[Plantagenet]

The capitalist world economy has adapted to high oil prices quite well so far. Higher oil prices will likely lead to further economic problems and then the capitalist system will respond by making further shifts to solar wind NG coal and other alternative energy sources

AD's dystopian vision of global collapse followed by the rise of a Stalinesque socialist economic system is unlikely to be realized

[dohboi]

I actually think that TPTB will try to keep some semblance of the current structure in place for as long as they can--it's been very, very good for them, after all. But more and more people will be thrown under the bus in the mean time. Already many folks who wouldn't have given it a thought are coming to the conclusion that capitalism really isn't working for them.

But with the militarization of police forces, the fusion between corporate and state security, and the panopticon society that post-Patriot-Act society has become, it will be harder and harder for the disenfranchised to make any changes in their favor, even as there are more and more of them.

But we are living in a world of ever diminishing returns and ever increasing consequences.

Tainter in the above-linked piece focuses on the Roman Empire. After they obtained the one-time gains from expanding their empire (growth through taking other people's stored wealth), they had then to make do with maintaining and increasingly complex empire with only the energy/wealth produced by the sun that fell on their lands. Eventually this lead to the need for such high taxes that peasants gave up and went to work on rich people's villas (rich people who, then as now, had manipulated the system so that they didn't have to pay the taxes). Eventually, the whole thing crumbled, as it inevitably was going to do, even without the added push from the Goths and Vandals...

Ours, besides being a geographic empire seizing other peoples territories and (more often) the wealth from those territories, is even more an empire of time. We have taken over the wealth of future generations in the form of everything that we have mined--but most especially ffs--and turned them into toxins that we are dumping on those same future generations. Unfortunately for us, and even more for the younger folks, the 'future' generations that we have been abusing are now here. GW with all its horrors is has arrived at the door and we have ffs of ever diminishing EROEI to try to deal with these growing catastrophes (not to mention all the non-gw-related disasters).

We can (but we won't) choose to drastically reduce our complexity and energy use, in the ever-slimmer hope that there is something worth preserving that may be left on the other side for humans and other life forms to enjoy.

But it seems ever more obvious that instead we will continue to push the accelerator ever harder, extracting all the ever-dirtier ff's we can get, even as we spout ever loftier goals of 'sustainability' and 'alternative energy.'

At this point, even a total global socialist revolution would be too late to do much to avert these worse consequences.

But it's still worth a try !

[Plantagenet]

Already many folks who wouldn't have given it a thought are coming to the conclusion that capitalism really isn't working for them.

But with the militarization of police forces, the fusion between corporate and state security, and the panopticon society that post-Patriot-Act society has become, it will be harder and harder for the disenfranchised to make any changes in their favor, even as there are more and more of them.

Speaking of the Roman Empire, don't forget the bread and circuses. Capitalism may not be working for many people, but it can still deliver foodstamps, obamaphones, disability checks, Ocare and medicare, social security checks, etc., and an unending spew of TV, Super Bowls, legal marijuana, pizza, American Idols, Movies, Gossip Mags, Sports talk radio and other inanities.

People might be losing ground economically, but what do they care as long as they get their legal marijuana, disability check and the Super Bowl!!!!

[Timo]

Already many folks who wouldn't have given it a thought are coming to the conclusion that capitalism really isn't working for them.

But with the militarization of police forces, the fusion between corporate and state security, and the panopticon society that post-Patriot-Act society has become, it will be harder and harder for the disenfranchised to make any changes in their favor, even as there are more and more of them.

Speaking of the Roman Empire, don't forget the bread and circuses. Capitalism may not be working for many people, but it can still deliver foodstamps, obamaphones, disability checks, Ocare and medicare, social security checks, etc., and an unending spew of TV, Super Bowls, legal marijuana, pizza, American Idols, Movies, Gossip Mags, Sports talk radio and other inanities.

People might be losing ground economically, but what do they care as long as they get their legal marijuana, disability check and the Super Bowl!!!!

That's the Corporatocracy of America. Americans aren't even considered to be citizens of this country without first proving your innocence (if trying to vote). To corporations, Wall Street and the global banking system, we're nothing more than consumers to buy their stuff, and replaceable parts to sell it. Making it is left to the Chinese. And i have thought about the recent trend in legalizing marijuana, and have come to the possible conclusion that this is meant to pacify the rebellion, if and when it comes. Some times are tougher with no pot than times with no money. Given the choice, money comes in second place. This will result in more income inequality. People will be more relaxed and will work and earn less, and they'll be less likely to complain about it because Mary Jane makes everything fine.

Hey, Koch is already legal! A good part of this country is high on Koch!

[americandream]

And i have thought about the recent trend in legalizing marijuana, and have come to the possible conclusion that this is meant to pacify the rebellion, if and when it comes.

Brilliant!!

I don't actually think that some particular person or group connected with the elite sit down and consciously plot these things out. But as a critical mass of a particular interest group, I think these policies naturally emanate from their midst. For example, no one back in the day decided that we needed religion to placate us. The rules just naturally evolved as a fit for the then system of fixed wealth. The divine rights of kings and religious rules were a necessary product of that time. Likewise, placating the natives with real opiates as opposed to religion is the natural trend in our more secular age. Of course, natives who consider themselves left wing see this as some horrible rehash of cruel Stalinist tendencies to imprison and deprive of freedom. The sad fact of the matter though is that a new tradition of comatose obedience is being fromented, one that could take us to the end of this game.

[americandream]

The capitalist world economy has adapted to high oil prices quite well so far. Higher oil prices will likely lead to further economic problems and then the capitalist system will respond by making further shifts to solar wind NG coal and other alternative energy sources

AD's dystopian vision of global collapse followed by the rise of a Stalinesque socialist economic system is unlikely to be realized

Possibly.

One thing is for certain though, if you fellows don't pull up your socks, you are toast, literally.

[Plantagenet]

And i have thought about the recent trend in legalizing marijuana, and have come to the possible conclusion that this is meant to pacify the rebellion, if and when it comes.

I don't actually think that some particular person or group connected with the elite sit down and consciously plot these things out.

Don't be so naive.

Did you miss it when President Obama recently sat down and said marijuana is OK with him?

The Ds who run California, Oregon, New York, Washington Colorado etc. are all pushing for legalisation of marijuana for "medical" and/or recreational use, and now the president has made it clear thats OK with him too. Obviously there are people and groups connected to the elite who are pushing it.


President Obama says marijuana is OK with him

[dohboi]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure this group is part of a vast left-wing conspiracy:

https://www.facebook.com/NorthDakotaMoms4MJ

Come on, guys. Get a grip. These laws are just stupid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOqrJong0Pk

[americandream]

@ Plant

A policy supproted by many liberals and libertarians.

Bourgeoise capitalism is moving to the next phase. The emergence of further consolidation of wealth in fewer people, the emergence of a courtier class as well as the establishment of rules for the new labouring classes. Amongst these are the mantras of free choice and relative norms. In that context, a generally liberalising global capitalism as regards opiates coupled with the new "flexible" social norms ensures that wealth disparities grow unchallenged. Oh, of course, theres also identity politics.

The underlying thrust is for wealth to quietly slip into the hands of fewer with an assocuiated courtier class consolidating the crumbs whilst labour surplus is extrcted from the drones, reasonably risk free. And the planet continues to take a pounding despite all the soothing "green" initiatives post Rio.

[americandream]

DB, the laws are stupid, agreed. But these substances in this context will bear nasty fruit. Its all about context. First economic freedom, then full social liberty.

In fact, I am not against full social freedom, but in context. Social freedom in economic shackles comes with a price. Long term servitude.

[Plantagenet]

These laws are just stupid.

Marijuana causes brain damage. Check out the medical and scientific research.

I can see why O and the Ds would support legalisation----more taxes and votes from dope users----but look at it rationally: Outlawing a drug that causes brain damage is just common sense.

marijuana causes brain damage

[americandream]

These laws are just stupid.

Marijuana causes brain damage.

Outlawing a drug that causes brain damage is just common sense.

marijuana causes brain damage

Lesson. You belong to a class that does not have a stake in the use of this opiate. It is the start of widespear legalised opiate usage. Religion does not work anymore.

[dohboi]

Didn't someone say that marijuana was the opiate of the atheists??

Plant, oxygen causes cancer--I think we'd better outlaw that, too!

[Timo]

So, i'm getting the sense that marijuana will get us beyond growth and beyond capitalism. Am i reading the pot leaves correct?

[Plantagenet]

oxygen causes cancer--I think we'd better outlaw that

I'm not familiar with the body of research showing that oxygen causes cancer. Are you making that up?

However, there are numerous studies showing that marijuana causes various kinds of brain damage, something that most people agree is bad.

[Plantagenet]

marijuana was the opiate of the atheists??

Thats true enough. And religion still has its true believers as well. Look at all the people still keeping to their faith in various holy books----Jews have the Torah, Christians have the Bible, Muslims have the Koran, and Marxists have Das Kapital.

[americandream]

The ideal is a relaxed socialised social economy in which leisure is a function of living, more along Cuban lines where marijuana is enjoyed alongside economic security. Unlike neighbouring Jamaica where criminalisation as well as lack of economic opportunity has bred a massive underclass.

[americandream]

Das Kapital is based on an understanding of human systems, religion on the hope that you have a cloud to sit on or virgins to impregnate post demise.

[Plantagenet]

Das Kapital is based on an understanding of human systems, religion on the hope that you have a cloud to sit on or virgins to impregnate post demise.

Muhammad delivered the Torah, John SMith delivered the book of Mormon, and Karl Marx delivered the Capital.

These books were all written by fallible human beings who inevitably got things wrong.

Whats the difference?

[dohboi]

"I'm not familiar with the body of research showing that oxygen causes cancer."

Heard it first from a chemistry professor. It's why antioxidants are recommended in your diet if you want to avoid cancer. IIRC, it's specifically free radicals of oxygen that are the culprit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioxidant

So maybe I should have recommended outlawing free radicals, but that would have put me in the hoosegow long ago.

I do believe that when algae first started filling the atmosphere with oxygen, there was a very large mass extinction, since much of the life then had not evolved to handle the corrosive effects of oxidation. That mass extinction doesn't get much press since it happened so long ago and there were no complex critters around. But it was a doozy. (But others more knowledgeable about such things should jump in if I'm way--or even a little--off here...I've got no time for even a quick search at this point.)

We're kinda doing the same thing to ourselves and pretty much everything, but this time with CO2 and CH4.