[Aaron]

When this moves out of "committee", look out.

After November maybe?

http://peakoil.com/article591.html

[Mower]

The US is over-extending itself with its so-called "war on terrorism" (which apperas to really be a move to get heavy forces near major oil sources). The return of the draft was bound to happen.

[Mower]

Apparently not everyone shares your concern:

http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/show ... stcount=21

from this thread:

http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/show ... hp?t=72792


Please come on over here and lend your weight. I'm sick of ridicule.

[Aaron]

Nikko says,

"Ja sends greetings to these fierce young warriors-to-be, and grants blessing upon all of your villages in return for your lives.

Eu nu mee nom naw oooo won!

We salute you man... I mean like... man... we salute you dudes."

Sorry, but I surfed as much of the forum you linked as I could before hitting my maximum distracting stuff overload point... & my head exploded.

Good luck in there buddy...

--------------------------------

Tarzan swings into the tree house one afternoon, and Jane remarks. "Tarzan, you look terrible, sit down!" Tarzan slumps into his easy chair, heaves a sigh and reaches for his martini. "Jane", he says, "It's a jungle out there."

[Mower]

Well the website is actually mainly for flight simming but that particular forum is for anything. They have labeled some conspiracy theorist over there and/or paranoid. I don't all day to spell out every point. *sigh*

[Jack]

I wouldn't expect it by November - maybe more like March of 1995.

Despite what Rumsfeld says, there is entirely too much chatter about a draft to imagine that it won't happen.

And I suspect that the leadership of countries and large companies isn't ignorant of the reality of Peak Oil...they probably have a very good idea about the exact date.

[gg3]

Politicians in many districts who vote for a draft will find themselves out of office at the next election.

There is another way to beef up the force by 5% to 10%: do away with the archaic discrimination against gay people joining up. You would be surprised at how many will want to serve, and serve in an exemplary manner, once they don't have to lie about their identity.

By the way, most of the younger officers & enlisted apparently don't care which gender their fellow warriors fall in love with; what matters is skills, attitude, and commitment.

If a general poll were taken, I'd bet that 60% of America would rather desegregate the ranks than call up a draft.

[Aaron]

Politicians in many districts who vote for a draft will find themselves out of office at the next election.

But if Dubya wins in November, he can't be President again... So...

[Jack]

Today, I agree with your perception of American attitudes.

My underlying assumption is that those attitudes will change, and change a lot. There are reasons to believe that the terrorists will, at some point, have some successes on our soil. If we suffer a combination of financial hardships and actual deadly attacks, it's my opinion that we as a nation will react with considerable anger.

Under that paradigm, those opposed to the draft will be a small and marginalized minority - one that is distinctly unpopular.

I suspect that all will get the "opportunity" to serve, regardless of gender or other orientation.

[sheilach]

A poster at a peak oil forum brought up an interesting question, if oil is rising, how come prices at the pump are the same or even falling???

Do I smell a FIX here??

Are those unelected OIL men occupying the white house telling their OIL buddies to keep the prices at the pump down untill AFTER the November Selection???

That's what it looks like to me, does anyone else see it that way??

Does Bush/Cheney really believe that by keeping the pump price down, lying about the economy and unemployment guarantee he re-Selection??

Does he think ALL Americans are "SHEEPLE"????

What so sad is that Kerry said he would have STILL voted for the illegal attack and occupation of Iraq even after he knew that Iraq had no connection with 9/11, no connection with Al-quada, NO weapons of mass destruction and wasn't a threat to the US.

The only "crime" of Iraq was they are sitting on the second largest OIL RESERVE in the WORLD!!!

And we want it and will kill anyone that gets in the way, including innocent Iraqi men, women and children!!

How low the US has fallen!!!

WE are a ROGUE TERRORIST NATION!!!

Lower the flag, it's time to morn the loss of America the just and free.

[cannottell]

And we want it and will kill anyone that gets in the way, including innocent Iraqi men, women and children!!

How low the US has fallen!!!

WE are a ROGUE TERRORIST NATION!!!

Lower the flag, it's time to morn the loss of America the just and free.

Finally got around to that Noam Chomsky reading eh? Took you long enough.

[Pops]

This is OT, but to answer sheliach:
Gasoline inventories in the us are fairly large at the moment even though crude oil inventories are still falling. Gasoline demand is actually down .02% from this time last year, but distilate is up more than 6%!


EIA

[Leanan]

Under that paradigm, those opposed to the draft will be a small and marginalized minority - one that is distinctly unpopular.

I agree. If Dubya had reinstated the draft on Sept. 12, 2001, no one would have protested.

And of course, if the economy really tanks, joining the military may be the ticket to survival. Food, shelter, and clothing, all provided courtesy of Uncle Sam. Hard to beat that, if no other jobs are available.

[sheilach]

Finally got around to that Noam Chomsky reading eh? Took you long enough.

Nope, that's my own feeble nuerons firing off in that rant.

But yes, I have read some of Noam Chomsky's work.

He also knows what's really going on here.

I am so royaly pissed off at this corrupt oligarchy of a government we're stuck with.
The electoral 'collage' has the real vote in the presidential Selection and the economy is about to tank because of deficit spending for this illegal attack and occupation of Iraq & Afganistan and our huge and growing trade deficit and decline in decent paying jobs, a growing population, tax cuts for the ultra rich and of course the peak of light, sweet crude.

is OT, but to answer sheliach:
Gasoline inventories in the us are fairly large at the moment even though crude oil inventories are still falling. Gasoline demand is actually down .02% from this time last year, but distilate is up more than 6%!

That oil inventory will be used by our military to keep 'order' as the economy tanks next year.

Isn't gasoline a 'distilate'?

I don't know of any gasoline wells.

And of course, if the economy really tanks, joining the military may be the ticket to survival. Food, shelter, and clothing, all provided courtesy of Uncle Sam. Hard to beat that, if no other jobs are available.

Wouldn't the cost of that 'survival' be rather stiff?
Would you kill your sister,father, mother, brother or nice neighbor if that was the only 'job' available?

Of course there could be a military coup.

We would be better off, perhaps, if the military overthrew this corrupt, unelected criminal, warmongering government.

We could then start over with a new constitution and a truely representative government where our vote actually COUNTS, no "electoral collage", no "winner takes all", proportional representation, a democracy that represents ALL the people, not just the rich and corporations.
No more "free speech zones", airwaves that broad cast ALL points of view, not just that of the corporations and the corrupt government. :D

However this is unlikely to happpen untill the US is a basket case with martial law and no real freedoms.
AH, that seems TOO familar

[k_semler]

I would post what I just thought of, (while being very drunk after consuming over 56 oz {4648 ML}, but doing so would probably initiate the CIA, FBI, and Secret service investigating me, and knocking on my door. I will give a hint though, it had to do with a song that the Beatles came out with regarding a new constitution. Specifically, I am referring to the line in the song during the chorus that comes immediately after, "I tip my hat to the new constitution," If you have heard this song, you will know what I am talking about. If you have not heard of this song search on Goggle for it.

[Leanan]

Wouldn't the cost of that 'survival' be rather stiff?
Would you kill your sister,father, mother, brother or nice neighbor if that was the only 'job' available?

I can't answer that, and I don't think anyone can, unless they've actually been in the situation. Basically, it's the lifeboat question: do you sacrifice a few to save the rest, or do you all die? We may like to think we'd do something fair, like draw lots, but time and again, in actual emergencies, perfectly decent people threw women and children aside in order to get to the lifeboats first. Even the crew, who are supposed to save the passengers first, instead save themselves. Survival is a powerful instinct.

That said...it may not be that bad. Millions have starved in North Korea, but there's no unrest...because the Army is well-fed. Just the threat of reprisal can keep order. And our army may well be deployed overseas, in places like Iraq, so that you won't be shooting at anyone you know. During WWII, they were careful to deploy Japanese-American soldiers only in Europe, so they would not be faced with the possibility of shooting a relative.

[Mower]

An interesting point was raised: with oil prices at records hihg, gas prices in Canada (and I assume the US) are low, not even spiking. What's up?

[sheilach]

I can't answer that, and I don't think anyone can, unless they've actually been in the situation. Basically, it's the lifeboat question: do you sacrifice a few to save the rest, or do you all die? We may like to think we'd do something fair, like draw lots,

If we are going to be rational about who gets to be in the "lifeboat" you would pick the most usefull, healthy, and smart people and let the youngest, oldest, sick,defective, weak, criminals, etc "sink".

In a "lifeboat" situation, you need to save the people who will be the most usefull in saving those in the lifeboat, the others are just useless baggage.

But in a situation where hungry, desperate people were trying to break into a food storage area for example,the military would
just fire at random at the masses to restore "order, and take
out a few of the "excess" and expendable people.

By the time TSHTF, most human life will have little value because there are so many of us and the resource base is shrinking.
Most of us will be considered useless "baggage" by those in power and thus expendable so their "betters" can survive in the comfort to which they have become accustomed.

I will give a hint though, it had to do with a song that the Beatles came out with regarding a new constitution. Specifically, I am referring to the line in the song during the chorus that comes immediately after, "I tip my hat to the new constitution," If you have heard this song, you will know what I am talking about. If you have not heard of this song search on Goggle for it.

"Meet the new boss, just like the old boss"

Geez, I hope it doesn't come to that!!!

" We won't be fooled again" Oh yeh??

Most people have been and are still being duped by the same liers that duped their ancestors-the "god" peddlers.

Billions of people are getting "fooled again" by the same lying paracites that fooled their parents, praying the same worthless prayers, praising the same non-existant deities, giving of their hard work and wealth to the same liers that robbed their ancestors, people are STUPID!!

They get fooled again and again and still they come back for more!!

Most of us will be fooled again and again!

Don't forget, WE the people do NOT ELECT THE PRESIDENT!, the ELECTORS do and the ELECTORS can vote any dam way they choose or as they are bribed to vote.

I see no reason to get "excited" about the upcoming "selection" of the resident of the White house since WE the PEOPLE cannot VOTE for them.
OUR VOTE can ONLY SELECT the ELECTORS.

So if OUR "vote" cannot ELECT the president, why call this mess a "democracy"???
There are even rumors flying about that Bush will pull off a "terrorist" attack just before the Selection so he can call it off and have marshal law declared and "delay" indefinatey he Selection.

As oil and natural gas decline, expect the government to become very repressive, by-by constitution and bill of "rights", we won't have any "rights".

[k_semler]

So if OUR "vote" cannot ELECT the president, why call this mess a "democracy"???

The United States of America is not a democracy, it is a Constitutional Republic. Here is a quote of Article II, Section I of the United States Constitution:

The executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows:

Each State shall appoint, in such a Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress; but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by ballot for two Persons, of whom one of least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, and if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot on of them for President; and if no person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List she said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chasing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; a quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member of Members of two thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the person having the greatest number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot of the Vice President.*

The Congress may determine the Time of Chusing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States of America.

*=Changed by Ammendment XII, which was ratified on June 15, 1804

The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;

The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;

The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.

The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two- thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

[sheilach]

The United States of America is not a democracy, it is a Constitutional Republic.

Like I just said, why do people persist in calling this corporate plutocracy a "democracy"???

Why do most people seem to believe that when they go to vote this November, they will be voting for the President when in fact, they are merely voting for appointed "electors" who then can vote any dam way they choose??

quote]The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President,

The electors do the voting for the president and vice president and they are NOT obliged to follow the POPULAR vote.

Even though the previous SELECTION was clearly corrupt and manipulated, congress and the senate DID NOTHING to stop the SELECTION of G.W.Bush by the so called "supreme" court.

Where does it say in the constitution that the SUPREME COURT can SELECT the president??

This system has become so corrupt, I fear what will happen as oil and natural gas decline and the military industrial complex no longer has the fuel to wage it's wars of occupation and seizure of countries and raw materials to "protect our (the corporations) interests".

I am also sick and tired of talk show hosts who claim that us Americans are sitting on our duff as this corruption runs rampant.
What the hell can WE do about it???

Our "vote" is worthless, "our representatives" represent themselves and the corporations, we can only protest in chain link fenced, concertina topped, isolated so called "free speech zones"?

Does any other so called "democracy" lock up it's citizens who dare to protest peacfully into fenced in "free speech zones"?

I don't know of any.

All protestors to the establishment are kept out of sight of the cameras who can only show the flag waving "sheeple" who "support" those in power.

We can be detained without charge, denied legal advice, detained indefinately without our friends and family having any idea what happend to us, we simply can "dissapear" just as people do in dictatorships.

So what's the use of "voting" for president when our vote doesn't matter?

The ELECTORS who are appointed by the STATE have the vote, not us.

This so called "representative"constitutional repuglic doesn't represent US and never has.