[Leanan]

Currency didn't lose value in the Great Depression, though. It gained value - deflation. It was "Brother, can you spare a dime?" not "Brother, can you spare a few shavings of gold?"

Of course, currency was gold-backed back then. OTOH, the Great Depression was brief and mild compared to what we'll likely be facing with the end of oil. Would jewelry and gold hold their value if the Great Depression were a lot longer and a lot deeper? I'm not counting on it.

[lowem]

I wondered if any of our guests come from countries with mandatory military service for all citizens?

Many Americans still have a bad association with the military draft, from the experience of Vietnam, (& not wanting to die of course), but many countries require a period of service for citizens, which is viewed as a normal, and accepted practice unfamiliar to most US citizens.

"National Service" (NS) is compulsory for all male Singapore citizens. Typically we're drafted in for a period of 2-2.5 years at around the age of 17-20. Many of us will have spent our 21st birthday (rite of passage and all that crap) in an army camp. I did. At least I was fortunate enough not to be on *guard duty* that day.

What good did it do? Besides a fair amount of uhh "vocabulary expansion (ahem) that is. Learnt to aim and fire an M-16, load rounds, clean the #!@# rifle. The firing was fun, cleaning and having it inspected afterwards, wasn't.

Guns and bullets weren't the only thing of course. Army buddies can go on all day swapping all kinds of stories. About what? I dunno. The food, the sergeants, the officers, the ghost stories ... lots of people have plenty to talk about, the last part

[k_semler]

Yes, it is true for a barter and trade system to work, there must be an item that the other person is willing to receive in exchange for the item that you desire to obtain. If you are short on material goods, you will always have at least one thing to exchange for products. It is called labor.

As a bummed up old lady, my labor wouldn't be worth much, that's why I would like to have some gold to trade for goods should the dollar crash, a event I think is all too likely.In all previous depressions, gold has held it's value as the currency tanked.In post WWI Germany, people traded with their jewels, precious metal coins, furniture anything but Deutsch marks which were worthless and only useful for burning to keep warm.
If the gov. wants my gold, they'll have to search for it but some will be in my safe deposit box in my bank.

Then gold would in fact prove to be a valuable asset to you. Also, if you have some gold in a safety deposit box, and the banks are closed down because of a banking holiday as they were during the great depression, or during Argentina's collapse, how would you get access to your gold? I am still in near peak physical condition, so labor would not be a problem for me if it was required to provide my services in exchange for material goods, (besides money, I do that already).

Destruction of a large amount of dams would also devastate quite a bit of farmland, ruin irrigation, and eliminate flood control. It would be an attack that would have impact on many levels of the economy and population, yet it could be executed with minimal effort.

I guess we are fortunate that some environmental extremists haven't tried that yet!

Yes, I think we are very lucky that the Earth Liberation Front has not decided to resort to this form of terrorism. This would severely impact almost every aspect of the American economy.

Persons enlisted in the military are not only recommended to disobey illegal orders, but required to do so. If a solider receives an order to rape a woman, kill her, and eat her, that would be a very illegal order. By obeying illegal orders, the solider no longer places the superior responsible for his actions, but he is also responsible for his actions.

It would still be the officers word against the enlisted person, and if the way some cops get away with mayhem and murder even if video taped, I suspect the enlisted person would have a difficult time convincing the military tribunal that the order they obeyed was given by the officer in charge, and if they refused to obey an illegal order, whats to prevent the officer from simply killing that soldier and claiming he was killed by the enemy or "friendly fire"?

Yes, it would be difficult to prove in a court of law, and almost impossible if there were not witnesses to the situation, and there was no video recording of the unlawful order being issued. As far as the officer simply eliminating the dissenting solider, this would not be very easy. Many solders are very well trained in close quarters combat, and are well trained on firearms as well. the situation that would evolve between the solider and the officer would be a matter of life and death, and it is likely that the solider would not simply stand by and be killed, he would fight for his life, and may end up taking the life of the aggressor.

Really? So, what did North Korea do today to their latest political prisoner? When was the last recorded state sanctioned murder in Cuba? Have any other state sanctioned murders occurred since then that have not been recorded? If not, how do you know? If so, what are your sources?

Of course actions done within a totalitarian state can be kept secret, but actions done outside that state in other countries is difficult to keep out of the press because they don't have control of the entire country or it's people, some one will escape and report that illegal action, try escaping from Cuba, North Korea or China, pretty difficult but a few have managed it but by then the news they bring is old news.

How do you prosecute a criminal government?

How can you report events within a totalitarian state and get that information out of that country?

The way to prosecute a criminal government is to forcibly remove them from power, and capture the persons in charge of the criminal government, and institute a system of trials similar to the Nuremberg trials of Nazi officials.

The only way I know of to obtain information about the activities of a totalitarian government is to actively encourage and support dissenters of the government that you wish to undermine. Once dissenters arrive, you obtain as much information as possible about the crimes that have been committed, and also obtain information regarding the internal operations of the dictatorship. After enough information has been gathered, there is grounds for a forceful removal of the offending government, and proper criminal prosecutions.

If such details are leaked to the public of classified materials, it is not very difficult to trace the leak back to the source, and eliminate the offending threat. Whether it is charges of espionage, charges of treason, or an unofficially authorized execution, channels exist to eliminate any possible threats to national security.

Exactly!
Governments are very good at making difficult people disappear.

Yes they are.

I suspect this is why S/W radios cost quite a bit of money even used, while a 21 inch televison can be bought for under $100.00. People are more likely to spend $100 on a televison over a radio merely because of the perceived value.

Most people are unaware that SW radio even exists or what can be heard from those broadcasts, and even if they have heard of SW, they believe that it's in a foreign language.
Also SW radio requires finer tuning and a narrower frequency filter for the narrower frequencies that SW broadcasters uses.

Too many people are renters or live in a home with a homeowners association that has banned roof antennas, of course, there is a way around that if the building isn't metal sheathed like a mobile home is.

If persons are unaware that S/W exists, I am afraid that they need to do some research into the various forms of broadcasting. If they are aware of the BBC serving Nazi POWs during WWII, or have even heard of Ham radios, then they are aware of S/W radio. Even if they do not know the proper frequencies for the various broadcasters, it is very easy to find simply by randomly tuning in stations, and waiting until they announce the broadcasting frequencies for their region of the world. About the only area that I would consider somewhat confusing for the average person would be that all times are broadcast in UTC. If you do not know your timezones difference in time from UTC, this can be somewhat challenging to know when proper broadcasting times are for your area.

You brought up a good point about the different frequency filters required for SW radio reception, and I suppose that is quite a factor in why the cost is very high compared to a normal AM/FM radio. Specialized frequency filters can be prohibitively expensive.

As far as limitations imposed by home owners associations and landlords upon tenants, I would advise that you read the FCC Fact Sheet on the placement of antennas. In short, if you have controlling interest of a piece of property, the HOA or person renting cannot restrict placement of an antenna less than one meter in diameter or diagonal measurement that do not exceed the highest point on the roof line more than 12 feet. If they have rules in place that contradict the FCC regulations, you have legal grounds to file a complaint and petition the federal communications commission.

I absolutely despise commercials on the radio and televison.

Me too! I especially despise those pop up ads on top of the TV programing, their garish, disfiguring logo's, and constant interruptions for commercials.
I think the FCC should ban that and commercials for prescription drugs!

Of course the FCC has become another corporate puppet.
Their only function is to dumb down the programing to make it "safe" for the little kiddies.

I 100% agree with you on the aspect of banning "direct to consumer" marketing of prescription drugs. Certified medical doctors should be the persons concerned with what to administer the patient for a prescription, the patient should not be subjected to potentially deadly medications on the whim of pharmaceutical companies. I would only go a couple steps further for commercial restrictions. I would simply ban all commercial breaks during the airing of a televison program, and only allow it between scheduled programming. It may be more restrictive, but it would help the population retain some sense of dignity and not be subjected to constant commercialism.

I would only somewhat disagree with you in stating that the FCC is another corporate tool, as they have refused to require licensing of the 2GHz frequency range, and have passed very good legislation regarding antenna placement as I have stated above, as well as unlicensed the 11 meter band for CB radios. Yes, the FCC may do some things I do not really approve of, (such as approving broadcasting flags on HDTV content, as well as pushing DTV conversion), but I would overall say that they are the least corrupted government department.

My point still stands, what good is a government, if there is no nation to govern?

It would be mighty difficult for even the American government to wipe out the entire population and besides, they don't need too, just wipe out enough to discourage further resistance.

Very true.

Imagine 500 Oklahoma City incidents happening at various battlefield locations, (actual combat NOT terrorism), it would absolutely devastate opposing forces. Use a couple tons of this, and you will severely impede your enemy's ability to overtake your position, and severely impact their battlefield operations. Remember the Vietnam war was won by a bunch of guys on bicycles riding the Ho Chi Mihn train.

First you have to organize quite a few people to pull that off and you can be sure government agents would infiltrate such organizations sooner or later and have them rounded up and arrested as "suspect terrorists" and that's the end of that.

Yes, it would take a massive intelligence operation, but given a war time scenario, and the widespread availability of public communications, it would easily be done. Ham radios, CB, telephone, internet, telegraph, and many other methods of modern communication greatly ease obstacles to communications. Using a proper encryption algorithm such as RSA-4 or PGP, cracking the communications of co-ordinating parties would be very difficult. As far as a "terrorist" suspect, I do not think that would be appropriate terminology in a war situation. The suspects would more than likely be held as "Unlawful Combatants" so the Geneva convention would not be necessary to abide by.

Now that the Gov. is aware that citizens know about fertilizer bombs, they keep records of every bulk fertilizer sale.

They also keep records of every vehicle transfer, and firearms purchase, but there still exist methods to obtain virtually anything without government recording the transition. Knowing persons in industries that you wish to acquire a controlled good greatly reduces the government red tape. Also, if a person realizes that they will die in the explosion, (which if it was a war-time situation, Kamikaze truckers could become commonplace), I do not think it would matter much if the transaction in question was recorded by the government or not, as the offender is now dead.

Given this logic, why not vaporise Beijing, Hong Kong, Shanghai, and a few other random Chinese cities? After all, they have 1.5 billion people living there, I do not think they would even notice a loss of 750 million Chinese citizens

Why "vaporize" the cities?, just wipe out a few million uncooperative people and leave the infrastructure intact to be used by more docile workers.

Because China is taking up our petroleum, and currently has an active nuclear program. They may also take actions against Taiwan militarily to ensure the perpetuation of the one china policy. Preemptive nuclear strike would ease our competition, and also severely impair their military efforts. Ya! I can be GWB too!

Yes, military support on the side of the rebellion would help immensely, and would be preferable to no support. However, I know a revolution could be won even without support of the US military, I am sure quite a number of other countries across the globe would be more than willing to help out in this scenario.

Dream on my friend, at present, the US military poses too much of a threat, UNLESS our military is willing to rebel and co-operate with other countries to overthrow this dangerous, rogue government.

Yes, the US military may be able to crush any individual army of any nation worldwide, but do you think they could take on 225 countries at the same time? I have very little doubt that a large enough opposition force would absolutely devastate the US military capabilities. Yes, it would not be a very easy force to overcome, (especially with over 3500 ICBMs), but it could be done. I do think that a popular uprising falls in the category of possible but not probable.

Remember how in WW2, little Germany nearly won their war against all of Europe until the US joined the war with their European allies?

Yes, the US, USSR, and allies crushed Nazi Germany, the US did not do it alone. We had a hard enough time with Japan, and it has been estimated that if we did not detonate the nuclear bombs, we would have lost 500,000 men, and taken 5 years longer to win a victory in Japan. Losses on the Japanese side were estimated to exceed 1.5 million if a conventional taking of the Japanese homeland was undertaken. WWII on the European front would have likely turned out very different if Germany had deployed their experimental jet fighters early in the war, and also kept only a one front war. Germany spread the military too thin, and they suffered the consequences. Fighting the Russians greatly took away their defensive capabilities on the western front, as well as imposed severe restrictions on their offensive capabilities. Thank god that Hitler was not a military strategist, and simply a deranged lunatic.

I will agree with you, but I do not think I should say anymore than that in an open forum. The walls may have ears.

Indeed, "Asscrack" and his henchmen troll the web for certain words, like rebellion, fertilizer bombs, bombs, revolution, incinerates, etc etc etc.

I would seriously not doubt this, and I even though the first amendment states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech; or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble; and to petition the government for a redress of grievances," I do not really believe it. The restrictions are on United States congress, not on state congressional assemblies, and not on municipalities. I have faith in the United States constitution as it is written and amended, I have virtually no faith in the current government. The Constitution is the charter of our country, and it appears that the Board of directors has violated the company charter, and we need to dissolve them. We as a company need a new board of directors.

Tokyo Rose was well known to our troops during WW2, gave them quite a laugh as she told of the glorious victories of the imperial Japanese fighters and how we should quite fighting and go home to our loved ones.

Yes, she was a source of entertainment to the US military because the propaganda she was spewing on the airwaves were obviously lies. Yet, the US government filed charges of Treason against her for, and she served 18 years, (if I remember right), in jail, and also had a $500,000 fine. If they will do this to a radio broadcaster, what will they do do a nobody from nowhere that the world would not even notice if I were to disappear off of the face of the earth tomorrow?

I will only disclose this, because it is publicly known that Ammonium Nitrate can be used as a high explosive, but I will not tell you how to obtain, assemble, or otherwise research details pertaining to the use of this substance. The Patriot act II is in effect, and I do not support, condone, or otherwise support unauthorized explosives procurement, manufacturing, assembly, deployment, or detonation.

Neither do I, but the information is out there if your willing and brave enough to search for it.
I have found quite a bit of information on the web that tells you how to assemble explosives using commonly available chemicals and equipment, of course I never tried to do any of that, I was merely curious about the subject and no more.

Yes, there is information on virtually any subject you wish to research available on the internet, and if a person so desires they can find information on construction of Ordnance. The Anarchist's Cookbook quickly springs to mind, but if a person employs these techniques in a non-combat situation, then I hope that they get caught, arrested, and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Research is fine, active deployment is an act of war.

So much for freedom of information!

I agree, but you can get information on any topic or any device you wish if you know where to look, and if you have appropriate connections. How else could have OBL found out about chemical weapons?

[Guest]

People who don't own the land they work tend to abuse that land and not improve it because they cannot fully profit from their efforts.That's why communes have nearly allways failed, too many takers and not enough workers.

You are under the impression that capitalism puts the land in the hands of the people who work the fields?

Novel outlook.

Huh, that novel outlook must be how my families have their farms. Certainly wasn't communism that gave my grandfather his farm or my father-in-law his, he sold his Corvette to build hog barns. Yup, communism at work.

[sheilach]

Also, if you have some gold in a safety deposit box, and the banks are closed down because of a banking holiday as they were during the great depression, or during Argentina's collapse, how would you get access to your gold?

That's precisley why I won't keep all of my gold in the bank!
The main reason the banks closed durring the great depression was because people panicked and tried to take all of their money out of the banks, of course the banks didn't have enough money on hand to give to all those who tried to withdraw it, so they closed the banks untill "order" could be restored.People were then limited to how much they could withdraw.

As far as the officer simply eliminating the dissenting solider, this would not be very easy. Many solders are very well trained in close quarters combat, and are well trained on firearms as well. the situation that would evolve between the solider and the officer would be a matter of life and death, and it is likely that the solider would not simply stand by and be killed, he would fight for his life, and may end up taking the life of the aggressor.

Of course a smart officer would know that and pick a time and a place where he could "off" that soldier with little risk to himself.To blow his cool and attack that soldier in a argument when that soldier would be expecting a reaction to his charges would be most unwise, better to pretend not to be upset at the soldiers charges and get him later.

If you do not know your timezones difference in time from UTC, this can be somewhat challenging to know when proper broadcasting times are for your area.

UTC was once called GMT, on the west coast of the US there 8 hours earlier than UTC at Greenwich in the UK.
The world almenac has a map showing the worlds time zones.

if you have controlling interest of a piece of property, the HOA or person renting cannot restrict placement of an antenna less than one meter in diameter or diagonal measurement that do not exceed the highest point on the roof line more than 12 feet.

That's a BIG "IF" because renters and people in a HOA DON"T have a CONTROLING interest in the property, that's why landlords and HOA can restrict the home owners and deny them the "right" to have a roof antenna.
That's one reason when I looked to buy a home, I specified that I didn't want a home with a HOA, I want control over my property and not be subject to a HOA or a landlord.
Too many people let the power get to them when they join a home owners association and place too many restrictive rules over the other people in the development.

If persons are unaware that S/W exists, I am afraid that they need to do some research into the various forms of broadcasting. If they are aware of the BBC serving Nazi POWs during WWII, or have even heard of Ham radios, then they are aware of S/W radio.

Most people learn very little in school and history when I went to school was very boring.After they leave school, their too buisy working and raising a family to research anything they don't even know about.
They know AM/FM and TV and a few have heard of FRS and CB, but that's about it.
Ham? what's that? very few people have heard of Ham radio operators unless their in a natural disaster.
If it's not advertised on TV or radio, they don't know about it.

Yes, the FCC may do some things I do not really approve of, (such as approving broadcasting flags on HDTV content, as well as pushing DTV conversion), but I would overall say that they are the least corrupted government department.

I don't have HDTV and I refuse to buy one as long as those ugly, disfiguring, irritating garish LOGO's, pop up ads for products and other programs is overlayed on top of the programs.
Even broadcast TV programing has those ugly LOGO's sqatting on top of the programs.

Ham radios, CB, telephone, internet, telegraph, and many other methods of modern communication greatly ease obstacles to communications.

I know perfectly well that "our" government is constantly monitoring all radio frequencies and I'm not at all sure that even digital encription is completely safe from their "ears".

The suspects would more than likely be held as "Unlawful Combatants" so the Geneva convention would not be necessary to abide by.

I have noticed that the current administration has NO respect for the Geneva convention or international law, and just what is a "unlawfull combatant"?
Is any resistance against American aggression and occupation deemed to be by "unlawfull combatants"?

Knowing persons in industries that you wish to acquire a controlled good greatly reduces the government red tape.

So would THEFT!

Because China is taking up our petroleum, and currently has an active nuclear program. They may also take actions against Taiwan militarily to ensure the perpetuation of the one china policy. Preemptive nuclear strike would ease our competition, and also severely impair their military efforts. Ya! I can be GWB too!

Heh Heh heh, OUR petrolium??? so possesion is 9/10s of the law? That's seems to be our foreign policy, attack and occupy the country that has the resources we want, like Iraq.
China sends "test" missiles that just happen to fly over Taiwan, we have sent at least four aircraft carriers and support ships in a military "exercise" that just "happens" to be in the China sea in co-operation with Taiwan.

Since GWB has announced he will use pre-emptive strikes against ANY country he thinks is a threat to the US (interests), I wouldn't be surprised if he does that in his second term after the November "Selection".
I think one "GWB" is more than too much.

but do you think they could take on 225 countries at the same time?

Do you think 225 countries could get together to take on the US?I think that's unlikely, the losses would be too high.

Yes, the US, USSR, and allies crushed Nazi Germany, the US did not do it alone.

Indeed we didn't, we showed up late in the war just as we did in WW1.

Germany spread the military too thin, and they suffered the consequences.

Like Nepoleon, they were defeated by the cruel Russian winter and they were poorly equipped for a winter war.It was fortunate that the Nazis didn't develop the jet fighter and the V2 untill late in the war.

Thank god that Hitler was not a military strategist, and simply a deranged lunatic.

Indeed, what if Rommel had been in charge of military strategy for the nazis?
Then it would have been a very different kind of war and Germany could have won early on.

have virtually no faith in the current government. The Constitution is the charter of our country, and it appears that the Board of directors has violated the company charter, and we need to dissolve them. We as a company need a new board of directors.

The whole rotten bunch needs to be thrown out, but how to accomplish that?They have violated all of the laws in the bill of rights and much of the constitution as well, they have no respect for any law that doesn't benefit them.
They even use peoples religious superstitions to gain more control over the majority of the people.If you can get people to believe in impossible things, you can get them to believe ANYTHING!

they will do this to a radio broadcaster, what will they do do a nobody from nowhere that the world would not even notice if I were to disappear off of the face of the earth tomorrow?

If your well known around the country or the world, it would be difficult for the government to make you dissapear without notice, on the other hand, no one would notice if I disapeared.

if a person employs these techniques in a non-combat situation, then I hope that they get caught, arrested, and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Research is fine, active deployment is an act of war.

Wouldn't an attack upon this illegitamate government be considered a combat situation because they have violated our rights and violates international laws and the Geneva convention?

How different would it be for American resistors to attempt to free themselves from a government that doesn't represent their interests from the "patriots" that resisted the rule of King George on the colonies?
Wouldn't that be considered another 1776? Another rebelion against a unjust ruler?
I consider GWB another "King" George.

[Coolman]

"Destruction of a large amount of dams would also devastate quite a bit of farmland, ruin irrigation, and eliminate flood control. It would be an attack that would have impact on many levels of the economy and population, yet it could be executed with minimal effort. "

I would be in favor of taking down a dam, just so its taking down by draining it and not blowing it up, blowing it up would cause a massive flood. I don't give a fuck about the economy, just so nature does not get hurt.