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Our economic growth system is reaching limits in a strange way

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Economic growth never seems to be as high as those making forecasts would like it to be. This is a record of recent forecasts by the International Monetary Fund:

Figure 1. World GDP Forecasts by the International Monetary Fund.

Figure 1. World GDP Forecasts by the International Monetary Fund.

Figure 2 shows world economic growth on  a different basis–a basis that appears to me to be very close to total world GDP, as measured in US dollars, without adjustment for inflation. On this  basis, world GDP (or Gross Planetary Product as the author calls it) does very poorly in 2015, nearly as bad as in 2009.

Figure 2. Gross Planet Product at current prices (trillions of dollars) by Peter A. G. van Bergeijk in Voxeu.

Figure 2. Gross Planet Product at current prices (trillions of dollars) by Peter A. G. van Bergeijk in Voxeu, based on IMF World Economic Outlook Database, October 2015.

The poor 2015 performance in Figure 2 reflects a combination of falling inflation rates, as a result of falling commodity prices, and a rising relativity of the US dollar to other currencies.

Clearly something is wrong, but virtually no one has figured out the problem.

The World Energy System Is Reaching Limits in a Strange Double Way

We are experiencing a world economy that seems to be reaching limits, but the symptoms are not what peak oil groups warned about. Instead of high prices and lack of supply, we are facing indirect problems brought on by our high consumption of energy products. In my view, we have a double pump problem.

Figure 3. Double gasoline pump from Torrence Collection of Auto Memorabilia.

Figure 3. Double gasoline pump from Torrence Collection of Auto Memorabilia.

We don’t just extract fossil fuels. Instead, whether we intend to or not, we get a lot of other things as well: rising debt, rising pollution, and a more complex economy.

The system acts as if whenever one pump dispenses the energy products we want, another pump disperses other products we don’t want. Let’s look at three of the big unwanted “co-products.”

1. Rising debt is an issue because fossil fuels give us things that would never have been possible, in the absence of fossil fuels. For example, thanks to fossil fuels, farmers can have such things as metal plows instead of wooden ones and barbed wire to separate their property from the property of others. Fossil fuels provide many more advanced capabilities as well, including tractors, fertilizer, pesticides, GPS systems to guide tractors, trucks to take food to market, modern roads, and refrigeration.

The benefits of fossil fuels are immense, but can only be experienced once fossil fuels are in use. Because of this, we have adapted our debt system to be a much greater part of the economy than it ever needed to be, prior to the use of fossil fuels. As the cost of fossil fuel extraction rises, ever more debt is required to place these fossil fuels in use. The Bank for International Settlements tells us that worldwide, between 2006 and 2014, the amount of oil and gas company bonds outstanding increased by an average of 15% per year, while syndicated bank loans to oil and gas companies increased by an average of 13% per year. Taken together, about $3 trillion of these types of loans to the oil and gas companies were outstanding at the end of 2014.

As the cost of fossil fuels rises, the cost of everything made using fossil fuels tends to rise as well. Cars, trucks, and homes become more expensive to build, especially if they are intended to be energy efficient. The cost of capital goods purchased by businesses rises as well, since these too are made with fossil fuels. Needless to say, the amount of debt to purchase all of these goods rises as well. Part of the reason for the increased debt is simply because it becomes more difficult for businesses and individuals to purchase needed goods out of cash flow.

As long as fossil fuel prices are rising (not just the cost of extraction), this rising debt doesn’t look like a huge problem. The rising fossil fuel prices push the general inflation rate higher. But once prices stop rising, and in fact start falling, the amount of debt outstanding suddenly seems much more onerous.

2. Rising pollution from fossil fuels is another issue as we use an increasing amount of fossil fuels. If only a tiny amount of fossil fuels is used, pollution tends not to be much of an issue. Air can remain safe for breathing and water can remain safe for drinking. Increasing CO2 pollution is not a significant issue.

Once we start using increasing amounts, pollution becomes a greater issue. Partly this is the case because natural sinks reach their saturation point. Another is the changing nature of technology as we move to more advanced techniques. Techniques such as deep sea drilling, hydraulic fracturing, and arctic drilling have pollution risks that less advanced techniques did not have.

3. A more complex economy is a less obvious co-product of the increasing use of fossil fuels. In a very simple economy, there is little need for big government and big business. If there are businesses, they can be run by a small number of individuals, with little investment in capital goods. A king, together with a handful of appointees, can operate the government if it does not provide much in the way of services such as paved roads, armies, and schools. International trade is not a huge necessity because workers can provide nearly all necessary goods and services with local materials.

The use of increasing amounts of fossil fuels changes the situation materially. Fossil fuels are what allow us to have metals in quantity–without fossil fuels, we need to cut down forests, use the trees to make charcoal, and use the charcoal to make small quantities of metals.

Once fossil fuels are available in quantity, they allow the economy to make modern capital goods, such as machines, oil drilling equipment, hydraulic dump trucks, farming equipment, and airplanes. Businesses need to be much larger to produce and own such equipment. International trade becomes much more important, because a much broader array of materials is needed to make and operate these devices. Education becomes ever more important, as devices become increasingly complex. Governments become larger, to deal with the additional services they now need to provide.

Increasing complexity has a downside. If an increasing share of the output of the economy is funneled into management pay, expenditures for capital goods, and other expenditures associated with an increasingly complex economy (including higher taxes, and more dividend and interest payments), less of the output of the economy is available for “ordinary” laborers–including those without advanced training or supervisory responsibilities.

As a result, pay for these workers is likely to fall relative to the rising cost of living. Some would-be workers may drop out of the labor force, because the benefits of working are too low compared to other costs, such as childcare and transportation costs. Ultimately, the low wages of these workers can be expected to start causing problems for the economic system as a whole, because these workers can no longer afford the output of the system. These workers reduce their purchases of houses and cars, both of which are produced using fossil fuels and other commodities.

Ultimately, the prices of commodities fall below their cost of production. This happens because there are so many of these ordinary laborers, and the lack of good wages for these workers tends to slow the “demand” side of the economic growth loop. This is the problem that we are now experiencing. Figure 4 below shows how the system would work, if increasing complexity were not interfering with economic growth.

Figure 4. How economic growth works, if increased complexity is not interfering.

Figure 4. How economic growth works, if increased complexity is not interfering.

Also see my post, How Economic Growth Fails.

The Two Pumps are Really Energy and Entropy

Unlike the markings on the pump (gasoline and ethanol), the two pumps of our system are energy consumption and entropy. When we think we are getting energy consumption, we really get various forms of entropy as well.

The first pump, rising energy consumption, seems to be what makes the world economy grow.

Figure 4. World GDP in 2010$ compared (from USDA) compared to World Consumption of Energy (from BP Statistical Review of World Energy 2014).

Figure 5. World GDP in 2010$ compared (from USDA) compared to World Consumption of Energy (from BP Statistical Review of World Energy 2014).

This happens because the use of energy products allows businesses to leverage human labor, so that human labor can be more productive. A farmer with a stick as his only implement cannot produce much food, but a farmer with a tractor, gasoline, modern implements, hybrid seeds, irrigation, and access to modern roads can be very productive. This productivity would not be available without fossil fuels. Figure 4, shown earlier, describes how this increased productivity usually gets back into the system.

The second pump in Figure 3 is Entropy Production. Entropy is a measure of the disorder associated with the extraction and consumption of fossil fuels and other energy products. Entropy can be thought of as a loss of information. Once energy products are burned, we have a portion of GDP in the place of the energy products that have been consumed. This is why there is a high correlation between energy consumption and GDP. As energy products are burned, we also have an increasing pile of debt, increasing pollution (that our sinks become less and less able to handle), and increasing wealth disparity.

Figure 6. Chart by economist Emmanuel Saez based on an analysis IRS data, published in Forbes.

Figure 6. Difference in US income growth patterns of the top 10% versus the bottom 90%. Chart by economist Emmanuel Saez based on an analysis IRS data, published in Forbes.

Beyond the three types of entropy I have mentioned, there are other related problems. For example, the current immigration problem is at least partly a problem associated with increased complexity and thus increased wealth disparity. Also, low oil prices are a sign of a loss of “information,” and thus also a sign of growing entropy.

Our Energy/Entropy System Operates on an Energy Flow Basis

I think of two different kinds of accounting systems:

  1. Accounting on a cash flow basis
  2. Accounting on an accrual basis, such as GAAP

With respect to energy, we burn fossil fuels in a given year, and we obtain output of renewable energy devices in a given year. We eat food that has generally been grown in the year we eat it. There is virtually no accrual aspect to the way the system works. This is very different from the accrual-basis financial statements prepared by most large companies that allow credit for investments before the benefit is actually in place.

When it comes to promises such as Social Security benefits, we are, in effect, promising retirees a share of energy production in future years. The promise is only worth something if the system continues to work well–in other words, if the financial system has not collapsed, pollution is not too great a problem, and marginalized workers are not revolting.

Governments can print money, but they can’t print resources. It is the resources, particularly energy resources, that we need to run the economy. In fact, we need per capita resources to be at least flat, or perhaps increasing.

Figure 7. World energy consumption per capita, based on BP Statistical Review of World Energy 2105 data. Year 2015 estimate and notes by G. Tverberg.

Figure 7. World energy consumption per capita, based on BP Statistical Review of World Energy 2105 data. Year 2015 estimate and notes by G. Tverberg.

Printing money is an attempt to get a larger share of the world’s resources for the population of a given country. Printing money usually doesn’t work very well, because if a country prints a lot of money, the currency of that country is likely to fall relative to currencies of other countries.

What Causes the System to Fail? Too Little Energy, or Too Much Entropy?

In an interconnected system, it is sometimes hard to understand what causes the system to fail. Is it too little production of energy products, or too much entropy associated with these energy products? Astrophysicist Francois Roddier tells me that he thinks it is too much entropy that causes the system to fail, and I tend to agree with him. The rising amount of debt, pollution, and income inequality tend to bring the system down, long before “running out” of energy products becomes a problem. In fact, the low commodity prices we are now experiencing appear to be part of the entropy problem as well.

Can Renewable Energy Be a Solution?

As far as I can see, renewable energy, unless it is very cheap (like hydroelectric dams were many years ago), absolutely does not work as a solution to our energy problems. The basic issue is that the energy system works on an energy flow year basis. To match energy-in versus energy-out, we need to analyze at each calendar year separately. For example, we need to match energy going into making offshore wind turbines against energy coming out of offshore wind turbines, for each calendar year (say 2016). To keep the net energy flow positive, there needs to be an extremely slow ramp-up of high-cost renewable energy.

In a way, high-cost renewable energy is very close to entropy-only energy. Because of the energy flow year nature of the system, renewable energy generates very little energy, net of energy going into its production. (In some instances, renewable energy may actually be an energy sink.) Instead, renewable energy generates lots of entropy-related products, including increased debt and increased taxes to pay for subsidies. It also adds to the complexity to the system, because of the variable nature of its output. Perhaps renewable energy is less bad at generating pollution, or maybe the pollution is simply of a different type. Ultimately, it is a problem, just as any other type of supplemental energy is.

One problem with so-called renewable energy is that it can’t be expected to outlast the system as a whole, unless it is part of some off-grid system with backup batteries and an inverter. Even then, the lifetime of the whole system is limited to the lifetime of the shortest-lived necessary component: solar panels, battery backup, inverter, and the device the user is trying to run with the system, such as a water pump.

There are currently many stresses on our economic system. We can’t be certain that the system will last very long. When the system starts collapsing, it is likely to take grid-connected electricity systems with it.

What Is the Connection to Energy Returned on Energy Invested (EROEI)?

If a person believes that energy is a one pump system (the left pump in Figure 3), then a person’s big concern is “running out.” If a person wants to maximize the benefit of energy resources, he will choose energy resources with as high an EROEI as possible. In other words, he will try to get as much energy out per unit of energy in as possible. For example, one estimate gives EROEI of 100 to 1 for hydroelectric,  80 to 1 for coal, and much lower ratios for other fuels. Thus, a mix that is heavy in hydroelectric and coal will stretch energy supplies as far as possible.

Another place where EROEI is important is in determining “net” energy, that is, energy net of the energy going into making it.

As I mentioned above, energy per capita needs to be at least level to keep the economy from collapsing. In fact, net energy per capita probably needs to be slightly increasing to keep the economy growing sufficiently, if “net” energy is adjusted for all of the effects that simultaneously impact the energy needs of the economy, apart from energy used in producing “normal” goods and services. (Most people are not aware of the economy’s growing need for energy supplies. For an explanation regarding why this is true, see my recent post, The Physics of Energy and the Economy.)

In theory, EROEI analyses might be helpful in determining how much gross energy is necessary to produce the desired amount of net energy. In practice, there are many pieces that go into determining the total quantity of net energy required to keep the economy expanding, making the calculation difficult to perform. These include:

  1. The extent to which population is rising.
  2. The extent to which globalization is taking place, and with it, access to other, higher EROEI, energy supplies.
  3. The extent to which the economy is getting more efficient in its use of energy.
  4. The extent to which EROEI is falling for various fuels (on a calendar year basis).
  5. The extent to which average EROEI is falling, because the mix of fuel is changing to become less polluting.
  6.  The extent to which it is taking more energy to extract other resources, such as fresh water and metals.
  7. The extent to which it is taking more energy to make pollution control devices, and work arounds for problems with energy.

Looking at Figure 5, it is not obvious that there is a need for a big adjustment, one way or another, to produce net energy from gross energy. Of course, this may be an artifact of the way GDP is measured. High-priced metals and water are treated as part of GDP, as is the cost of pollution control devices. People’s general standard of living may not be rising, but now they are paying for clean air and water, something they didn’t need to pay for before. It looks like GDP is increasing, but there is little true benefit from the higher GDP.

The one big take-away I have from Figure 7 is simply that if our goal is to get net energy to rise sufficiently, the best way to do this is to make certain that gross energy production rises sufficiently. World leaders were successful in doing this since 2001, through their globalization efforts. Of course, the new energy we got was mostly coal–bad from the points of view of pollution and workers’ wages in developed countries, but good from some other perspectives: low direct debt requirement, low complexity requirement, and high EROEI.

Figure 8. China's energy consumption by fuel, based on data of BP Statistical Review of World Energy 2015.

Figure 8. China’s energy consumption by fuel, based on data of BP Statistical Review of World Energy 2015.

One issue with EROEI calculations is that they disregard timing, and thus are not on an energy flow-year basis. Ignoring timing also means the calculations give little information regarding the likely debt build-up associated with an energy product.

Conclusion

If a person doesn’t understand what the problem is, it is easy to come to the wrong conclusion. Part of our problem is that we need a growing amount of net energy, per capita, to keep the economy from collapsing. Part of our problem is that entropy problems such as rising debt, increased pollution, and increasing complexity tend to bring the system down, even when we seem to have plenty of energy supplies. These are the two big problems we are facing that few people recognize.

Another part of our problem is that it is necessary for common laborers to have good paying jobs, and in fact rising pay, if the economy is to continue to grow. As much as we would like everyone to have advanced training (and training that changes with each new innovation), the productivity of workers does not rise sufficiently to justify the high cost of giving advanced education to a large share of the population. Instead, we must deal with the fact that the world’s economy needs large numbers of workers with relatively little training. In fact, we need rising pay for these workers, because there are so many of them, and they are the ones who keep the “demand” part of the commodity price cycle high enough.

Robots may be very efficient at producing goods and services, but they cannot recycle the earnings of the system. In theory, businesses could pay very high taxes on the output of automated systems, so that governments could create make-work projects to hire all of the unemployed workers. In practice, the idea is impractical–the businesses would simply move to an area with lower taxes.

Growth now is slowing because of all of the entropy issues involved. People in China cannot stand any more pollution. Too many laborers in developed countries are being marginalized by globalization and by competition with ever more intelligent machines that can replace much of the function of humans. None of this would be a problem, except that we have a huge amount of debt that needs to be repaid with interest, and we need commodity prices to rise high enough to encourage production. If these problems are not fixed, the whole system will collapse, even though there seems to be a surplus of energy products.

Our Finite World



36 Comments on "Our economic growth system is reaching limits in a strange way"

  1. IFuckYouOver on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 1:43 pm 

    Gibberish bullshit as usual. A lot of words and phrases put together without referencing anything real, like science and physics.

  2. geopressure on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 1:55 pm 

    That’s how the media gets people… They generate BS stories with no backing… Then if they say it enough, people start to believe it…

    Example: Most Americans think that Republicans are “Angry @ the Establishment” & have turned to Donald Trump… When in reality, no one is angry, they are just incredibly stupid & vote for the person with huge name recognition… No one is angry, but it suits the racist narrative that the Media is angling steadily angling toward…

    The Media CONTROLS America… They control our thoughts, beliefs, & opinions… They have so much control over America that they can sway Republican Primary Campaigns & manufacture fake oil gluts…

  3. practicalMaina on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 2:03 pm 

    Mexico City is keeping 1.1 million cars off the road and offering free public transportation while smog levels are high.

    Now we just need 20 more big citys to do this and we will be cooking with fire.
    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/03/16/mexico-city-bans-11m-cars-in-1st-smog-alert-in-11-years.html

  4. geopressure on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 2:09 pm 

    practicalMania:

    There is not enough oil to go around… That’s why the Mexican Government has been persuaded to curtail demand…

    It has nothing to do with Smog, except that smog is the excuse they tell the common folks…

  5. practicalMaina on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 2:20 pm 

    They should have thrown a tax on domestic gas sales, that would have had a bigger result. I see more new pickups on the road right now than I can remember.

  6. Apneaman on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 2:22 pm 

    geo have you been to mexico city? You know that there are a number of mega cities that have been having this same problem for years now and have adopted similar measures. Are they part of your conspiracy too?

  7. geopressure on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 2:40 pm 

    Funny it occurs right now… When refineries are blowing up &/or shutting down left & right..

  8. geopressure on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 2:44 pm 

    Six US refineries have shut down this year… That doesn’t strike you as odd??? At a time when Demand for fuel is at all time highs???

    Why do you think that Pipelines are going down all over the world on a deadly basis??? Because we are at the point to where those pipelines matter!!! There is nothing left in storage…

  9. geopressure on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 2:47 pm 

    *On a daily basis… not Deadly Basis…

  10. Apneaman on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 2:49 pm 

    Funny, I’m a retired boilermaker who worked many refinery shut downs. Loved shut downs. Some years, if you got lucky you could hit four or five good ones and take the rest of the year off. Preferably somewhere warm and cheap (booze, women and accommodations).

  11. geopressure on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 2:53 pm 

    I see where the Shell / Aramco Refining Partnership is splitting up in the United States…

    Each company is walking away with refineries… The Aramco Refinery, you can rest assured it will be forced out of business somehow in the first half of 2016…

    Why? Because Aramco refuses to increase production, so the U.S. is destroying them…

    Shell is trying to protect their shareholders…

  12. geopressure on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 2:58 pm 

    These are not refinery shutdowns…

    I’m talking about refinery CLOSURES…

    I mean seriously, I’m not stupid… You amy not agree with me, but I’m not stupid…

  13. geopressure on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 3:02 pm 

    Here’s a partial list… seems like there is another one on the West Coast…

    -Delta/Murphy, 80K (jet fuel)
    -Petrobras, Pasadena, 100K (explosion)
    -Chevron, Pascagoula, 324K (‘planned’ closure, just after a $1.4 Billion Dollar Upgrade – kinda fishy)
    -Exxon, Imperial, Dartmoth, 89K
    -Tesoro, Los Angelas, (explosion)

  14. GregT on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 3:11 pm 

    geo,

    Very strange indeed. You might be on to something here. Any links that you come across would be appreciated.

    Thanks

  15. GregT on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 3:14 pm 

    Chevron Corporation To Shut Down Refinery In 2016

    Chevron Corporation is planning to shut down three units of its Mississippi refinery in March 2016, and eliminate, as many as 1500 jobs worldwide

    http://www.businessfinancenews.com/23621-chevron-corporation-cvx-to-shut-down-refinery-in-2016/

  16. geopressure on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 3:49 pm 

    I’ve saved volumes & volumes of supporting data since this all began in 2014, but it’s a tiny bit of information here, & bit more over there… The truth is never spelled out…

    The Media is absolutely Overwhelming in opposition to the truth as related to Supply/Demand of crude oil – or they have been since the US changed policy in March of 2014…

    The easiest way to show that there is an oil shortage is to ask why is it that Refineries in places like Nigeria & Yemen are unable to acquire crude oil to process… If there is truly a huge surplus like the EIA & Media suggest then why are upstream countries unable to feed their own refineries?

    http://tradearabia.com/news/OGN_298736.html

  17. shortonoil on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 4:15 pm 

    “Entropy is a measure of the disorder associated with the extraction and consumption of fossil fuels and other energy products.”

    Entropy is a property of matter; like volume, temperature, or mass are properties. It is a measure of the effect of the irreversibilities present in a system. It is expressed mathematically by statements such as The Clausius inequality, and it has the units of Q/T. In the English Engineering system of units that is BTU/ °Rankine.

    Entropy is not a measure of disorder. A low entropy system can be more disordered than a similar system at a high state of entropy. An example would be a petroleum reservoir. As oil is pumped out of the reservoir its entropy goes down; entropy is transferred out with mass flow. The reservoir has not gotten more ordered.

    As the world’s reservoir was pumped out the entropy of the reservoir went down, as the entropy of the overall system went up. The overall system has gotten continually more ordered over time. It is now one of the most ordered, and complex systems on earth.

    If the author is attempting to rewrite the Laws of Thermodynamics, they have failed miserably.

  18. GregT on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 4:19 pm 

    I’ve pretty much stopped listening to the MSM, except to read between the lines. There is nothing free about the Associated ‘free’ Press anymore. The same verbatim pablum on every channel. One thing for certain, we’re not being told the truth. If we were, there wouldn’t be so much confusion and speculation as to what’s really going on.

    Keep the links coming geo. If no one else is listening, I am.

  19. GregT on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 4:21 pm 

    Oh, and Short’s ETP model fits perfectly. Time will tell.

  20. Apneaman on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 5:26 pm 

    Geo, you need to show shutdown/turnaround schedules for multiple years for comparison. Show something radically different or it’s just speculation. I have been on both scheduled maintenance shutdowns/turnarounds and emergency ones. Plenty of people work full time a refineries – got anything from any of them?

  21. Boat on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 5:34 pm 

    GregT,
    “I’ve pretty much stopped listening to the MSM, except to read between the lines. There is nothing free about the Associated ‘free’ Press anymore”.

    You have always been a follower. Every human ever born is biased including those who write, read or speak. Good to see your learning.

  22. Boat on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 5:50 pm 

    geo,

    “The Media CONTROLS America… They control our thoughts, beliefs, & opinions… They have so much control over America that they can sway Republican Primary Campaigns & manufacture fake oil gluts”…

    Let me see, since MSM convinced you your controled I can’t read your comments without becomng controled. Bat shyt crazy…

  23. GregT on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 6:29 pm 

    Boat,

    “Good to see your learning.”

    Not at all surprising to see that you’re not.

  24. makati1 on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 7:33 pm 

    Perhaps they should ALL shut down? Demand is NOT growing no matter what your local MSM propaganda machine is spewing out. There is obviously no PROFIT in keeping them open or they would not be closing down. You want a capitalist system and you have to take the down with the up. There will be more down from now on. We are headed to the bottom and we will stay there. Adjust.

  25. GregT on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 7:51 pm 

    Boat nonsensical quote of the day;

    “Let me see, since MSM convinced you your controled I can’t read your comments without becomng controlled.”

  26. Harquebus on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 10:16 pm 

    I have always found that Gail Tverberg is one person that does get it.
    There are relationships between politics, the economy, finance, population, resources and energy. Without political interference and fiat enabled finance, we would experiencing the real effects of peak oil now. Presently, these effects are being hidden behind the biggest debt bubble in history.

  27. Pennsyguy on Thu, 17th Mar 2016 10:37 pm 

    I agree with you Harquebus. Gail sees the connections between energy, EROIE, money and economic activity. It’s all bound by complex interconnections that most people don’t see. Nobody can see it all or make 100% accurate predictions of how and when it collapses, but it is still good to look at them. It sure as hell beats watching any talking head on the tube.

  28. Truth Has A Liberal Bias on Fri, 18th Mar 2016 3:30 am 

    Gail writes thoughtful articles and presents interesting data sets. Just because you don’t agree doesn’t mean you have to be rude you ducking retards.

  29. yoananda on Fri, 18th Mar 2016 4:31 am 

    Like I said on the other post (but too late so nobody read it) :

    I think EROEI is totally misleading tool.

    If with 1 barrel I get 3 barrels of oil. I have an EROEI of 3.
    But with my 3 barrels, I can use 1 barrel to get 3 more.
    So with 1 initial barrel I get 3+3-1=5 barrels. So my EROEI is 5. And so on.

    EROEI should be timeframed.
    It’s an all different story if I get 3 barrels out of 1 in 1 day or in 1 month or in 1 year.

    And not only that.
    With 1 barrel, and a 70’s car, I can travel, lets say, 100 miles.
    But what if win 1 barrel and a 2010’s car I can travel 200 miles…
    It’s like I get 2 barrels.
    So oil volume is not enough to get the story.

    Last argument againt’s EOREI.
    If with 1 oil barrel I can get 3 barrels of oil PLUS 1t of coal, then the total EROEI will be more important.

    EROEI could be an interresting tool, but it has to be completed, in my opinion, and also, compared to (like Gail says) human work.
    How an EROEI of 3 with 100hour of human work compare to an EROEI of 3 with 10hour of human work ?

    Does anybody have worked on theses questions ?
    (I will if nobody did, when I get the time to do it)

  30. theedrich on Fri, 18th Mar 2016 5:16 am 

    “Astrophysicist Francois Roddier tells me that he thinks it is too much entropy that causes the system to fail, and I tend to agree with him.  The rising amount of debt, pollution, and income inequality tend to bring the system down, long before ‘running out’ of energy products becomes a problem.  In fact, the low commodity prices we are now experiencing appear to be part of the entropy problem as well.”

    Gee Whillikers!  And we were told that “they” were on the brink of developing a perpetual motion machine.  High-school dropouts are supposed to be guaranteed a constantly increasing “living wage,” so that we can have more demand and an every rising economy.

    Gail’s arguments are excellent, but incomplete.  In addition, international politics has to be stirred into the mixture, which makes predictions all the more difficult.  If, say, Pakistan decides to nuke arch-enemy India, or North Korea makes some unanticipated, extraordinary breakthrough in nuclear ballistics, the global situation could change without notice.  All one can say is that the current economic and resource calculations give a terminus ante quem — a time before which the entire system will break down.  All things considered, that time seems to be the middle of this century.

  31. Davy on Fri, 18th Mar 2016 7:50 am 

    “I think EROEI is totally misleading tool. If with 1 barrel I get 3 barrels of oil. I have an EROEI of 3. But with my 3 barrels, I can use 1 barrel to get 3 more. So with 1 initial barrel I get 3+3-1=5 barrels. So my EROEI is 5.” Oil is not money in the bank that gets compound interest. Try thinking back to the wolves that hunts rabbits maybe that will make it easier. If the wolf can’t catch enough rabbits it starves. The concept is fine how you use it or try to interpret it is where it becomes misleading.

  32. yoananda on Fri, 18th Mar 2016 3:49 pm 

    @Davy
    a truck or a pipeline don’t starve.

  33. Apneaman on Fri, 18th Mar 2016 4:06 pm 

    “That theory, as it is expressed by the maximum power principle, addresses the empirical question of why systems of any type or size organize themselves into the patterns observed. Such a question assumes that physical laws govern system function. It does not assume, for example, that the system comprising economic production is driven by consumers; rather that the whole cycle of production-consumption is structured and driven by physical laws.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_power_principle

  34. marmico on Sat, 19th Mar 2016 7:49 am 

    Tverberg says: The poor 2015 performance in Figure 2 reflects a combination of falling inflation rates, as a result of falling commodity prices, and a rising relativity of the US dollar to other currencies.

    Tverberg is a doom porn idjit for copying the chart of the Gross Planetary Product idjit. Figure 2 is strictly the ~10% rise in the US dollar index in 2015. It’s called desperation for the finite worlder and seems pointless to read the rest of the gibberish.

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