[Plantagenet]

It sure sounds like a good idea to me. Taxing carbon and cutting other taxes is a win-win deal.

Even some Rs are supporting the carbon tax initiative. Maybe it will even pass, in spite of the D party opposition!

growing-camp-republicans-endorsing-732

[ROCKMAN]

"...so they propose to offset this with other tax cuts to reduce the impact of the carbon tax on the poor." And, pray tell, how do you cut the income taxes on a group that typically pay littlevor no income taxes? And if it's sales taxes how much money are the poor going to save given that being poor doesn't allow much purchases and thus not much sales taxes paid?

And why would the politicians of the 5th largest producer of refinery products in the US oppose a tax that would, in theory, reduce the revenue of one of its largest employers and the tax revenue that industry generates?

Of did you mean Washington DC and just got sloppy? LOL. BTW since most Washington state politicians, especially those in Congress, are Democrats I wonder how strongly they would support a carbon tax?

[regardingpo]

Did anybody else even bother to read Greers article on CC? Its the first link in the first post of thread.

#1. Greer's article makes it very clear that he is not a CC denier.

#2. The criticisms in his post are not directed at "you morons" but rather at politicians and the leaders of the anti-CC movement, and their failure in Paris to enact a UN climate treaty that actually does anything about CC.

#2. Greer lists reasons why CC activism is failing. Or CC movement, whatever, he uses both terms. By the tone of his writing he may as well have called them morons, but I guess that's open to interpretation.

#1. While he does believe CC is happening (and therefore is not a plain denier), he doesn't count himself as part of the CC movement so he doesn't blame himself for the movement's failings. "This is why YOU/THEY are failing, not WE."

We're just having fun in this topic spinning conspiracy theories about him lol.

[peripato]

There's something off about Greer for sure, but I have a simpler explanation - he actually wants to see climate change happen. He wants this civilization to collapse to be exact, CC is just a means to an end. That's why he writes these articles with such joy.

I could be confusing him with Kunstler, though.

What does it matter what Greer wants, secretly or not? Doesn't change the facts, nor that we're doing sweet F.A. about it.

And exactly what is it about this civilisation that's worth saving anyway, since it's doing a bang up job of sending every man and his dog to an early grave, all for the sake of money?

[ennui2]

"...so they propose to offset this with other tax cuts to reduce the impact of the carbon tax on the poor." And, pray tell, how do you cut the income taxes on a group that typically pay littlevor no income taxes? And if it's sales taxes how much money are the poor going to save given that being poor doesn't allow much purchases and thus not much sales taxes paid?

And why would the politicians of the 5th largest producer of refinery products in the US oppose a tax that would, in theory, reduce the revenue of one of its largest employers and the tax revenue that industry generates?

Of did you mean Washington DC and just got sloppy? LOL. BTW since most Washington state politicians, especially those in Congress, are Democrats I wonder how strongly they would support a carbon tax?

Rockman, your career revolves around fossil fuel extraction. Do you really think anyone's going to take your opinions on environmental policy seriously?

[dohboi]

And plant has pretty clearly shown himself a fervent repug party loyalist, so it's pretty hard to take anything that he says about the dems very seriously, either.

[ennui2]

Yeah, Planty simultaneously supporting the republicans AND professing to give a shit about AGW is some hardcore cognitive dissonance. Wasn't it KJ or was it Cog that has tried to prove the point that the democrats are somehow the enemy of minorities? That's kind of Planty's schtick, to try to invert common-wisdom about where a group stands ideologically. Doesn't pass the shit-test, though. While the dems haven't done enough, the republicans are far worse, with their "abolish the EPA" and "bring back coal jobs" mantras. Anyone who looks to them to solve this problem has a screw loose.

It would be better if we didn't have to choose between the lesser of two evils but spending all your time maligning the lesser rather than the greater evil is really counter-productive. I understand some people get off on finding perceived hypocrisy or [fill in the blank]-in-name-only-ism. That whole "I caught your hand in the cookie jar!" high. It's not very useful, though.

[Plantagenet]

.... give a shit about AGW

Just because you are mentally constipated don't assume everyone else is.

Why not face facts? ---Scientific opinion is pretty much unanimous that Obama's Paris Accords treaty limiting global temperature increases to 2°C is a sham and a fraud.

Unfortunately, Its pretty clear by now that you don't understand the science on AGW and especially don't understand that scientists have shown the Paris Accords are sham.

paris-deal-far-too-weak-to-prevent-devastating-climate-change-scientists-warn

cheers!

[ennui2]

Why not face facts?

Sure, the facts that show that the republicans have put denialism and anti-regulation at the center of its platform.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronom ... ality.html

They've elected a guy who is even more of a fossil fuel stooge than your old buddy Sarah Palin.

And weren't you a Bernie supporter at one time? You've gone from supporting a socialist back to the bosom of the republican party? Nice one.

cheers!

[Plantagenet]

"...so they propose to offset this with other tax cuts to reduce the impact of the carbon tax on the poor." And, pray tell, how do you cut the income taxes on a group that typically pay littlevor no income taxes?

There is no income tax in washington state.

And if it's sales taxes how much money are the poor going to save given that being poor doesn't allow much purchases and thus not much sales taxes paid?

Obviously they'll save some part of the sales tax they pay if sales taxes are cut. How hard is that to understand?

And why would the politicians of the 5th largest producer of refinery products in the US oppose a tax that would, in theory, reduce the revenue of one of its largest employers and the tax revenue that industry generates?

In theory the Ds oppose climate change.

did you mean Washington DC and just got sloppy? LOL.

Did you fail to understand that this is an initiative in Washington State or did you just get sloppy?

Really, Rockman. Your posts are normally much much better than this. I expect better from you in the future.

Cheers!

[Plantagenet]

weren't you a Bernie supporter at one time? You've gone from supporting a socialist back to the bosom of the republican party?

Why do you lie so much?

Now that Bernie has chosen to make common cause with the corporate beast I'm supporting Jill Stein.


cheers!

[ennui2]

Why do you lie so much?

I'm not lying.

Now that Bernie has chosen to make common cause with the corporate beast I'm supporting Jill Stein.

Ah, but you remain a closet Republican, despite the fact that the R's are bought and paid for by big business.

You have no ability to evaluate your own party, man. Get a grip.

[Plantagenet]

I'm not lying.

Yes you are lying.

And now you're back to your nutty Sarah Palin obsession.

Wow. You are like so bizarre.

Thanks for the morning laugh.

Cheers!

[ennui2]

Yes you are lying.

About what?

And now you're back to your nutty Sarah Palin obsession.

Not mine, your aversion to copping to your past support, that's all.

Thanks for the morning laugh.

In other words, you've got no rebuttal to make to my points.

[dohboi]

Wow, it seems to be getting more difficult for threads here to stay on topic.

Can we have one segment of hell, errrr, of the hall of flames where all those who wish to shout about partizan politics will be free to flail about all they want, on the condition that they don't muck up other threads with it?

[ROCKMAN]

T - "Obviously they'll save some part of the sales tax they pay if sales taxes are cut. How hard is that to understand?". Since poor people dfon't buy a lot because they are poor there's ververry little they'll save on sale taxes. Is that hard to understand? LOL.

And yes I was a bit confused because the conversation seemed to become a bit convoluted and it was difficult at times to understand some positions.

And BTW: if the folks hauling the stuff that the poor buy see their cost go up because of a carbon tax they will raise their fees to the businesses they service that will, in turn, feel the pressure to raise the prices for everyone...including the poor.

It really doesn't matter how the details of a carbon taxes settle out: if the cost of energy, for whatever reason, increases all energy consumers are going to be negatively affected to some degree. And politicians will do whatever they can to hide that fact from the voters.

[Plantagenet]

yes I was a bit confused because the conversation seemed to become a bit convoluted and it was difficult at times to understand some positions.

No problemo. Everybody has an off day now and then.

And BTW: if the folks hauling the stuff that the poor buy see their cost go up because of a carbon tax they will raise their fees to the businesses they service that will, in turn, feel the pressure to raise the prices for everyone...including the poor.

of course. Thats why the authors of the washington state carbon tax initiative include tax cuts and various transfer payments designed to offset the effects on the carbon tax on the poor etc. Check out their website---they discuss this whole problem and their approach in depth. Its probably not a perfect fix, but your concerns are being addressed to the best degree the initiative authors could manage.

Cheers!

[dohboi]

"Since poor people don't buy a lot because they are poor there's ververry little they'll save on sale taxes."

???

But since their poor, that little amount of money means a lot to them.

Am I missing something?

[ennui2]

Hey Planty....

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... hange-deal

[Plantagenet]

Hey eenie

This kind of thing is exactly why climate change opponents are failing.

First we had obama in 2009 diverting the UN climate treaty process from the path it had been on for 30 years to craft a binding treaty to reduce CO2 emissions to a new effort to craft a voluntary treaty that sets a limit of 2°C on how much the earth can warm but puts no mandatory limits on CO2 emissions.

Now today we have Obama personally "ratifying" the treaty--something that is unconstitutional, by the way-----and then boasting that he is saving the world:

I believe the Paris agreement will ultimately prove to be a turning point for our planet, I believe that history will judge today’s efforts as pivotal,” said Obama

The Paris agreement is indeed pivotal----it marks the success of Obama's program to divert the UN from its effort to set firm limits on global CO2 emissions. Today's signing is a turning point---this is the moment it becomes inevitable that CO2 emissions will go for decades to come, with catastrophic results for the earth's climate.

Cheers!