[Ibon]

Did they ever mention loss of habitat from human encroachment in relation to frequency of observation of lions killing other offspring?

We have mountain lions and jaguars here at MTCF. I did some research years ago also on the mountain lion in North America. The highest mortality levels of mountain lions for example are adolescent males once they leave their mothers and start to wander far to look for their own territories. And the leading cause of death was being killed by other males in established territories. The 2nd leading cause of death was getting hit by cars. These conclusions came from data gathered from radio collared males.

With native habitat severely reduced encounters with rival males has probably increased, so yes, reducing populations to "parks" has aggravated these cat to cat killings. But before habitat destruction this probably was the leading cause of death to adolescent males. Historically a wandering male mountain lion had the chance to establish teritorries that encompassed low land valleys, wetlands, foot hills, prairies and mountains. Think about that diversity and abundance. Today many of these cats have to eak out a living in a teritorry much restricted. This has caused more antagonistic intra-specific encounters no doubt.

Jupiter, your partially correct .... but these cat to cat killings are part of the ecology of many cat species.

[Newfie]

Does make you wonder what the equivalent of a "park" is for humans.

[Subjectivist]

Twenty or more years ago they did studies were they put pregnant rats in an enclosed structure with room for a few dozen rats to live comfortably. They fed and watered them for about 20% more rats than would be comfortable. Then they just let the rats reproduce freely while observing what happened. The rats quickly overshot the capacity of the food and water resource. When the population got past the comfort level but the rats were still well fed they squabbled but not too violently. When the next generation was born the food supply was no longer large enough and the squables turned into bloody fights where blood would be drawn, and as pressure grew the fights became death matches with the rats killing one another. It wasn't clear if the violence from short rations was due to instinct for self preservation, or just heightened irritability caused by hunger.

It was on PBS back long before I could afford cable with its many more science programs. Has anyone else seen the report I am talking about?

[sparky]

.
it is a well known environmental fact that the biggest selective pressure on an organism is identical organism
predators , disease and starvation are only a brass band counterpoint to the main fight
to be the one passing down its gene to the next generation .
the specie is only an outside form , the gene is the real driver

[jupiters_release]

Did they ever mention loss of habitat from human encroachment in relation to frequency of observation of lions killing other offspring?

We have mountain lions and jaguars here at MTCF. I did some research years ago also on the mountain lion in North America. The highest mortality levels of mountain lions for example are adolescent males once they leave their mothers and start to wander far to look for their own territories. And the leading cause of death was being killed by other males in established territories. The 2nd leading cause of death was getting hit by cars. These conclusions came from data gathered from radio collared males.

With native habitat severely reduced encounters with rival males has probably increased, so yes, reducing populations to "parks" has aggravated these cat to cat killings. But before habitat destruction this probably was the leading cause of death to adolescent males. Historically a wandering male mountain lion had the chance to establish teritorries that encompassed low land valleys, wetlands, foot hills, prairies and mountains. Think about that diversity and abundance. Today many of these cats have to eak out a living in a teritorry much restricted. This has caused more antagonistic intra-specific encounters no doubt.

Jupiter, your partially correct .... but these cat to cat killings are part of the ecology of many cat species.

Of course you wouldn't think a radio collar stuck around a mountain lion's neck wouldn't affect its life or perhaps more importantly how other mountain lions may have viewed these matrix leashed lions as a possible threat to their species?

But before habitat destruction this probably was the leading cause of death to adolescent males.

How scientific of you.

I can't take credit for my post, I remember now I read it in Charles Eisenstein's book:

The effects of Western technology, germs, and commerce typically precede the first anthropologists to even the most remote regions, initiating social breakdown. The same goes for non-humans. As primatologist Margaret Power demonstrates, the murderous behavior of chimpanzees in the wild, cited as evidence of our innate badness, emerges only in disturbed populations (which, strictly speaking, are the only ones accessible to researchers).xiii Specifically, the methods that researchers use reduce mobility and generate conflict.

When we see the warlike nature of primates and primitives, we may be seeing mostly our own shadow.

[Ibon]

When we see the warlike nature of primates and primitives, we may be seeing mostly our own shadow.

I highly recommend this book, Our Inner Ape by Franz De Waal

http://www.amazon.com/Our-Inner-Ape-Pri ... 1594481962

[jupiters_release]

I gave the book a shot, opened up to the preview pages, and ran into this non-starter on the first page:

"The best book ever written on the social life of apes in captivity...
The author has that special empathetic insight into the mind of the
chimpanzee which is shared by few but can somehow be recognized by
many."

-William McGrew, Human Ethology Newsletter

If I want to study apes in captivity I just have to turn on the TV or drive to my local mall, no need to go to Africa for that.

Fucking pathetic we pervert animal life, then use it to justify our own perversion.

[dohboi]

I'm reading a book called Fever: How a Hotter Planet Will Hurt Our Health... by Linda Marsa. In it there is a quote by a top CDC official noting that two or three Katrina-level events would totally overwhelm their ability to function.

When the CDC stops functioning (and probably well before), some pathogen (or many) will get by the then-broken detection/prevention/intervention system and we could have a very quick die off of major portions of the population world-wide.

[Ibon]

When the CDC stops functioning (and probably well before), some pathogen (or many) will get by the then-broken detection/prevention/intervention system and we could have a very quick die off of major portions of the population world-wide.

Then Jupiter will be happy because we wont have any more F ing perverts putting monkeys in cages.......

[dohboi]

This guy takes kind of a Greer approach to collapse--slow, relentlessly worsening conditions everywhere.

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014- ... the-waters

we have published much writing analysing the twin poles of Progress and Apocalypse which our civilisation is so hooked on. When we talk of the future, which we so often do, it is easy for us to cleave to one of these poles. Depending on our ideological bent, we find it very comfortable, and very easy, to see either a total collapse of society, or a Star Trek-like progress to the stars. It is easy to imagine that what we currently call progress will continue in the same direction, until everyone in the world is a car-driving consumer with a flight to the moon booked for their holiday. It is equally easy, and strangely comforting, to imagine everything falling apart in rapid period of time; a total and immediate collapse, from which there will be no recovery.

What is much harder – what seems almost impossible sometimes – is to imagine a gradual grinding down of our civilisation. What is harder it is to imagine another century of floods, with the waters rising higher every year. No apocalypse and no bases on Mars. No industrial collapse followed by a return to hunter gathering, and no Singularity either. Just a gradual, messy, winding-down of everything we once believed we were entitled to

[Ibon]

This guy takes kind of a Greer approach to collapse--slow, relentlessly worsening conditions everywhere.

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014- ... the-waters


What is much harder – what seems almost impossible sometimes – is to imagine a gradual grinding down of our civilisation. What is harder it is to imagine another century of floods, with the waters rising higher every year. No apocalypse and no bases on Mars. No industrial collapse followed by a return to hunter gathering, and no Singularity either. Just a gradual, messy, winding-down of everything we once believed we were entitled to

What kind of a vision is this slow gradual grinding winding down. The young emerging generation will not tolerate such a dreary outlook on their future. It is us older farts forecasting this BS prognosis. Not that I suddenly a cornucopian, I am just saying that every generation needs a vision to guide them, and one of a gradual grinding winding down aint going to cut it. They will agitate. To what? If the physical trend is a grinding winding down then the best option for a restless young generation is to ________________ Go ahead and feel free to fill in the blank.

[dohboi]

"The young emerging generation will not tolerate such a dreary outlook"

That's pretty much what most of them are already facing--low paying jobs, if you can even get one, with little or no chance of advancement. And us older folks are the ones mostly refusing to retire since our retirements took such a hit and our houses are all underwater or already foreclosed on.

Many of the brightest people I know of in their 20's to 30's are in exactly this situation and have pretty much given up hoping to get out of it. It just becomes the new normal.

Will this eventually lead to revolt, or just constant lowering of expectations?...who knows?

[Quinny]

Is PO not the Overshoot Predator?

[Ibon]

"The young emerging generation will not tolerate such a dreary outlook"

That's pretty much what most of them are already facing--low paying jobs, if you can even get one, with little or no chance of advancement.

Dohboi, how much of this is your interpretation of a "dreary outlook"

Here is where it really gets tough to separate our own generations interpretation of what is "dreary". Your right about the prospects of young people. But does this really leave the only option as dreary? Isn't the lack of economic opportunities forcing a reassesment on a high consumption life style which can no longer be afforded.

My two daughters and their peers are not responding to these lack of opportunities by getting dreary and resentful. They are slowly redefining their values, sharing stuff etc. This is not a temporary phenomenom. This is actually witnessing transition.

So, I have a frog specialist here at MTCF who brought along his 17 year old daughter. I read to her the piece you posted by Paul Kingsnorth and asked her to respond what she thinks about this guys perspective of the future. She ended taking this quite serious and when I came back from a walk she gave me a 3 page essay. I will post it here:


There is no black and white answer. It is all in the gray because it is an opinion. The technologies we have created are at a high point, but how much more is really possible in a decaying society. The answer... A lot

Like you said, in this slow grinding down of our civilization there are two poles. The progression of new technology every day, being one. The other, a sudden and abrupt halt. An Apocalypse. complete and utter (not to mention instant) ruin. Now, when you say that our civilization is slowly crumbling, it makes you think a little bit. I don't like being told that my future is going to be pretty grim and get worse as it goes on. I don't like being tld that I have limitations on what I can do with my future because eventually it wont be there. That's a pretty bleak outlook on life. You sound like Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh. I have told all my life what I cant do, and when I ask why, " Because I said so". So just because someone says that civilization is slowly grinding down and that there isn't much I , or anyone in my generation can do, doesn't mean I'm going to listen. I am going to say there IS something I can do about it, because no matter how bad things get, they can always get better. There is always something that can be done.

Put a little more simply, older people can be wise and know than my generation, but that knowledge is why they lack optimism because it discourages them. They have seen things and know stuff so they take that knowledge and apply it so situations like this. My generation though, we may not be wise or quite as knowledgable, but that is to our advantage. The lack of knowing what has happened in the past is good. We are not discouraged by things as easily because we dont know the likely outcome, so we are optimistic that the outcome will be good. Always being told that thing are slowly getting worse, not better, that things wont get better, does not discourage us. It makes us want to prove you wrong.

We want our generation to be better than the last no matter what the circumstances are. We want to leave our mark in history. Even in a slowly decaying society, we want to do better than our predecessors because there is always room for improvement. We wont allow ourselves to be told we can only do so good, we can only do so much. We are young. It is not like we are going to listen anyway. We set our standards
for ourselves and for our generation, not for you older people.

So the optimistic vision of my generation (in my opinion) is that we can do better. We can always turn something ugly into something breathtaking. The optimistic vision is that even in a slowly decaying civilization, some good can come out of it, and my generation will determine what this is

By 17 year old Sierra, February 23, MTCF.

So with that I have filled in the blank of my above post.

[PrestonSturges]

[Ibon]

Hi Preston

The graphic is nice and sometimes can speak a thousand words. Would be instructive however for you to add some words on how you see this image tying in with the current stream of posts......

[PrestonSturges]

We're just well dressed infants playing dress-up, but behind that facade there's the snarling enraged monkey at the steering wheel.

[dohboi]

And we're a bit pointy headed??

Ibon, it is super awesome (to use the not-quite-current vernacular) that your friend's daughter took it upon herself to read the essay and respond so thoughtfully to it. But many of the terms she uses are exactly the ones that need to be re-examined, and I can't tell from her use of them whether that process in taking place yet in her or not. When she talks about doing "better," for example, does she mean 'making even more money' or 'extracting even more resources' or on the other hand 'coming into better balance with the earth' or 'finding a deeper level of happiness.'

I'm not surprised that she wasn't specific about these things--most aren't even aware that such open-ended terms are in fact open ended and subject to an endless array of interpretations. I know because I regularly teach writing to students this age, and they (as well as those much older) have to be badgered a bit into getting specific at that level. But I would be more than happy to get such an essay as a first draft (or even second or third) in any class.

Anyway, I am honored that you found an article I linked to be worthy to share with others. I hope that it and others prompt insights, reactions, and discoveries by young and old that are far beyond what my crabbed narrow peep-hole view can envision or imagine.

[Pops]

The young ladie's ideas are a perfect example of why I am an optimistic doomer: it's not that doom can't or won't happen, it's bound to happen, the point is, H. S. Sapien's niche, his primary adaptation is adaptation.

We want our generation to be better than the last no matter what the circumstances are. We want to leave our mark in history.

How great is that?

"You sound like Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh. "
I concur, the average doomer does sound like Eeyore! I've said it before:

PO.com would certainly vote unanimously for Eeyore's platform:
1. it's no use
2. won't work
3. they're all the same

Even worse in fact, at least Eeyore accepted his lot in life but the average doomer whines "why me?" and repeats over and over, "We're all gonna die!"

Back in the day there were lots of "Sarah Connor" threads on PO.com along the lines of "what to tell kids" or "how to prepare your kids" but we have none of that any more. Too bad. We've become a club of over the hill commuters commiserating the impending loss of our lifestyle. So intent on the tangibles we stand to lose that we never talk about how to help our children gain the intangibles they'll need, like this young fighter's determination.

Ibon, tell the lady she has a fan!
.

[dohboi]

I'm not sure to which 'doomers' you intend to refer.

I will just say that, for most, anyone who doesn't tow the techno-optimists' line is generally labeled doomer or worse, and they/we are assumed to spend our time sitting around moping about our sorry lot.

This is an enormous and largely erroneous assumption.

I won't bore you with the litany of activities I have been or am involved in at every level--from personal and family, to workplace, neighborhood, school, municipal, state...on up. Because one is not afraid to look at the grimmest realities that we face does not mean that one is not doing anything to minimize the future horrors.

My own (perhaps unfair?) assumption (though based on long observation) is that most optimists are the ones least likely to be working hard to minimize their own negative impact on the situation, and least likely to be working hard to increase the resilience of their immediate and broader environs.