[radon1]

So instead of being a puppet to Bilderbergs, Putin is the pawn. Dumbass.

He is more a bishop, to Putin+ minus Putin. Definitely not the King. But he is not a dumbass either.

[dissident]

Ah, yes, the sin of not being an American sycophant. Here is the reason that Russians and basically anyone with a clue is becoming increasingly anti-American:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... 3wBXkR0rJ0

WARNING GRAPHIC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05m9gLftj5M

This is state terror against civilians. And Washington an the rest of the bloody NATO hypocrites fully support the regime in Kiev in its so-called "anti-terror" operation.

[dissident]

Here is a sample of the "free western media" coverage of this atrocity:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/ ... 6P20140602

Interfax-Ukraine news agency quoted a health official as saying that an explosion in the building had killed two people. Ukrainian authorities denied they had conducted an air strike.

Lying turd western "journalists" can't even be bothered to do any actual journalism and just run to the official statement on any given incident from the Kiev regime. It is all he said, she said. BTW, it is at least 7 dead and 15 wounded (mutilated by the fragment warheads of the missiles fired by the regime jet fighter). The woman in the second video apparently succumbed to her horrific injuries.

[radon1]

Strumm.. France wouldn't annex Quebec..

Possibly, France would not welcome Quebec's entry.

because France is a democracy.

But the explanation is rubbish. European countries have supposedly been "democracies" for centuries, but it did not stop them annexing this and that and building colonial empires. And look at the US own history.

[Sixstrings]

Now there's a story in USA Today about anti-Americanism growing in Russia.

I started this thread with a voice of america article. There are new developments since then, as reported in USA Today:

Anti-American sentiment growing in Russia

Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a controversial law this week making it a criminal offense to fail to report dual citizenship. It's a bid to keep track of potential foreign agents. Russian citizens who also hold a U.S. passport or one from another country have 60 days to notify the Federal Migration Service of their status or face a fine of nearly $6,000.

A survey published Thursday by the Levada Center, an independent pollster, shows that 71% of Russians view the United States "badly" or "very badly" — the highest in more than 20 years, with more positive attitudes registered during the Soviet era.

"My husband ... recently had the experience of running into a man in a store who didn't like that our son was communicating in English," said Natalia Antonova, a Ukrainian-American journalist and playwright who lives in Moscow.

The man, Antonova said, told them that their son "shouldn't be" bilingual. " 'Just teach him Russian. It's for the best.' The man wasn't aggressive or anything. He just explained that he's a patriot, and it's important to encourage patriotic feelings."

Russia has highlighted the political motive of the new law, pointing to potential "enemies."

"This is part of a policy in which (Russia) is trying to reduce foreign influence on its citizens," said sociologist Olga Kryshtanovskaya, head of Kryshtanovskaya Laboratory.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/06/06/putin-foreigners-russia/10003575/

Summary:

a) Putin has decreed that all Russians holding dual citizenship have 60 days to report it to the Federal Migration Service, or be fined $6,000.

What isn't clear is what happens after that -- presumably, the Migration Ministry will be "watching" these dual-citizen Russians?

b) That's an interesting quote there in the article, a "patriotic" Russian man telling a Ukrainian woman her son shouldn't be speaking English, and the mother should just "teach him Russian, it's for the best."

More and more.. Russia is going more xenophobic, and pulling itself away. English isn't about America, it's just the world's language, it's how a Russian can speak to a Norwegian. It is what it is. There's no future in burning English dictionaries.

[americandream]

I suspect Putin is trying to roll back the incursion of Anglo-Saxon social economy (English rooted capitalism.) the man is schooled in Marxist thought being ex-KGB. These are interesting times as it suggests that he is preparing the Russians for a major event, possibly a collapse in said social economy.

[dissident]

While Obama spews crap his Kiev regime pets are randomly shelling Slavyansk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... QyummBK8hk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... ducgBFt9K0

If Americans don't like anti-Americanism they should not support butchers and mass murderers around the world as part of their "realpolitik" games.

[dissident]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... b51j1MK-w4

American tax dollars at work. Clearly random shelling of Slavyiansk residential areas. The Kiev regime has also targeted electricity generation plants and water lines. This nothing more than US sponsored state terror.

[Sixstrings]

If Americans don't like anti-Americanism they should not support butchers and mass murderers around the world as part of their "realpolitik" games.

Well, it's not affecting Americans, this is law is targeting *Russians* that happen to have a dual citizenship.

Do you know what this is about? What happens after dual citizen Russians report their status to the government? It's just like an open question left hanging there, okay so do folks schlep on down to the ministry like an idiot and report their status just to get a Western star of david to wear?

And everyone has to know you're a dual citizen American or Brit, etc.? What comes next, harassment? Why a registry?

Will the Russian federal government start scrutinizing these Russians? Dual citizen or not, they are Russian first and foremost and they're the ones getting the brunt of this "anti-Americanism." Putin is intimidating *Russians* here, who happen to have an American mother / somehow have a Western dual citizenship.

So what is next.

Will Putin demand the dual citizenships get renounced? Is this really more like intimidation, just to make people scared and renounce their other citizenship so they don't have to report it to the government?

I have no idea of knowing what the next step is, after making a registry of dual citizens, perhaps you or Radon could clarify.

[Sixstrings]

I suspect Putin is trying to roll back the incursion of Anglo-Saxon social economy (English rooted capitalism.) the man is schooled in Marxist thought being ex-KGB. These are interesting times as it suggests that he is preparing the Russians for a major event, possibly a collapse in said social economy.

It just sounds like nationalism, to me.

It's not a whole lot different than announcing that all jews must report their status to the Migration Ministry, so the government can make a list of them, you know?

It's about the same thing. In Russia, the West is the "enemy" and so they've got this "enemy within" with dual citizen Russians, and now they all have to make a decision to renounce or report themselves to the government.

I'll go ahead and answer my own question posed to dissident -- it *IS* nationalism, this "all you people of a certain type need to come down to the Ministry so we know who you are" thing.

But, Putin is also trying to yank the Russian people away from the West, and we'll see how successful that is. He'd like the rich to bring home more of their money. That's got to be a hard task there, Russians are very much invested in London and in the US, how do you just force capital to come back. And that's more economic disruption, it's insular, it's regressive.

If it's oligarchs targeted by this law, then who cares none of us like the 1%, but it sounds like a federal law and that's going to net working class people too that may have dual citizenship for some other reason besides being a rich yachting oligarch.

Aren't Russians curious, as to why government wants to make this "list?" If my gov announced everyone of a certain type needs to come down and put their name on a list, I'd be asking "why." Like, will they get looked into by the FSB just for having an American mother or something? Or, will they get more scrutinized by the Russian tax authorities?

Doesn't sound fair, registries are always fascist, it's like how they come for the guns first and want to make a "registry." Pffft.

[Strummer]

Well, it's not as bad as that other oppressive dictatorship, Norway. Do you know what happens when a citizen of Norway acquires citizenship of another country?

A Norwegian citizen who voluntarily acquires another citizenship automatically loses Norwegian citizenship without notification.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_nationality_law

Those norwegians! I think it's about time for some US sanctions against them.

[Sixstrings]

It's really just Russians that are getting harassed by all this anti-American stuff.

For example, their parliament wanted to pass a law *banning* mastercard and visa. Then they figured out you can't really do that, you can't just take 30 million Russians' credit and debit cards away (for crying out loud).

I don't know guys, who is oppressing Russians -- doesn't seem like it's America, but rather their own government. It's their parliament that keeps passing one law after another, targeting some particular group of Russians, now they're onto Russians that have Western ties.

[Sixstrings]

A Norwegian citizen who voluntarily acquires another citizenship automatically loses Norwegian citizenship without notification.

Those norwegians! I think it's about time for some US sanctions against them.

Well then, we know what Norway does with the info, but let's stay on topic -- has the Russian federal government told Russians what they will do with the list, after Russians schlep down to the Migration Ministry and put their name on the list?

[radon1]

I suspect Putin is trying to roll back the incursion of Anglo-Saxon social economy (English rooted capitalism.) the man is schooled in Marxist thought being ex-KGB. These are interesting times as it suggests that he is preparing the Russians for a major event, possibly a collapse in said social economy.

It just sounds like nationalism, to me.

[Sixstrings]

[smilie=eusa_wall.gif]

Ok, fine, would you like me to call it something else? Other than nationalism?

Ok, I'll use a new word for this hard right stuff in Russia. I'm gonna call it the Russian Tea Party. Is that better?


(that actually looks pretty good)

It's all the darn same, hard right jingo etc., the french have their French National Front party, every country has a hard right, whatever you want to call it.

But you know what I'm talking about Radon, with all these crackdown laws that are all the same whether it's gays or now it's Russians with Western passports, and there have been so many of these, right on down to laws banning foreign video games that don't depict Russian world war II history the way the government wants. So you know what I'm talking about.

This stupid law is just another stupid law that the duma has passed and it's been one right after another. I'm not being a jerk with this, if it makes you feel better, I admit that if our extreme Tea Party ever had majority they'd be passing stupid things too. What a mirror mirror universe faceoff that would be, a Michelle Bachman / Ted Cruz America vs. Putin's Russia.

Back on topic, here's the Moscow Times' take on the new law, with a lot of detail. Perhaps, for once, we could all stick to a topic at hand and just objectively discuss this new law?

Russia Targets 'Traitorous' Dual Citizenship Holders

Russia is about to criminalize failure to declare dual citizenship in what lawmakers say is a bid to crack down on the "fifth column" — and the fifth column is duly scared.

Exposing holders of multiple passports may be the first step to banning dual citizenship, said a holder of U.S. and Russian passports who currently lives on the U.S.' east coast.

"I am just afraid I will not be able to see my friends and family," she said. She asked for her name to be withheld from print for fear of getting into trouble with the Russian bureaucracy.

A bill fast-tracked by the State Duma makes not reporting another citizenship to migration authorities punishable with a fine of up to 200,000 rubles ($5,800) or up to 400 hours of community service.

The bill's authors say it is a preemptive measure against possible subversive action by dissidents in the face of Moscow's deteriorating relations with the West.

But the legislation is borderline unconstitutional and discriminative, targeting thousands of politically uninvolved citizens in a fit of state paranoia straight out of Soviet textbooks, the bill's critics say.

"This is just the state meddling in personal affairs through laws widely seen as repressive," said Svetlana Gannushkina of rights group Memorial.

Presidential Approval
Holders of multiple citizenships found themselves in the legislative crosshairs in March, when the idea of tracking them was endorsed by President Vladimir Putin.

"We have the right and a need to know who is living in Russia and what they do here," Putin said at the time.

The bill on the issue was rapidly penned by Andrei Lugovoi of pro-Kremlin nationalists LDPR, a former Kremlin guard who earned notoriety in the West when he was fingered as the main suspect in the polonium poisoning of KGB defector and Putin critic Alexander Litvinenko in London in 2006. Lugovoi denied involvement.

The bill breezed through both houses of parliament within six weeks and is pending a presidential signature.

Constitution and Discrimination
Lugovoi's bill is replete with questionable legal nuances, said Alexander Zakharov, a partner at law firm Paragon Advice Group.

Holding a foreign passport is legal in Russia, according to the constitution, but the draft law implies that it can be an offense, Zakharov said by telephone Wednesday.

Article 6 of the Constitution, which covers dual citizenship, contains no bans and says only that Russians with foreign passports are viewed domestically as Russian citizens.

Lugovoi's bill also discriminates against certain groups of citizens, said opposition lawmaker Dmitry Gudkov, who opposed the legislation.

Under the law, only people who live in Russia have to declare their second passport to the authorities, while passport holders permanently residing outside the country are exempt from it.

Foreign Agents Among Us
The bill's authors do not deny that the law is politically motivated.

Lugovoi did not return a request for comment from The Moscow Times, but cites on his website the West-endorsed fifth column among the liberals as the law's target.

"Russia's enemies are constantly looking for weak spots in our ranks," Lugovoi said in a post in April. He said the government's critics are seeking to disrupt normal life in Russia, possibly supported or guided by the West.

The Kremlin has mounted a crackdown on political opponents following mass opposition protests from 2011 to 2013 targeting opposition leaders and independent NGOs.

Special attention has been given to foreign affiliation: NGOs involved in vaguely defined "political activity" that receive foreign funding have been forcibly labeled "foreign agents," a derogative tag from Soviet times.

Isolationism is also on the rise: Officials and legislators have been banned from owing assets — though not real estate — outside the country, and foreign travel has been prohibited for some 4 million civil servants out of a total population of 143 million.

"The trend today is toward repressive legislation," said Gannushkina of Memorial, a prominent NGO that was also ruled a "foreign agent."

Disloyal by Default?
The problem is that there is no proof that the majority of foreign passport holders are in any way disloyal to Russia, Gannushkina said.

"These people are suspected of disloyalty by default," she said.

Even Lugovoi conceded dual citizenship holders are more likely to be businessmen than political activists, though he still insisted obtaining a foreign passport was a "betrayal of national interests."

There may be rather a lot of traitors around, however. Russia only has dual citizenship agreements, under which both countries recognize both a person's nationalities, with two countries — Turkmenistan and Tajikistan — but Russians appear to hold passports across the United Nations membership roster. No comprehensive statistics exist, but in a telling example, Finnish authorities reported 21,000 Russian-Finnish passport holders as of 2013. When there is no dual citizenship agreement in place, each country regards the holder solely as a citizen of their state.

The Federal Migration Service said 73,000 Russians received foreign passports in 2013-2014, though it gave no breakdown by country. The Russophone diaspora is estimated at up to 30 million worldwide, including more than 3 million in the U.S. and up to 2 million in Germany, though it is unclear how many have Russian citizenship.

Russia's current rules on the issue are softer than in many countries, including Japan, India, the Netherlands and Ukraine, where dual citizenship is banned under all or most circumstances. Having more than one passport is, however, not forbidden in the U.S, Britain, Australia, Canada and France, among others.

Armies of Traitors
The main concern expressed over the new law is that the authorities' ultimate goal is to ban dual citizenship, not just expose it.

That idea was already floated by Lugovoi, though Gudkov said it was unlikely because it would affect many in the Russian ruling elite, where sending wives and children abroad to places like Nice, France or Miami, U.S. is common practice.

But Gannushkina said it was an inevitable step, given "repressive" state policies.

Both Gannushkina and Gudkov said even the current legislation could prompt an exodus of holders of multiple passports.

That sentiment was shared by people with dual citizenship interviewed by The Moscow Times, none of whom professed to political activity.

"I still love Russia. Sh*t happens here, but there is also a lot of amazing things about the country," said Alina, a British-Russian citizen working for a foreign company in Moscow who asked that her name be changed to protect her identity.

But she said she would prefer to avoid declaring her second passport and would not rule out moving abroad in order to do so.

The situation reminded her of political pressure along Soviet templates, something she wants nothing to do with, Alina said.

"At some point you just realize your country is not quite yours anymore," she said.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russia-targets-traitorous-dual-citizenship-holders/501163.html

Summary:

* Sounds like the law is headed in an unconstitutional direction, since dual citizenship is in Russia's constitution. Of course, that constitution has been changed before.. which is how Putin can keep running forever

* According to the article, the bill was written by the main suspect in the London polonium poisoning. Well ain't that lovely.

* I don't think I'm wrong here, in sensing the gist of this is paranoia in Russia, worry about "traitors within" and "subversive action" by "dissidents," and basically they want to make a list and know who has dual citizenship so they can watch them. That's pretty much what Putin said:

"We have the right and a need to know who is living in Russia and what they do here," Putin said

[Sixstrings]

Back to the (Soviet) Future

Those of us who correctly predicted years ago that the rise of proud KGB spy Vladimir Putin meant a return in Russia to Soviet-era practices of repression and aggression now find ourselves in a strange position. The overwhelming evidence of our accuracy is satisfying and utterly horrifying at the same time. We wish we had been mistaken.

Even a cursory glance at the news coming out of Russia these days shows a nation hurtling backwards at breakneck speed.

Heavy pressure is being put on Russians not to leave the country, just as in Soviet times, and draconian, neo-Soviet legal restrictions are in the offing. Parents who dare to seek life-saving medical treatment abroad for their desperately ill children are castigated, and those who dare to maintain dual citizenship are branded criminals or even traitors.

Putin has unleashed a “troll army” to deluge free Western media with neo-Soviet propaganda, and he has co-opted the Russian Orthodox Church to launch a heinous campaign of political racism that harkens back to the worst days of the paranoid Josef Stalin.

...

The seething, bloodthirsty hatred of the USA and her values is just a palpable in Russia today as it ever was in the USSR.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/06/back_to_the_soviet_future.html

Hm, okay, "American Thinker" is a bit over the top there with "seething bloodthirsty hatred" of the USA.

But I have read about this "Putin army of trolls" in multiple places. Is that even reported on, in Russia? Who is the internet "army of bloggers" and how is that all organized? I've never seen it explained. I have read that there was a massive cyberattack on Estonia a number of years ago, but that was organic and just Russians messing with Estonians all on their own, not from the government.

Ok I'm way off topic. Another interesting article in American Thinker though, apparently foreign investment in Russia was down a full 50% in 2013, and it's the least attractive investment economy in east europe:

The entire Caucasus area is roiling with separatist violence, and Russia’s isolated Kaliningrad region, surrounded by countries that Putin has now terrified and alienated, is going to start feeling intense pain that Putin can do little to soothe.

Dependence on China, a brutal partner that only a madman would prefer to Europe, isn’t as low as Putin is prepared to drag Russia down. He’s openly courting both pariah states like North Korea and fascist extremists in Europe, making Russia seem like a nuclear-fanged Iran prepared to engage in a wide variety of international terrorist acts in order to lash out at democratic nations that have spurned it.

Last week, the Vienna Institute for Economic Studies revealed that foreign direct investment in Russia will fall this year by a shocking 50% compared to 2013, whose level was already anemic. This will make Russia the least attractive economy in all of Eastern Europe by a wide margin. The VIES opined that Putin’s aggression in Ukraine was the major cause of these catastrophic losses, which would have dire impacts upon economic growth not just in Russia but throughout Eastern Europe, further alienating Russia’s neighbors.

Also last week, international banking giant HSBC disclosed that in May Russia's shrinking service sector reached its fastest rate of decline in five years.

This intense economic pressure has forced the government to spend a ghastly chunk of foreign currency reserves defending its currency and stock market values. Already this year over $40 billion in precious reserves have hemorrhaged out of the Russian treasury, and the bloodletting is only going to get worse in the second half of the year. Between loss of foreign investment and loss of reserves, Russia may take a stunning $200 billion hit before the year is over.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/06/russia_the_noose_tightens.html

[Strummer]

You could also say that Russia is reducing its exposure to the debt-fueled western economy which is heading for another 2008-style crash. Foreign investment is not necessarily always a good thing, especially if that investment is built upon unsustainable debt. Just ask Cyprus or Iceland.

[radon1]

Ok, fine, would you like me to call it something else? Other than nationalism?

Talk about nationalism, no problem. But why did you quote AD? Why not, say, a cooking book? AD wrote about social economy, nothing to do with nationalism.

There is a joke:

A mentally unstable patient takes a test with his psychiatrist. The psychiatrist shows him an abstract picture with random lines and forms in it, and asks "What do you see?". "A naked woman", the patient responds. The psychiatrist shows him another picture of abstract art and asks the same question. "A naked woman" the patient responds once again. The third picture goes, the patient sees and says the same, and then, visibly irritated, turns to the doctor and asks him "Doctor, why are you so sexually obsessed?".

[Sixstrings]

There is a joke:

A mentally unstable patient takes a test with his psychiatrist. The psychiatrist shows him an abstract picture with random lines and forms in it, and asks "What do you see?". "A naked woman", the patient responds. The psychiatrist shows him another picture of abstract art and asks the same question. "A naked woman" the patient responds once again. The third picture goes, the patient sees and says the same, and then, visibly irritated, turns to the doctor and asks him "Doctor, why are you so sexually obsessed?".

And I'll tell you something my very wise, backhills Appalachia hollar grandmother used to say:

"Sometimes being paranoid is just having all the facts."

I love idioms, and Russians and Ukrainians seem to love them too, they use them so much. There's a quote from Freud about the point you're trying to make, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar," and I use that one all the time.

In this case, the answer is no, the cigar is not just a cigar and this new law is not like the Norwegians that probably banned dual citizenship because they have so many socialized bennies for their citizens.

We all know that Putin and whatever that hard right party in Russia is called, want to pull Russians away from the West. They wanted to ban frickin' mastercard and visa, but 30 million Russians have credit and debit cards in their wallet, you can't just take those away unless Putin wants Russians trapped like Cubans are. Where you can't even leave the island. And if the government ever let you, you ain't got no credit cards or anything anyway that everyone else in the world gets to have.

Putin is *trying* to force Russia's rich bring all their money back home, and stop vacationing abroad, stop mixing abroad, give up their Miami condos and flats in London. That policy will surely be a failure, the rich are powerful so I don't see how they're going to go along with that.

**And this extreme isolationism is bad economics anyway, and Putin is going to tank the Russian economy will it.**

Radon, I'm not Russian so what do I care, this is all your business not mine. I would just implore you to be wary of nationalism, when it gets to the point where one's own government is suppressing its people supposedly in response to that "threat" from the "other" "out there."

I'd be watching out for that with my government, too. Like how our security state went too far and our rights encroached on with the war on terror.

If the actions of your own government get to be more oppressive than the supposed threat from outside, then that's a wakeup call.

(to be fair and balanced, I've learned enough about Russia from all this news deep dive I've been doing since Ukraine, to know that what Putin and the Russian nationalists do isn't quite as bad as it looks -- it just LOOKS really bad to people who are aware of history and nationalism and Nazi Germany and they see all these things happening and it freaks them out.

Putin isn't really a Hitler, he seems like he's actually stuck and torn between the Soviet KGB era and the modern world. He's very smart. He's not evil, like a Hitler, he's too smart for that -- but yet he's got these fascist tendencies.

So, no, I don't think he'd ever round up any groups into camps or really invade Europe, and I don't sense he's any kind of racial or ethnic supremacist. It's not as bad as it looks, but a person really has to dive deep and learn a lot before you see that.

So I'm being fair. OTOH, from what I've been reading lately, I am starting to think Putin has dragged his nation into an epic economic bungle.

He did not fully understand globalist finance and economics, and he's got all the power, so this is what happens when one person has so much power yet they're not an expert on everything.

Some facts:

1) In 2013 alone, foreign investment in Russia dropped 50%. That's just '13, numbers will be worse for '14 since Ukraine.

2) Russia has been having to spend out all of its hard currency reserves to pump their stock market back up, and also to shore up the ruble, because with Putin's actions private capital flew out of that stock market, and out of the ruble.

3) Putin is starting trade wars. Actually giving up export business. That's not wise.

4) All of this is in trade for a gas deal with China -- and all China is offering is to "prepay" for some discounted gas. That means even after the pipelines are built, you've just got to pump free gas to China until their gas card is used up.

We'll see what happens, I hope for the best for Russians, but honestly economics is extremely complicated and sensitive in our globalist world and I think Putin made an epic blunder here and the Russian economy is going to tank over it.

Unless he cools it right now, which apparently he has done, but there is already damage done. If he keeps up the isolationism, that's just further into recession.

So a question for a year from now, and three years from now, will be what will Russians do if the economy is in shambles. Will they blame Putin, would they vote for someone else, or will they blame the West for it all and maybe be led into a really hard right fascist nationalist direction?)

[Sixstrings]

Having said all the above, my remaining concern at the moment is about North Korea.

It's really going to be our own darn fault if our gov has not warned the Russian gov in advance, and Russians sell them rocket engines or any tech that's going to give them ICBM capability.

I'm a bit worried about that. I think Putin may miscalculate about how weak and clueless we are.

If Russia helps NK get ICBMs, then I will be hoping to see a very strong response from the US gov. That's a big red line that can't be crossed, that will have to mean cold war. It's not a joke, the North Koreans are *insane*, I'm talking Jim Jones koolaid cult insane, we can't let them have the ability to reach California and if Russia makes that happen then that's a really bad sucker punch.

I'm not jumping the gun on this, it remains to be seen what Russia does with NK, I just hope they don't truly endanger the US and California and the whole west coast and kim jong un has working ICBMs.

If they do that, it's not fair and not right, the US didn't give Kiev any ICBMs.