[Newfie]

Another one of our many conundrums. But I don't know how you blame one party more than the other.

[dohboi]

"Dohboi can't accept that the population must decrease"

That is not my position, but thank you very much for putting words in my mouth. I'll have to return the favor someday!

Sooo, sub, you think it's NOT possible to make things even worse??

[Subjectivist]

Sooo, sub, you think it's NOT possible to make things even worse??

I believe that nothing you or I do or say is going to make a dimes worth of difference in the depth of global warming and we should be focusing our efforts on survve and thrve instead of spinning our wheels in meaningless debates that ultimately have no influence on the course of events.

Global warming advocates have been yelling at the top of their lungs for going on thirty years now. Things have not improved or even slowed down, they have accellerated. Clearly a different tactic is needed because the attempts so far have been worse than failures. Things are getting worse faster than ever so its time to stop planning the victory over billions f consumers who refuse to stop consuming.

Yes, there is no worse. The world is aimed to burn all that is burnable so complaining about it is pure wasted effort that can be better used helping ecosystems adapt to the new climate we are heading into.

[dohboi]

Isn't it wonderful to have positions that relieve one of any sense of responsibility.

Then one can just wallow in the obliviousness otherwise enjoyed only by the select few other groups in society who are generally held to be free of responsibility for their actions--very small children and imbeciles!

[Newfie]

"Dohboi can't accept that the population must decrease"

That is not my position, but thank you very much for putting words in my mouth. I'll have to return the favor someday!

Sooo, sub, you think it's NOT possible to make things even worse??

I stand corrected.

Do you have some suggested method on how to make that happen? How to sort it all out? I a reasonable time frame? I know we've argued the female empowerment POV but I think we came to agreement it wasn't fast enough?

[Newfie]

Another one of our many conumxrums. But I don't know how you blame one party more than the other.

I think I answered that above. Republicans do not accept the the commonweal, have a religious belief in the brilliance of free market. They hate government, try to destroy it. Perhaps have already succeeded

I see no effective difference between Ds and Rs in this regard. Rs are more upfront about their agenda, I see Ds as mouthing nice words but not really dining anything.

BOTH sides are pro Growth. From my perspective that is deadly.

[Newfie]

Isn't it wonderful to have positions that relieve one of any sense of responsibility.

Then one can just wallow in the obliviousness otherwise enjoyed only by the select few other groups in society who are generally held to be free of responsibility for their actions--very small children and imbeciles!

OK, you have the floor. What is the answer? How are you going to convience everyone else to follow your plan?

[Subjectivist]

Isn't it wonderful to have positions that relieve one of any sense of responsibility.

Then one can just wallow in the obliviousness otherwise enjoyed only by the select few other groups in society who are generally held to be free of responsibility for their actions--very small children and imbeciles!

I beg to differ, I want action and I believe adaptation actions can take place with a little cajolling where the stop BAU plan never had a prayer of making an impact. We could do things right now like drop seeds for natve forest plants 100 miles north or south of the current range limt so the trees can colonize the tundra immediatly as the climate shifts. We can also export fauna to the northern or southern boundaries of its current clinate range so that those animals also can spread closer to the poles as the climate flips.

Ecosystems do best when their diversity is as broad as possible. Very soon the tundra in Siberia/Alaska/Canada is going to switch over into forrest land. Lets do what we can to make it as diverse a forest as we can with a broad base of animals and insects that can thrive there.

[Newfie]

As I've noted befor, on a personal level I'm protecting a it of woodland from clear cutting.

So yes there are things one can do.

[Subjectivist]

As I've noted befor, on a personal level I'm protecting a it of woodland from clear cutting.

So yes there are things one can do.

Exactly my point! Spinning our wheels complaining about consumers consuming is futile. Meanwhile if we stop doing that there are many things small and large we can do and influence politically.

[dohboi]

"...if we stop doing that..."

Oh, I think most of us can manage to do more than one thing at once!

I don't have any 'plan' that makes everything all better, lol.

But we can all do (or more often stop doing) things with an eye toward not making things any more horrific than they used to be.

One of the most important things to actually do is to educate yourself, especially about specific action you are planning to engage in. Trees planted in mid to upper latitudes, for example, generally are thought to have net warming effects, especially in the tundra. I'm not one who thinks that one is non-culpable for one's ignorance, especially if one decides to take action in the world (unless one is actually mentally incapacitated...we won't go there now). If you see a drowning man, and because you have seen people throw something to drowning men before you grab what ever is at hand, which happens to be a concrete block...clearly the guy would have been better off if you had just left well enough alone. People here seem ready to similarly be ready to throw anything at the problem that they think might help, without clear knowledge of whether it actually will or not.

Knowledge is always a good idea, whether you act on it or not. Action without knowledge, though, is often...counterproductive, at best.

[dohboi]

Newf, acknowledging that large population decreases are in our future no matter what is different from having an airtight plan about how to get there in some humane way.

As with GW, we have passed the point where we can get to some relatively stable place in some relatively pain-free way.

But still every effort towards women's empowerment, as you say, will likely lessen, however slightly, the magnitude of the horror when it comes.

A well coordinated program to incentivize couples to postpone having their first child till after they are 30 or so would also be beneficial, but, as with everything now, not some kind of magic bullet that will avert disaster.

Of course, discouraging current high consumers from consuming so much has to be part of it. The millennials do seem to be stepping back a bit from hyperconsumerism. But I don't really hold out any hope of a widespread movement in this direction, except as driven by general economic collapse.

[dohboi]

Of course, knowledge is always marching forward!

So just after my comment above about trees not necessarily leading to net reductions in GW (due to albedo shifts), I come across this: http://www.scivit.de/lang/archive/1140

"...shrub vegetation and grasses result in an increase in Albedo..."

So, Sub, if you plan to launch your grand planting project in the melting permafrost, consider shrubs and grasses rather than trees!

Jus' trina be helpful...

[Newfie]

while supporting birth control is good, but having open immigration just fills the gap and erases the previous gains.

Can Democrats (Dohboi) accept that we need to put some upper limit on the population of the USA?

It strikes me most Democrats embrace unlimited population growth.

[Newfie]

If you accept that we need to put a cap on our population it is a bad thing.

Maybe if we had such a cap we would not start so damn many wars.

Look to the unintended consequences of our Syrian escapades and what it has done to Europe in addition to the ME.