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Page added on July 8, 2015
Energy Storage and the Cost of Going Off-Grid
- New energy storage offerings from Tesla and other manufacturers are widely expected to enhance the attractiveness of rooftop solar power and other renewables.
- However, recent analysis from the Brattle Group shows that even with rapid cost reductions, grid-independence will remain beyond the reach of most consumers.
Last month’s Annual Energy Conference of the US Energy Information Administration included speakers and panels on topics such as crude-by-rail, potential US oil exports, and the role of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, all of which should be familiar to my readers here. However, the topic that really caught my interest this year was energy storage.
Storage has been in the news lately, particularly since the launch of Tesla’s new home and commercial energy storage products. In fact, Tesla’s Chief Technology Officer spoke on the first morning of the conference. Much of his talk (very large file) focused on Tesla’s expectations for the cost of storage to decline sharply as electric vehicles (EVs) and non-vehicle battery applications grow. Whether battery costs can drop as quickly as those for solar photovoltaic (PV) cells or not, storage is likely to become a more important factor in energy markets in the years ahead.
One of the most interesting presentations I saw examined a provocative aspect of this question. Michael Kline of The Brattle Group, which consults extensively on electricity, took a detailed look at whether rooftop PV and home energy storage might become sufficiently attractive that a large number of consumers would employ the combination to enable them to disconnect from the power grid entirely. That would be an extremely appealing idea for a lot of people. The author of a book I received from the publisher a few years ago referred to it as a movement.
Most people by now appear to understand that solar panels alone can’t make a household independent of the grid. The daily and seasonal incidence of sunlight aligns imperfectly with the peaks and troughs of typical home electricity demand. This is why “net metering“, under which PV owners sell excess power to their local utility–effectively using the grid as a free battery–has become contentious in some electricity markets.
In a true off-grid scenario, net metering would be unavailable. Onsite storage would thus be necessary to shift in time the kilowatt-hours of energy produced from a home PV array. However, a standalone PV + storage system must be sized to deliver enough instantaneous peak power to handle periodic high-load events like the startup of air conditioners and other devices. Another presenter on the same panel had a nifty chart demonstrating how wide those variations can be, with multiple spikes each day averaging above 12 kilowatts (kW)–several times the output of a typical rooftop PV array.
Brattle’s off-grid model included PV and storage optimized to “meet load in every hour given a battery with 3 days of storage (at average load levels.)” Although that is still probably less than the peak load such a system would encounter, it is the equivalent of multiple Tesla “Powerwall” units and would only be practical with the kind of drastic cost reductions Mr. Kline assumed by 2025: PV at $1.50/W and storage at $100/kWh, installed. That equates to around a third of last year’s average US residential PV installation and 1/7th the estimated installed cost of Tesla’s offering on a retail basis.
Mr. Kline framed this exercise as a “stress test”, not just of the off-grid proposition but of the future of the electric power grid. If many millions of customers were to “cut the cord” for electricity as others have for wireline telephone service, even a “smart” power grid would become much less important and might shrink over time. That same logic should extend to the power generators supplying the grid. If most consumers went off-grid, the value of even the most flexible generation on the grid, which today is often provided by natural gas turbines, would fall, as would demand for the fuel on which they run.
In Brattle’s assessment, despite the assumption of very cheap PV and storage, that prospect seems remote. For the three markets analyzed (California, Texas and Westchester County, NY) the levelized cost of energy (LCOE) for the off-grid configuration modeled was significantly more expensive than the EIA’s projected cost of electricity in those markets in 2025. In fact, for consumers in California and Texas, as well as in all cases of the parallel commercial customer analysis Brattle performed, PV + storage would be expected to cost a multiple of retail electricity prices.
As Mr. Kline explained, under more realistic assumptions the comparison was likely to be even worse for off-grid options. However, his conclusion that , “going off-grid…is unlikely to be the least expensive option for most consumers” does not mean that some consumers would not choose to do so, anyway. To them, a premium of 10-20 cents per kWh might seem like a small price to pay for personal energy independence. Yet at that price, it is hard to envision it would become a mass-market choice.
Mr. Kline made a point of reminding his audience that Brattle’s analysis did not mean that distributed energy would not be competitive in the future, or that it could not provide valuable services to customers and to the grid. Importantly, the figures he presented underlined the continued value of the power grid to customers, even in a future in which large quantities of PV and storage are deployed. As he put it, “Distributed energy is a complement to the grid, not a substitute for it.”
By extension, flexible generating assets like fast-reacting gas turbines should also continue to provide significant value, especially during those seasons when daily solar input is low, and in locations where average sun exposure is generally much weaker than in the US Southwest and other prime solar resource regions. As appealing as the idea might be to some, storage seems unlikely to make either the grid or any class of generating technologies obsolete for the foreseeable future. As Bill Gates recently observed, that has implications for the cost of a wholesale shift to current renewables and away from fossil fuels.
38 Comments on "Energy Storage and the Cost of Going Off-Grid"
Apneaman on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 11:20 am
Summary
“Fossil fuel consumption is increasing in all the developing regions of the world and outstripping reductions made by the developed world. It makes the prospect of climate change agreement at the December COP impossible to contemplate.
The growth of renewables is stalling. It is concerning that this is happening when it still constitutes such a small percentage (1.81%) of the total global fossil fuel energy production. It severely challenges the arguments that are being put forward at the COP conferences that renewable technologies will provide the key to a zero carbon economy.
There is no evidence to substantiate the claim that developing economies will take up new low carbon technologies in such a significant way that they will leap-frog the fossil fuel consumption stage of past industrialised economies.
Given the severe state of climate change as measured by the Arctic ice cap melting and atmospheric CO2 already exceeding 400ppm, these figures demonstrate that unless we radically change our approach we will be unable to avoid the total collapse of our ecosystem and our extinction.
This set of data brings the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) that formed the basis of the Cold War into a new and more brutal focus. Unless we can all agree on an immediate and significant reduction in CO2 emissions along with restoration of our ecosystem and successful geo engineering, then MAD is our fate. ”
http://kevsclimatecolumn.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/a-brief-analysis-of-2015-bp-statistical.html?m=0
Plantagenet on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 11:31 am
Its nice that wealthy folks can set up remote compounds where they can live “off the grid” Several such wealthy “off-the-grid” folks regularly post here, and more power to ’em (pun intended). However, as this article points out, these kinds of arrangements remain financially out of reach for most people.
Cheers!
yellowcanoe on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 11:56 am
Plant, I’d hardly classify everyone living off the grid as being wealthy. Most people living off the grid are offsetting their higher cost for power by consuming far less than the average grid connected household.
ghung on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 12:08 pm
Plant: “Its nice that wealthy folks can set up remote compounds where they can live “off the grid””
Funny that, Plant. Of all the off-gridders I know, none are wealthy by American standards. Indeed, most have made choices that avoid the accumulation of wealth: living very modest lifestyles; lower-than-average levels of consumption (few toys, no expensive vacations, only have productive hobbies – no golfers in this group, etc); pragmatic, deliberate, self-motivated, non-status-seeking, self-taught, clear thinking folks for the most part. Few, if any, are “doomers”.
I suggest you re-examine your stereotypes.
I lived in a used RV for over 6 years while building our home using many salvaged and or traded-for-labor materials. Even our first PV panels were salvaged (going strong in their 20th year of production), and our original 6 acres was exchanged for a piece of land I purchased on a Navy E-5 salary. The adjacent acreage was inherited after that fact. I learned the skills myself through books, helping others with more experience, trial/error,, all that. I also worked several jobs (none high-paying) during this time. I even sold my fishing boat (miss it sometimes 🙁
I don;t want to bore folks with all the details, but it’s all about priorities and making choices. I suggest that many folks are (or feel) trapped by their choices and society’s expectations. It’s their prerogative, but they tend to make gross generalisations about others who don’t share their priorities; largely inaccurate.
FYI: Our off-grid additional costs (compared to current grid-tied system costs) was less than bringing grid power to our site. Our amortized battery costs are between $600 – $700 dollars per year (includes a surplus for other maintenance costs which are minimal). All work is done by us. We took no govt. subsidies or credits until we upgraded our solar hot water and added some PV panels last year. Our tax liability is such that it’ll take several years to use those credits.
penury on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 12:37 pm
If a person today has a problem affording energy delivered thru the grid, how is that person expected to invest in off the grid living? Sure panels may be down in cost, but what will battery storage cost? Face facts, fewer people will be able to afford alternate energy. The cost of storage will be high, just because the select few who have adapted to alt energy can afford it, there are millions of us who cannot.
dave thompson on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 12:54 pm
Batteries,inverters,solar panels and the lot, all are about the continuation of BAU. None of these “alternatives” exist without FF inputs.
ghung on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 1:08 pm
“…just because the select few who have adapted to alt energy can afford it, there are millions of us who cannot.”
And millions can’t afford to eat, get their teeth fixed, etc.
Other millions have more house than they need, big payments/taxes/insurance on cars they don’t need, buy junk they don’t need, eat out, take vacations on credit cards, have pets, send their 5 year-old daughters to ballet lessons, big TVs with hefty programming packages, netflix….. in short they’re too busy consuming shit trying to make themselves feel better rather than investing in paying things forward.
I haven’t had a utility bill in 20 years. That money goes to paying other things forward,, or doesn’t have to be made in the first place, reducing our tax liability (not paying for a largely corrupt govt. and wars not-of-necessity, other things I disagree with). Living the ‘me now’, instant gratification consumer lifestyle certainly has its drawbacks.
Jeez, I don’t even have a cell phone. That choice alone will pay for new batteries over time. Call my landline. I’ll return the call when I get out of the garden. Speaking of which…….
Apneaman on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 1:17 pm
ghung, good points and well said. Planty has confused off griders with the middle class suburbanites many who are lefty pseudo greens . I’m sure some of them mean well, but for the most part they have willingly fallen prey to the green washing. They never wanted to give up anything – just the guilt. And with many of them solar and the Prius are liberal/green status symbols.
ghung on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 1:30 pm
dave: “Batteries,inverters,solar panels and the lot, all are about the continuation of BAU. None of these “alternatives” exist without FF inputs.”
…. or a hedge against an uncertain future where the cost/affordability curve is likely to get very problematic for many. This whole “continuation of BAU” argument got old a long time ago. Been hearing the same empty arguments for 20 years.
It’s about keeping the lights on for at least a time, and taking some level of responsibility for one’s own energy use; “less is more strategy” and all that. Some choices are less imperfect than others.
It’s about rejecting the gridweenie mentality. Fact is, most folks are scared shitless by the idea of being more self-sufficient; don’t think they can hack it. Clearly, most can’t, so they’ll ride the sinking BAU ship until it founders, then demand a lifeboat from folks like me. Many could have taken a different path but didn’t, and I keep track of who those folks are. Funny thing is, the people who have the most ability to make better choices seem to have the least incentive to do so.
BAU is dying a slow, excruciating death and nothing can stop that. Got any better ideas?
Davy on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 1:34 pm
Ape Man referenced “Unless we can all agree on an immediate and significant reduction in CO2 emissions along with restoration of our ecosystem and successful geo engineering, then MAD is our fate.”
Ape let’s admit there will be nothing immediate happen on climate change because we are not capable of action except around the edges and where it benefits someone. Significant reductions in CO2 means a few billion people will go hungry and die of exposure. There is no way we can restore the ecosystem. The ecosystem will heal when humans have a population level bellow 1BIL. Ecosystem healing could take 1000 years. Geo engineering is a complete joke because technology is what got us here and technology will not get us out of here.
The only solution is the death of 6 or more billion people within 10 years or less. When these climate change people start talking in these terms then I will agree they have solutions. I am completely supportive of their findings on climate change. Yet, I feel we should be just as honest on the solutions as on the causes and results.
Since there will be no solutions suitable for our complex global civilization we should begin to adapt to a dangerous world of a collapsing civilization on multiple fronts. We can mitigate some of the pain and suffering. We should also ask ourselves how much time we have just like a terminally ill patient. Ten years is an eternity. If we have 10 years we still have time to enjoy life. What else can we say if there are no solutions? I am all ears because this is the biggest tragedy man has ever faced.
dave thompson on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 1:38 pm
Good point Ghung, I do have a solar system on hand for emergency.
ghung on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 1:47 pm
Thanks dave. The real answer is that everything,, EVERYTHING, we have, do, rely upon, is oil-soaked and assumes a continuation of BAU. Some less than others. All we can do is hope and plan to buy ourselves a little more time.
I have a sister that keeps a backup supply of insulin and other meds in our refrigerator in case of an extended grid outage. It’s sort of like that.
Plantagenet on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 1:47 pm
Obvioulsy some people commenting on this thread didn’t read the article.
The article says: “recent analysis from the Brattle Group shows that even with rapid cost reductions, grid-independence will remain beyond the reach of most consumers.”
If you don’t understand what that means, then read it again more slowly and say the words out loud.
Yes, it is possible to live cheaply “off-the-grid is someone is lucky enough to inherit a piece or property or has other similar luck. But the fact remains that installing solar, wind, or geothermal energy systems is an expensive proposition, as is buying land, building houses and farm buildings, and buying farm equipment and raising crops. Do the math, kids—those things are expensive and beyond the means of most Americans except for the wealthy.
CHEERS!
Davy on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 1:54 pm
Dave said: “Batteries,inverters,solar panels and the lot, all are about the continuation of BAU. None of these “alternatives” exist without FF inputs.” Yeap, so what. When one realizes we have zero probability of leaving FF except by death then you consider AltE as way to (as G-man says) …. “hedge against an uncertain future where the cost/affordability curve is likely to get very problematic for many.”
Ask any Special Forces soldier about preparations. For a Special Forces soldier preparation is a way of life. They are experts at it. They will tell you that preparations win battles. They go into battle with a plan B, C, and D. If some of you just want to ride your ship into the storm with no preparations fine but quit your bullshit criticism for those who are manning-up and preparing. I have people that will need me to be there when they are hungry and cold. I am a provider not a tit sucker.
This whole doom and prep story is complex. Many people do not have the luxury of dooming, prepping, or both. They do not have the intellect, the resources, or the will. Those of you who do have it but don’t want to then quit your bitching and take your punishment when it comes. Take it like a man. You chose it so take it. Anyone here that can prep in a minimum way and doesn’t is an idiot.
ghung on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 2:08 pm
Sure, Plant. A nice off-grid system can be had for about the price of an average car, and, unlike the car, a PV system can be built incrementally over time,, and unlike a car, many folks can acquire the simple skills needed to assemble and maintain the system. That’s exactly how I did it. Even a small off-grid system can be useful and productive, while a car produces nothing at all; net energy and $$$ sink.
Our society somehow manages to support over 200 MILLION cars and light trucks with all of their ongoing costs. Your argument just doesn’t hold up.
Plantagenet on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 2:15 pm
@ghung
Your argument just does’t hold up. Most Americans have essentially no savings and live paycheck to paycheck.
Lets consider you claims about cars. Yes, People take out loans to buy cars to commute to work to earn the money to pay off the car loan.
So is that transferable to building an off-the-grid power system?
Someone who takes out a $30k loan to install an off-the-grid power system still wouldn’t have the money to buy a car to commute to work to earn the money to pay off the loan for the off-grid power system.
Get it now?
CHEERS!
Davy on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 2:42 pm
Planter, not every American is poor. We are talking tradeoffs. People choose to put their money where they feel value. Many people do not find AltE gives them value. Many could afford some but choose not to have any. Yes, some can’t afford it. This is especially true of an elaborate system. Smart people are investing in AltE for a number of reasons. What about you planter?
penury on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 2:49 pm
I guess we all prep in our own ways. Trying to bring all of the trappings of BAU into the collapse is one way. Another way is to look at what life was like before all the gismos we have now and learn how to exist without electricity, running water, gas stoves etc, I grew up that way and while it is not like today life was still possible. People can subsist on less allit takes is practice.
GregT on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 2:51 pm
1.3 billion people around the world are currently living ‘off the grid’. They have no access to electricity, and even if they did, they wouldn’t have anything to power with electricity anyways.
As economies continue to unravel, more and more people will be forced to live ‘off the grid’. When the oil age ends, the end of the age of electricity will follow shortly after. Everyone will need to return to living ‘off the grid’, just like human beings have done for tens of thousands of years. Electricity costs money. Having no electricity doesn’t cost anything.
Plantagenet on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 3:06 pm
@Davy
Of course not every American is poor. But the fact remains that most Americans have essentially no savings and live paycheck to paycheck.
“The average savings account balance in the U.S. was $5,923 in 2011…New Jersey residents saved the most, with average savings account balances of $7,872, while those in New Mexico had accounts averaging just $4,119, the lowest in the U.S….the average checking account balance in 2011 was $3,100 Bankrate.com reported in 2012 that 28 percent of American families have no savings. Another 20 percent don’t have enough saved to cover even three months’ worth of living expenses, while just 43 percent have enough in savings to cover three months of expenses.”
Do the math—48% of Americans either have no savings or just a few thousands dollars, and another 43% have 10K max.
Why can’t you guys understand these simple facts? Most people don’t have $100,000 to buy a doomstead, or $30,000 to install a wind and solar array, or more money to live there without having to work, especially with longer drives commuting to work, or more money to farm.
You are a rich guy, Davy. Good for you. But most people have little to no money and can’t afford to go off-grid.
CHEERS!
Plantagenet on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 3:09 pm
@grgr
People who live “off the grid” in Africa or other third world counties live subsistence lifestyles. They are part of traditional societies adapted to living off the land.
That is a lot different then your typical American, who would quickly starve if dumped into a rural area and told to live off the land.
Davy on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 3:19 pm
Planter, quit being your usual simpleton. This is not about completely going off the grid it is about doing something. Doing the math 48% is not 100% planter. There are many Americans that could be doing some kind of investment in AltE, efficiency, and resilience. You are the numb nut that talks about the glut and how everything is hunky and dory then you lament the poor state of the economy. BTW, what is your definition of rich? What about stupid rich and smart rich? Which one are you Planter?
Plantagenet on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 3:23 pm
Gosh, Davy. Why are you so wee-wee’d up?
YOu are lucky you were born into a wealthy family. I suggest you accept your good fortune with some grace and try to remember that not everyone was born with a silver spoon in their mouth like you.
MSN Fanboy on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 5:26 pm
Davy, what Plant means is an increasing majority of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck as their wages dont match inflationary pressures.
IT FITS IN WITH POD: THE CONSUMERS FIND THEMSELVES INCREASING IMPOVERISHED AND INTURN FIND IT HARDER TO BUY OIL PRODUCTS… PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING.
The Irony is this has lead to an oil glut as consumers cant afford expensive oil like they could cheap.
Of course Plant hasnt made that connection yet lol 😉
eugene on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 6:21 pm
For a change, I agree with Plant completely. If you are in the income range of making “priorities”, you are living beyond the reach of tens of millions. The vast, vast majority of commenters haven’t a clue as to how millions live. Average family, read family, income in my area is 35K a yr. Many are living on 8-10 an hour and that’s no benefits. Most of you truly need to get a grip.
GregT on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 7:19 pm
How does one define “going off the grid”?
If we’re talking about maintaining a normal level of consumption, forget about it. Very few people have the disposable income available to put together a system capable of generating enough electricity 24/7-365 to maintain what they have become accustomed to. The first step is to reduce consumption. The further that consumption is reduced the less electricity is required. In reality, the one appliance in the home that is more of a need than any other is the refrigerator/freezer. The rest of the stuff that we use electricity for is mostly unnecessary.
Going off the grid does not mean the continuation of BAU. Sacrifices must be made. How much one is willing to sacrifice, determines how much a system will cost. The PV system in my trailer can be bought for 800 Canadian dollars. If the sun is shining it produces enough electricity to keep us in power indefinitely. Until components fail or the batteries wear out, of course.
Eventually, our economies are going to collapse. People everywhere planter are going to quickly starve. Those that had the foresight to plan for the future have a much better chance of making it through the coming bottleneck than those that haven’t.
Electricity is a nicety, not a necessity. Food and water are necessities, neither of which require ‘the grid’.
Makati1 on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 9:05 pm
eugene, billions live “off the grid”.
Your comment that “most commenters haven’t a clue” is spot on. The two families that are our farm’s closest neighbors have neither running water nor electric and have managed quite well for decades. We are setting up our farm to be independent of electric and “running water” with a rainwater system using gravity and nothing electric to make it all work. When the sun goes down, we sleep. When it comes up, we work and play. Not difficult. No watches, clocks, or alarms required. Even calendars would be unnecessary if you know when the equinox happens and how to recognize it.
Yes, we will have some commercial electric and internet for as long as it lasts, but we are planning for their demise. That is all any of us can do. Hand tools, candles, open fire cooking with cast iron, etc. was good enough for thousands of years and will be good enough if any of us get through the extinction bottleneck coming.
Kenz300 on Wed, 8th Jul 2015 11:25 pm
The transition to safer, cleaner and cheaper alternative energy sources is growing around the world. If we are to deal with Climate Change we must reduce our use of fossil fuels. Combining wind and solar with storage is the next step.
Renewables to Beat Fossil Fuels With $3.7 Trillion Solar Boom – Renewable Energy World
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/news/2015/06/renewables-to-beat-fossil-fuels-with-3-7-trillion-solar-boom.html
—————-
Renewable Energy Responsible for First Ever Carbon Emissions Stabilization – Renewable Energy World
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/2015/06/renewable-energy-responsible-for-first-ever-carbon-emissions-stabilization.html
simonr on Thu, 9th Jul 2015 4:44 am
Assuming the cost of your off grid system costs 10000 (www.wholesalesolar.com) and lasts up to 20 years.
paying this as a 10year load is 143 (ish) per month, thus 1716 per year, so the question is …. is your leccy bill >= 1716 per year (or predicted to rise to this amount).
Now this doesnt tackly the thorny issue, of whether the Gov. should offer 0% loans for this (as they do to the banks)
JW on Thu, 9th Jul 2015 7:34 am
The solution, or my family at least, was quite obvious. If we wanted any form of energy independence and financial freedom then we need to pay down our debt, sell the huge house we bought, and move into something smaller. Smaller houses typically mean less energy to heat/cool and a simpler lifestyle means less energy/money is needed to live in comfort.
While I have no interest of going off-grid, I have every interest to paying as close to the minimum on all of my utilities.
It’s true that not everyone can do what we’re doing, but in theory, those who do will use less FF energy and leave it for those who can’t.
ghung on Thu, 9th Jul 2015 9:06 am
Interesting that the conversation about going off-grid always comes down to “if everybody can’t do it, it’s not worth discussing”, sort of like the teacher in grade school saying; if you don’t have enough gum for everybody, get rid of it”. This, of course, doesn’t invalidate the idea of some folks choosing, and being able to choose, to disconnect from the hyper-complex, increasingly-stressed, increasingly more expensive, environmentally subsidized, generally nasty, and likely-to-grow-less-reliable grid system that is available to most in developed countries.
The position some hold that going off grid is only available to the wealthy is provably false. The supposition that solar and other so-called renewables are merely BAU extenders reliant upon fossil fuels is a strawman argument. Those who posit that alternatives are just as polluting as our current mass-scale, largely fossil-fuel-derived electricity production, are equally obtuse. Did the production of my PV system involve some level of environmental damage? Surely; virtually everything humans do, does. Will my home enjoy 20 more years of available electricity (as it has for the last ~20 years), without dumping more crap into your atmosphere and with few ongoing inputs? Highly likely. Is going off grid (in the sense being discussed) available to everyone, and can BAU as we know it continue? Absolutely not.
Mean old world, ain’t it?
Speculawyer on Thu, 9th Jul 2015 10:59 am
Going off-grid is good for remote cabins and rich people. But in general, it is more cost effective to just install grid-tied solar.
The grid is already there . . . if you have a connection to it then use it. Instead of buying a charge controller and a bunch of batteries, buy more solar PV panels such that you generate more solar PV than you use. I guess it would be wise to design your solar PV system so you can add batteries later without too much change. But for now, there is little reason to install batteries if you have a grid connection.
penury on Thu, 9th Jul 2015 12:17 pm
Interesting that the conversation about going off-grid always comes down to “if everybody can’t do it, it’s not worth discussing”, I think really Ghung it not that everyone needs to do it, the problem s that you need to accept that the great majority of people who would like to do it are not capable,due to age, infirmity, financial conditions or that living in apartments, suburbs or other housing in cities or towns may make it impossible. For the few early adapters who are able to afford it, Congratulations you are among the upper ten per cent in income and I think you should be pleased. However, we poor people know what our fate will be. Same as yours.
ghung on Thu, 9th Jul 2015 1:48 pm
Jeez, pen, firstly, your assumption that I’m (or my houshold is) in the top 10% is laughable. We’re well below the median US income. As of 2013 we were below 40%. Not sure where you got the idea we are financially wealthy by western standards. Maybe some of you can’t accept that, with a little restraint, frugality, and commitment, a little can go along way. Parts of my place look like a junkyard, and I re-task lots of stuff. My PV trackers are made from old satellite dish mounts I got either for free or for a few dollars. Battery cables? Pieces of old welding cable from a friend’s junk pile and/or forged copper pipe. I rarely leave the County dump without something useful in my truck. Vacations? Not unless you count taking the day off to visit the grandkids. I’ve owned one new car in my life; our farm truck bought for cash at a dealer fire sale. We NEVER USE CREDIT, very rarely eat out (only when friends/family insist. We do all of our veterinary work ourselves unless surgery is involved (spay/neuter). I haven’t paid others to repair anything for at least 40 years…
….and I’ve never implied that everyone, or even most people should go off grid, just that many reasons being given for not doing so are bogus. In fact, I hope for a lot of reasons that grid energy stays viable and affordable for all gridweenies, and that our society makes significant progress towards a cleaner more efficient electrified society. We currently don’t use any energy source as wisely as we should; too easy to ignore the incredible endowment we’ve received. Most off-gridders understand this and don’t squander their energy sources. When WE waste electricity, the lights go out. It’s clear that most of you don’t have the same relationship to your electrons. Living off-grid is a mindset as much as anything else.
Davy on Thu, 9th Jul 2015 4:37 pm
G-man I get tired of the “I am supposed to be guilty because I am successful” shit. I think there are some on this board that can’t stand successful people. They come up with everything they can to try to make you feel bad about being yourself. I am not doing bad money wise and I could be doing so much better. I decided to collapse now in a relative sense. I live with normal people and associate with the rich when I must but it is not by choice. Anyone I hear bitch about money here then I know they are jealous and probably failed at managing or earning money.
I also hear the “well you came from a wealthy family bullshit too” and I am telling you to shove it up your ass. I work for my family and it was a miserably fucking experience. They made an example of me to the rest of the employees that a family member could be treated worse than a regular employee. I didn’t even want to work for the family but my first bitch for a wife talked me into it. Things are not always as they seem folks get over it and on with it we got worse things ahead rich or poor.
Anyway, give it a rest with the G-man. You guys can give me shit and I except it but anyone that gives G-man shit again will endure my wrath. He is about the most upstanding on this board. I am a nutter with a silver spoon up my ass so come after me. I will love it. I love numb nuts like the planter head giving me shit about being rich when he is the one sipping port in Gibraltar counting tanker traffic 6 months ago. Anyway folks give it a rest and be happy being yourself.
apneaman on Thu, 9th Jul 2015 4:52 pm
ghung, you made it perfectly clear yesterday that you have forgone many things most N Americans regard as necessary so to live as you do. No matter how many times you explain yourself, it still won’t matter to minds that have been made up.
ghung on Thu, 9th Jul 2015 10:08 pm
Don’t sweat it guys. I understand that a lot of folks don’t have much wiggle room, and am sure many like things the way they are, at least enough so that they aren’t very comfortable with risk. Find that grove and stick with it, eh?
There’s an infinite number of ‘right’ ways to live a life, and just as many ways to get trapped by it.
Chris Hill on Fri, 10th Jul 2015 8:33 am
Everything has trade-offs. The best thing about a solar system is its permanence, the worst thing is the same. Nobody really owns land, think you do just stop paying that property tax. Also, one bad neighbor can make you wish you were somewhere else. If someone could come up with a solar array based on some sort of fold out design built on a long flatbed trailer, I’d be all over it.