[Ibon]

I was a passenger in a car driving in Florida recently. There is this beetle they call love bugs that fly while mating and bloom in such numbers in the late summer that motorists need to run their windshield wipers to clean off the smashed bodies of these mating bugs from their windshields.

Cars smashing mating bugs at this moment in time when overpopulated humans are about to be smashed by our irresponsible use of fossil fuels seemed oddly prophetic. It was just an image that haunted me for days afterwards like some Gaia spirit whispering in my ear telling me.... "this will soon be the fate of you and your fellow humans" This thought was not sad but rather joyful.

[SeaGypsy]

Brings up some weird relativisms here in Oz. We get the bug plagues in the tropics like you describe, we also get plagues of introduced toads which can weigh up to a kilo and be in such numbers as to be unavoidable on the roads. On the other hand there is a horrid side to it also when it's kangaroo & other marsupials breeding season and they are getting smashed by the thousands every night.

[Newfie]

I have this idea that we are. Born with a predilection to some emotions that help the hive survive. These are emotions we generally value such as bravery, compassion, and sympathy. There seems to be some biological basis in this idea.

One of the signs of maturity, or self awareness is to be able to allow these emotions wot well up so that we can experience them, without going into action on them. To be able to observe them within ourselves and say "oh, so this is what patriotism feels like. Interesting." The more or self aware person can tolerate the emotion without going into action, without enlisting.

What I observe our culture, with the all volunteer armed forces, is that the ads are aimed directly at stimulating those emotions and getting folks to join up.

But that means we are tending toward developing and armed forces that are more and more with folks who feel strongly, but who lack the emotional skill to recognize these feelings for what they are, feelings. They are not ultimatums from God nor are they manifestations of what is right and wrong.

We are developing a militarized group who have been selected for strong emotions and for a predilection to act upon them. That starts to sound like a pretty bad idea.

On the other hand from an evolutionary point of view it makes a lot of sense. If your group is going to have to compete with adjacent groups, then you want a strong army who are motivated and willing to sacrifice their lives for the greater good.

I wonder if that is what we are doing? Preparing ourselves for war?

Preparing the Overshoot Predator?

[Ibon]

I wonder if that is what we are doing? Preparing ourselves for war?

Preparing the Overshoot Predator?

http://www.deltacollege.edu/org/deltawi ... levil.html

I read about an experiment where two rats were put into a cage and allowed to reproduce freely. At first they got along fine. That soon changed. The number of rats multiplied but they remained in the original cage. As their numbers increased, they started to exhibit anti-social behavior. The outcome of overcrowding is the same with humans. The less space people have to live in, the harder it is for them to get along. As people compete, not only for space but also for food, water and air, the more hostile their behavior becomes. Crime, and a lack of respect for other people, becomes more common as personal space is reduced. Violence is more prevalent in highly populated areas, as are other forms of criminal behavior. This is probably due to aggression and anxiety brought on by a lack of personal space.

Lebensraum.

[dohboi]

Happy NY, Ibon! Maybe this will be the year the OSP finally shows up and we can all do him/her proper homage?

IIRC, we had a nice exchange of view-point-clarifying posts recently that seem to have disappeared. Do you know where they went?

ETA: Never mind, I figured out that was on another thread.

[dohboi]

Ibon, this interchange reminds me a bit of the kinds of discussions we have here about the different strategies going forward.

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014- ... u-wish-for

This is Hopkins, the Transition Town guru, responding to permaculture guru Holmgren's:

http://simplicityinstitute.org/wp-conte ... ute13c.pdf

(24 page pdf)

Basically, Homgren is advocating a strategy where by a good chunk of the global middle class voluntarily and rather suddenly withdraw their participation in the economic life of the globe, in order to intentionally bring about an economic collapse. Hopkins thinks this is both too extreme, is unrealistic as a goal, and is impractical and unethical as a strategy.

It's interesting to me to see such influential voices struggling over some of the same themes we've been tussling with on these threads.

[Ibon]

For those interested watch this video

http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/how ... Y.facebook

The trophic cascade that resulted from the re introduction of wolves in Yellowstone is very very relevant to this thread. What happens when a species (deer) in overshoot are brought back in balance with the reintroduction of a predator.

Apply this to Kudzu Ape and understand why a predator merits "worship"

[sparky]

.
Why get all excited , we are not some super predator , we are mushrooms
don't glory us with any evil power , it's all pretty basic

growth conditions are good , we grow
growth condition hit a limit , we don't grow

there is an overshoot factor , something I call the "Wiley coyote " factor
in our pursuit of happiness ( the mythical roadrunner )
we go over the cliff , the harder we chase , the further off the cliff face we go

there is this moment when we look down , flap our arms , then the universal law exert itself

.........downward

[Ibon]

.
Why get all excited , we are not some super predator , we are mushrooms

I wasn't thinking exactly mushroom but the video provoked an insight.

With overpopulation and overdependency on fossil fuels modern humans, within the past couple of generations, have created a situation where we have gone from top predator to vulnerable prey.

Top predators like wolves are small in number but exert a big influence on prey populations. Such were our human ancestors. As we have become more and more dependent on modern industrial civilization we have switched from low population top predator to huge population potential prey vulnerable to the Overshoot predator, be it potential pathogens, famine, environmental calamity, etc.

Ask yourself when watching that video. Do humans resemble more the wolf or the deer?

I think this is a profound sacrifice modern humans have made giving up their status as top predators. In exchange for the dependency we all have on modern industrial civilization.

We have become like mice.

A huge collective reversal of roles in our local environments, from noble to meek. I scan the horizon and see the collective resembling the look of the mouse as the rattlesnake is about to strike.

[dohboi]

I remember reading some place a while ago that human flesh has become the largest uniform food source in the world by mass (though I would think that that of cattle should come close--about 1.3 billion of them, each weighing 600 pounds and up).

Nature abhors an unexploited food source even more than she does a vacuum.

[Ibon]

Apparently alpha lions will kill other male's offsprings during famines. But they don't eat the kittens. That would be yuckky.

We will be eating our kittens. Read my tag line.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Apparently alpha lions will kill other male's offsprings during famines. But they don't eat the kittens. That would be yuckky. Only psychos eat people.

Unless I am missing something, you have no idea what you are talking about.

When a male lion takes over a pride from another male lion the FIRST thing it does is kill any baby lions. This brings the females back into fertility, and lets the lion produce its own genetic offspring. (Obviously this is instinct, but it is no less horrific to watch, despite this).

It's an amazingly sad/tragic thing to see the baby lions, as they realize their fate, try to run away, and even fight. The male is merciless, however -- it merely inflicts a lethal bite on the baby (after massive mauling, as needed).

And the famales, who would often fight a predator to the death for the babies? They seem to instinctively realize what is occurring, and merely lie down and watch.

My source: Nova quality documentaries on the African Savannah, emphasizing the life cycle of lions.

Nice discussion -- but you probably should do some actual research before you opine.

[Ibon]

Nature abhors an unexploited food source even more than she does a vacuum.

It is poetry and karma at its purest when one day a pathogen will exploit us in the same way as we did fossil fuels.

How does it feel to be an unexploited bonanza?

We mine, so we will be mined.

Do unto others and all that jazz.

[Newfie]

Ibon,
I heard the same or similar piece and had similar thoughts.

What is somewhat amazing to me is that the researcher himself did not make more of a connection. It just kinda jumps out at you if you let it.

Either he is very narrowly focused ( probable) or he is keeping though thoughts to himself.

I think I hear that kind of disconnect a lot.

[sparky]

.
On predator family instincts
the part about making a genetic clean slate is correct ,
but if young males grow up they are chased by their fathers and killed if they do not clear up fast and far
the young females remain undisturbed
in a pride of lions all the females are mothers sisters , daughters , aunts or cousin
packs of young males roam the countryside , barely surviving
if they grow strong enough , they will challenge the older males in a pride , fighting to the death to take over
the youngs are killed and the cycle continue

Bears and tigers are lone predators , they eat any young they find , even their own
they chase away the females unless there is some loving mood in the air
it make sense , no competition , the exception is if there is plenty to eat , such as garbage tips and salmon run

[jupiters_release]

Apparently alpha lions will kill other male's offsprings during famines. But they don't eat the kittens. That would be yuckky. Only psychos eat people.

Unless I am missing something, you have no idea what you are talking about.

When a male lion takes over a pride from another male lion the FIRST thing it does is kill any baby lions. This brings the females back into fertility, and lets the lion produce its own genetic offspring. (Obviously this is instinct, but it is no less horrific to watch, despite this).

It's an amazingly sad/tragic thing to see the baby lions, as they realize their fate, try to run away, and even fight. The male is merciless, however -- it merely inflicts a lethal bite on the baby (after massive mauling, as needed).

And the famales, who would often fight a predator to the death for the babies? They seem to instinctively realize what is occurring, and merely lie down and watch.

My source: Nova quality documentaries on the African Savannah, emphasizing the life cycle of lions.

Nice discussion -- but you probably should do some actual research before you opine.

I'm sure I've seen this Nova many years ago.

Did they ever mention loss of habitat from human encroachment in relation to frequency of observation of lions killing other offspring?

It's well documented the first western 'anthropologists' in the Amazon described indigenous tribes as violent and warlike in order to justify the genocide and ecocide the western invasion brought prior to the 'anthropologists' own arrival. The irony being they only became violent in defense of the destruction of their homes, families, community, and environment.

I would confidently assume prior to loss of habitat, which almost certainly preceded nearly all scientific observation of lion behavior, the killing of offspring would've been a very rare occurrence.

I just realized the 'revelations' of Jane Goodall's research of chimps engaging in war cannot ever be separate from the fact their "natural habitat" was a goddamn PARK. We humans are so 'civilized' living in cities or better yet 'rural' folk elated with a home fenced in on two acres and an organic garden that no one ever even considered however many square miles of an isolated PARK or national PRESERVE can induce insanity in mammals that were never restricted on any remotely similar magnitude prior to human perversion.