque over the inflammation.


I see how I was 100% wrong, I used too few words, LOL


Maybe you will listen to a medical expert seems how my explanation was unclear to you.
http://www.docsopinion.com/2013/10/20/l ... made-easy/

LDL is far to broad of a description Pops, honest I am not making this up.
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Re: Cholesterol is good for you

Unread postby dissident » Mon 16 Dec 2013, 20:47:38

The only thing that matters, if at all, is the LDL to HDL ratio. And the Framingham Heart Study found no robust relationship between this ratio and heart disease.

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/card ... m-follies/

http://www.thincs.org/Malcolm.choltheory.htm

BTW, those "fat and cholesterol" free cookies at your local Second Cup actually lower the HDL to LDL ratio. Consuming carbohydrates (starches not just sugar) leads to the formation of triglycerides and conversion of HDL to LDL in the liver.

The establishment was telling the proles that eating eggs was bad for their health. Now the establishment is backing off on this BS. "Cholesterol causes heart disease" is another establishment meme that has no medical basis. Heart disease is correlated with exposure to NOx (via inhaling car exhaust during commutes). It at least makes physical sense (as opposed to the LDL does it theory) since dissolved NOx consists of a family of free radicals in the blood stream. NOx is also to be found in processed meats as nitrate and nitrite salts. Attributing heart disease to LDL is basically blaming the victim. Once again, this all hearkens back to the good old days of medicine when blood letting was considered a treatment for disease. You have bad blood, or you have LDL. Dealing with the actual causes of the disease is just too complicated.

Another factor is microbes. This factor is still below the radar for awareness but one day it will become acknowledged like in the case of ulcers, chronic lower back pain (around 40% of this conditions is associated with acne bacteria setting up shop in spinal column disks) and some cases of cancer. Heart disease plaques start to form in the interior of the arterial wall and not on the surface. This is an indication that something more than simple inflammation is at work. One of the most potent anti-heart disease treatments that I know form personal family experience has all the characteristics of plant derived anti-biotic complex (i.e. Strauss' Heart Drops). You can laugh all you want at my "tin foil" but my father was told to get a pacemaker but manged to cure himself of heart disease associated heart palpitations with this medicine. There is no such thing as spontaneous remission with heart disease.

http://life.nationalpost.com/2013/04/30 ... t-disease/

The above is not the only bacterial linkage. It is not an accident that heart disease manifests with age. The immune system degrades with age as well.
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Re: Cholesterol is good for you

Unread postby Pops » Mon 16 Dec 2013, 20:57:05

Subjectivist wrote:Maybe you will listen to a medical expert seems how my explanation was unclear to you.
http://www.docsopinion.com/2013/10/20/l ... made-easy/

LDL is far to broad of a description Pops, honest I am not making this up.

Explain to me again where your description and mine differs?

I see only one difference between your description and mine is that "small particle LDL" is a somewhat better predictor than the "regular" LDL according to the paper referenced by the doc in your link (thanks for that). Low LDL-P predicted a lower CAD event slightly better than LDL-C, 59:1,000 vs 81 & 74:1,000. The paper concluded:
In a large community-based sample, LDL-P was a more sensitive indicator of low CVD risk than either LDL-C or non-HDL-C, suggesting a potential clinical role for LDL-P as a goal of LDL management.


Did it say that cholesterol was not related to CAD or that LDL-C is a meaningless test?

Quite the contrary.

So, regarding the "100% incorrect" barb you threw at me earlier I'd say, based on your links and the one study, LDL-C is in fact a good predictor of CAD while LDL-P is perhaps 2% better.

I'd say that makes you at least 98% incorrect.
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Re: Cholesterol is good for you

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 16 Dec 2013, 22:01:23

Ok, inflammation is bad. I get that. Got plenty of it.

How do I get rid of it?

To be more precise....
Weird kinda flu like aches in my mussels
Gout
Arthritis
Then there are these weird points of inflammation in my feet, toes, and ankles that sorta move around and can even cross from one foot to the other, in the course of a day! I don't write em, I read em!

The only correlations I have are...
Fasting really helps, 60 to 80% improvement in a day.
Seems related to MSG, about 6 hours latter I get real bad pains.
But must be something else in the food also.

Drs = worthless
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Re: Cholesterol is good for you

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 16 Dec 2013, 22:36:05

Newfie wrote:Ok, inflammation is bad. I get that. Got plenty of it.

How do I get rid of it?

To be more precise....
Weird kinda flu like aches in my mussels
Gout
Arthritis
Then there are these weird points of inflammation in my feet, toes, and ankles that sorta move around and can even cross from one foot to the other, in the course of a day! I don't write em, I read em!

The only correlations I have are...
Fasting really helps, 60 to 80% improvement in a day.
Seems related to MSG, about 6 hours latter I get real bad pains.
But must be something else in the food also.

Drs = worthless


I recently did the wheat elimination trial, avoided all wheat for 30 days, then had a big all wheat breakfast. The next day I had so much inflammation I could hardly get out of bed. I suggest you do an elimination trial on all the food you eat with the msg, maybe rice does to you what wheat does to me.
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