[Tanada]

I know the cost of a high pressure tank for your garage big enough to fill one car a day is not that large, the question that arises is what does it cost in power to run the low speed constant compressor to top off your in garage tank after you fill your vehicle? A tank large enough to fill one vehicle a day is not that big, and unless you do some extraordinary length commuting you will not need to fill up more than once every 4 or 5 days. Even a household with three SUV's would be able to top them off in turn as the in garage tank is recharged constantly by the compressor. Jr. fills up his ride Friday night, Mom does hers Saturday afternoon when she gets home from shopping and Dad fills his Monday morning before his first commute of the week. By Tuesday morning the in garage tank is refilled and ready to fill Mom or Jr. back up for the rest of their week.

It might not be as convenient as stopping at any given filling station, but it certainly is not all that difficult either.

[TheDude]

Here is on on EBay cheap for $10,000. New $33,000

Link

The Phill retailed for something like $3.5k. Now that the company's been bought out they're going for a premium: Cng Fuelmaker Model Phill , In Box, Never Installed, $6,499.

pstarr - I'll call up my local CNG dealer to find out what the installation costs were in total - no doubt a lot more was involved beyond the base price of the compressor itself, i.e., meeting EPA regs.

Amusingly enough now I see that most of the CNG outlets in my area are "private access only" - keylock outfits for commercial vehicles perhaps? And one of the two (only 16.4 miles away!) that is apparently open to the public at large is out of commission...beginning to see why these things are only a niche in two states.

There are other issues with mass production of CNGs that need addressed as well, supplying enough kevlar for the gas tanks for instance. People still have a conception of CNGs as "high speed bombs."

Found a whole forum dedicated to the Honda Civic GX (natural gas) and other CNG issues at Edwards car Space. Will be perusing there to learn more.

Well put, Mos. In the end I see us driving around town in lead acid battery powered golf carts, if 4 wheeled personal mobility carries on. There's a whole panoply of factors mitigating against switching over to alternate fuels ahead of the curve.

[TheDude]

Long-Term Test: 2007 Honda Civic GX

Even with an EPA rating of 28 mpg city/39 mpg highway, the GX's driving range is just over 200 miles (and our testing so far has shown that the range is highly variable).

Gets better and better.

[Tanada]

Long-Term Test: 2007 Honda Civic GX

Even with an EPA rating of 28 mpg city/39 mpg highway, the GX's driving range is just over 200 miles (and our testing so far has shown that the range is highly variable).

Gets better and better.

And the proportion of the population commuting more than 100 miles each way to work on any given day is what exactly?

I don't beleive any single solution will make everything wine and roses instead of whine and thorns, but some options are very doable for a portion of the population each.

[americandream]

I think its evident to all but the most mentally challenged that a variety of remedies will be used as we slide into that final frontier of resource burnout. An awful lot of exceedingly well fed individuals have an awful lot at stake in prolonging our way of life and they aren't going to walk away if there are alternatives available, dirty or clean. That ain't rocket science.

What gets my goat are these doofuses making out like these short term measures will save us from that final lemming jump into resource oblivion. That confuses an already misled peon!

The message that needs to be seeping into the deepest cranial recesses of suburbia is that the numbers up UNLESS we radically alter our appetites and the MSM aren't going to do that.

It will have to be a ground up effort.This is too important. We need to be doing everything possible to dash the green shoots of hope. Hope is a dangerous bitch. She feeds unreasonable expectations and nurtures unreal ambitions. Our way of life CANNOT be emulated by the third world nor can WE afford it any longer.

[copious.abundance]

Doesn't seem to bother 1 million CNG car owners in Brazil, 1.7 million CNG car owners in Argentina, about the same number in Pakistan, 800K in Europe, 600K in Iran, etc.
http://www.cngnow.com/EN-US/Vehicles/Pa ... World.aspx

I can go almost 400 miles with a full tank in my Focus. So this CNG Civic would be the equivalent of having to fill up every 1/2 tank.

Wow, we must be doomed!! God forbid we be inconvenienced by having to fill up every 200 miles instead of every 400 miles!

Long-Term Test: 2007 Honda Civic GX

Even with an EPA rating of 28 mpg city/39 mpg highway, the GX's driving range is just over 200 miles (and our testing so far has shown that the range is highly variable).

Gets better and better.

[americandream]

I have to reluctantly admit OF2, you are quite stupid! You still haven't got my point and frankly I'm done trying to explain basic resourcing facts within a finite earthly paradigm, to you.

Go drive your car mate along with the 6 billion other sheep and good fcukkin luck to your spawn.

[copious.abundance]

I have to reluctantly admit OF2, you are quite stupid! You still haven't got my point and frankly I'm done trying to explain basic resourcing facts within a finite earthly paradigm, to you.

Go drive your car mate along with the 6 billion other sheep and good fcukkin luck to your spawn.

On the contrary americandream, I understand you quite well. If you want to live a back-to-nature existence, no one is stopping you. Go join these folks if you will.



But not everyone wants to do that. If you insist on a more philosophical bent to this discussion, I have already addressed the topic here:
>>> Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we shall all die. <<<

Otherwise, let's not ruin Graeme's thread any more than we already have.

[americandream]

No you DON'T understand what I'm on about. You keep talking about tanking up your vehicle when I'm talking about resourcing the whole kit and caboodle, as it spreads like a cancer across the entire human race.

AGW. Resource depletion. Wars. Misery. You ain't seen nothing yet pal. And you probably wont. Your kids or grandkids will pick up the tab for your stupidity, for stupid you are. And regress into some primeval barbarism they will, guaranteed, as long as domkops like you prevail.

[copious.abundance]

americandream, no I don't think you read it. Read my first post in this thread:

>>> Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we shall all die <<<

In the shorter term, everything you complained about, someone has been predicting will happen for . . . decades. Maybe centuries. I'm still waiting.

[americandream]

americandream, no I don't think you read it. Read my first post in this thread:

>>> Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we shall all die <<<

In the shorter term, everything you complained about, someone has been predicting will happen for . . . decades. Maybe centuries. I'm still waiting.

Lets not do a sub-prime derivatives type lawyer fast one on here with a plethora of misleading details when the issue, as regards wonder boy Graeme and more latterly you is quite simple:

1 Where are we going to get the resources, renewable or otherwise to accommodate the 6 billion potentialed CONTEMPORARY and GROWING growth oriented paradigm without plundering the earth;

2 How are we going to mitigate AGW consequent on 6 billion scouring and plundering the surface in furtherance of the contemporary paradigm around which this eco-sphere functions in friendly human mode (I see no 6 billion capable freebies, (clean or otherwise) in the wings waiting to be extracted out of fresh air..do you?).

Wheres the technology sunny jimbo? Show me the clean 6 billion viable, sustainably resourced, capitalism sitting in the wings it would seem, listening to you blather on. I don't want more wind bagging on about this or that Dutch boy fix. Where is the COMPOSITE remedy.

I'm telling you, you know bugger all and am calling you out for the charlatan you are.

In one link and a few sentences, address the COMPOSITE picture or STFU.

[TheDude]

And the proportion of the population commuting more than 100 miles each way to work on any given day is what exactly?

From an October 2003 sampling of 1978 people:



From BTS | OmniStats. Note the stats regarding "Stretch Commute"I linked to for OF2's benefit. Some of those people travelling >35 miles to work are driving ca. 100 miles. Many people where I live commute over 50 miles to Portland, and as I said there seems to be a paucity of CNG stations around here.

I pointed out the variability in fuel available as simply another minus that will deter potential buyers. This makes relying on CNG even more dicey.

Another reason for limited application of CNG/LNG in the US is that we have very exacting standards regarding safety, witness the recent bus explosion in China. This adds to the premium involved in buying, of course; the comments in the Honda Civic GX (natural gas) forum aren't surprising me at all, people want to buy these but their options are greatly limited by the system as it is.

I don't need any more of these global stats, OF2, I know that CNG autos work and are employed elsewhere, I'm calling into question their widespread acceptance in the US before shortages of oil cause a rush to buy them, emptying storerooms in an instant, the sort of simple 3 body arithmetic you seem steadfastly incapable of employing/understanding. Scooter stores in my locale were wholly out of stock last summer owing to the fuel spike; things were back to normal in the spring; no doubt they are getting more customers again. People don't look forward that much in this country.

[americandream]

To all ye reading this thread, here we see Hope in all her glory.

The hope that we, all of us humans,will, by some miraculous and transforming power of technology (amen), be able to:

shop till we drop, 24/7, in malls from Timbuktu to Tokyo,

driving blissfully through acres of all night fast foods,

and otherwise shit and piss on this planet, cleanly and with no consequences on its eco-sphere which just so happens to be nice and toasty human friendly. Aaah. Hope.

She be seductive alright.

[copious.abundance]

1 Where are we going to get the resources, renewable or otherwise to accommodate the 6 billion potentialed CONTEMPORARY and GROWING growth oriented paradigm without plundering the earth;

americandream, your question cannot be answered in one reply. I could point you to the estimated 250-1,500 Tcf of recoverable natural gas in the Haynesville shale, the ~850 Tcf total natural gas in the Woodford shale, and the 363 - 1,307 Tcf of recoverable natural gas in the Marcellus shale. I could also tell you about the estimated 311 billion - 1.75 trillion boe in Turkmentisan. I could also point you to the soon-to-be-developed 600 billion barrels of oil shale in Morrocco (or 80-180 billion barrels, depending on how you look at it). Or, I could tell you about the 100 billion barrels or so of recoverable oil in Brazil's Santos Basin. I could furthermore tell you about the 60 billion barrels or so in the waters around the Falkland Islands. If I were still ambitious I could tell you about the 1.2 trillion barrels of oil in the Venezuelan oil sands and the 2.2 trillion barrels in the Canadian tar sands. And so on, and so forth.

Oh no, wait a minute - I *have* already tried to tell everyone about all this. But whenever I do, nobody (except me, shortonsense, Anti-Doomer and Maddog) seem to believe it.

Can't say I didn't try. *shrugs*

If you consider that "plundering the earth," then all can say is, "Can't please everybody." *shrugs again*

[Graeme]

americandream, no I don't think you read it. Read my first post in this thread:

>>> Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we shall all die <<<

In the shorter term, everything you complained about, someone has been predicting will happen for . . . decades. Maybe centuries. I'm still waiting.

Lets not do a sub-prime derivatives type lawyer fast one on here with a plethora of misleading details when the issue, as regards wonder boy Graeme and more latterly you is quite simple:

1 Where are we going to get the resources, renewable or otherwise to accommodate the 6 billion potentialed CONTEMPORARY and GROWING growth oriented paradigm without plundering the earth;

2 How are we going to mitigate AGW consequent on 6 billion scouring and plundering the surface in furtherance of the contemporary paradigm around which this eco-sphere functions in friendly human mode (I see no 6 billion capable freebies, (clean or otherwise) in the wings waiting to be extracted out of fresh air..do you?).

Wheres the technology sunny jimbo? Show me the clean 6 billion viable, sustainably resourced, capitalism sitting in the wings it would seem, listening to you blather on. I don't want more wind bagging on about this or that Dutch boy fix. Where is the COMPOSITE remedy.

I'm telling you, you know bugger all and am calling you out for the charlatan you are.

In one link and a few sentences, address the COMPOSITE picture or STFU.

These are fair questions, Americandream. Based on what I've read since I've been posting here, I can offer only partial solutions. This is my own assessment which may be wrong.

1. In the short to medium term (2 to 3 decades), we can survive with our "conventional" energy resourses, i.e. fossil fuels plus small but growing amount of renewable energy. In the long term, we will have to use an unconventional source like fusion or space-based solar power to satisfy our energy needs as well. Whether the latter will succeed or not, we'll have to wait and see. However, there may be ground-based resources like enhanced geothermal and solar that may satisfy a substantial portion our energy needs. Research and development is still continuing in these areas. For example, unexpected news announcements like this one, can change the outlook for solar overnight.

2. We will need to have the Copenhagen Protocol especially signed by USA and China later this year. But further out, some technologies have to be developed to remove CO2 from the atmosphere. A lot of these have been talked about and some have been described in the climate change news thread but none have yet been implemented. I will be continuing to look for developments in geoengineering.

There are very real reasons to be concerned about our future but at this stage there is no point in panicking. There are many outstanding professionals working on the above problems. I'm merely reporting developments when find them. Please calm down.

[americandream]

Aaahh. OK we got the oil nailed or so it seems. Never mind all the other shit that goes into my trendy lady pulling downtown apartment upwind from mall utopia. We got the oil. Lots of it it seems

Now hows about the AGW from all the shit we're, 6 billion of us, gunna put out from that oil. Hey! Never mind. Mebbe some nice person will invent us out of a fcukked up earth. On the other hand, this AGW stuffs all a commie plot, innit?

[americandream]

You know what pisses me off about dudes like you Graeme. You presume to tell me how to feel about my home planet being fcukked up by doofuses like you. Don't.

You buggers haven't a fuckin clue other than to live in hope and peddle that hope to people who are best told the truth. 6 billion strong capitalism cannot go into a finite planet. And before you go day dreaming about space travel, read up on space junk and use your noggin.

We in the West need to get out of cornucopia fast. And in the process we should be hauling our asses out of China and India as well.

[copious.abundance]

Aaahh. OK we got the oil nailed or so it seems. Never mind all the other shit that goes into my trendy lady pulling downtown apartment upwind from mall utopia. We got the oil. Lots of it it seems

Now hows about the AGW from all the shit we're, 6 billion of us, gunna put out from that oil. Hey! Never mind. Mebbe some nice person will invent us out of a fcukked up earth. On the other hand, this AGW stuffs all a commie plot, innit?

Well, lest you think all I've been doing is informing people here about "dirty" energy, I remind you I've also tried to tell people here about wondrous new developments in lithium battery technology (more) coupled with large lithium deposits in Nevada. I've tried to tell people here about nifty new solar technologies coupled with a mad rush to build solar power plants in the Mojave Desert. But, alas, whenever I try to do that I get told that installed solar power is insufficient to maintain installed solar power. So no matter what I say, people here don't believe me.

*shrugs*