[k_semler]

Like I just said, why do people persist in calling this corporate plutocracy a "democracy"???

Because the general population has no idea on how the electoral process is set up, and the natural conclusion to draw from casting a ballot for an office is that your individual vote helps determine the final outcome of the election. While this is only somewhat correct, as it indicates how the electoral Representatives appointed to their states should vote, it is not a mandatory indicator of how the electoral Representatives must vote. The country could vote 100% for either candidate, and if the electoral college so chose, they could appoint a person to the office of the president that nobody has heard of. Many people have also not bothered to read the Constitution in its entity, and believe what the mass media teaches them about the government of the United States.

Why do most people seem to believe that when they go to vote this November, they will be voting for the President when in fact, they are merely voting for appointed "electors" who then can vote any dam way they choose??

As I stated above, it is a combination of both the influence of the mis-information campaign that the mass media undertakes during the election years, and also because one is naturally inclined to believe that your individual ballot will have some weight in the final determination process. However, when you say "they are merely voting for appointed electors", this is only somewhat true. The general voting direction of the state should serve as a direct indication to how the appointed electors should place their votes for president. However, it is not mandatory that the electors vote in the same direction that their appointed state does.

What I do not understand is the mantra that "every vote counts" when that is only the case in the "swing states" such as Illinois, Florida, Kentucky, Etc. I loyal red or blue states, the individual vote does not matter that much.

For example, I reside in Washington State, which votes for the democratic candidate in almost every election. I am a republican, and even if I cast my ballot, it will not make any difference in the final determination in which way the majority of the state voted during that election. Also, 20 miles away from my location, in Idaho, the general direction that elections proceed there is Republican. Even if I were to move to Idaho, and vote Republican, it would make no difference in how the final determination in which way the majority of the state voted during the election process. The only states where individual votes matter is in the very few swing states scattered thorough the nation. If you reside in any other state that is not a "swing state", then your vote is basically meaningless.

For this reason, I have decided to sit out this election. I will vote only for the state issues, and not for the president. As far as I am concerned, our governmental system is only a facade for a democratic election. We never will have a simple majority rule, because that would upset the oligarchy that is now in place. God forbid that the individual vote actually count, and the citizenry determine the fate of the nation. "A government by the people, of the people, and for the people" my gludeous maximus. It is more like, "A government by the elite, of the elite, and for the elite."

[sheilach]

it indicates how the electoral Representatives appointed to their states should vote, it is not a mandatory indicator of how the electoral Representatives must vote. The country could vote 100% for either candidate, and if the electoral college so chose, they could appoint a person to the office of the president that nobody has heard of. Many people have also not bothered to read the Constitution in its entity, and believe what the mass media teaches them about the government of the United States.

The "mass media" has become government propaganda, a bunch of B.S.

Too many people believe what ever they are told, that's why we have so many ignorant believers.

What I do not understand is the mantra that "every vote counts" when that is only the case in the "swing states" such as Illinois, Florida, Kentucky, Etc. I loyal red or blue states, the individual vote does not matter that much.

I live in a "swing" state, Oregon, I'm a Green but like you, I'm not wasting my time "voting" for president, just the issues.

Kerry seems to be a clone of Bush and because our corrupt system is set up so "winner" takes all, the "losers" have no representation.

I think proportional representation would be fairer and we need to trash the electoral "collage", but of course the corporate oligarchy wouldn't allow that.
The way the so called "two party" system is set up, we in reality have only ONE party, that of the oligarch controled corporations.

A "third" party hasn't a chance and because the progressives are divided into several parties, we will never have a more progressive government because even if in total they have most of the votes, it's the ONE party that gets the most votes that wins even though that party may represents only 20% of the people-"winner" takes all.

There are fewer conservative parties than progressives, the biggest conservitive being of course the republicans, but they aren't your honorable Eisenhower republicans, these people are greedy, controlling, warmongering, christian fundie neo nazis.
They oppose everything that America once stood for and they have turned this nation into a terrorist, anti democratic,warmongering,budget busting, anti worker,irresponsible rogue state.

Lower the flag, it doesn't deserve respect any more.

[k_semler]

it indicates how the electoral Representatives appointed to their states should vote, it is not a mandatory indicator of how the electoral Representatives must vote. The country could vote 100% for either candidate, and if the electoral college so chose, they could appoint a person to the office of the president that nobody has heard of. Many people have also not bothered to read the Constitution in its entity, and believe what the mass media teaches them about the government of the United States.

The "mass media" has become government propaganda, a bunch of B.S.

Too many people believe what ever they are told, that's why we have so many ignorant believers.

I'll second that motion. There are far too many sheeple, and not enough shepards in our present society. We need more shepards to lead the flock, not just another sheeple carrying a cane.

What I do not understand is the mantra that "every vote counts" when that is only the case in the "swing states" such as Illinois, Florida, Kentucky, Etc. I loyal red or blue states, the individual vote does not matter that much.

I live in a "swing" state, Oregon, I'm a Green but like you, I'm not wasting my time "voting" for president, just the issues.

Kerry seems to be a clone of Bush and because our corrupt system is set up so "winner" takes all, the "losers" have no representation.

And all along, I thought I was the only man in America that believed that. The way I see it, the two major candidates merge into each other, and there is not even 1 degree of separation. Their policies seem so similar, that if it were not for Bush's "Texbonics", and Kerry's wife that sounds like she is on drugs that I want some of, it would be impossible to tell them apart. It seems like a replay of the 2000 elections, where the only item where I supported Bush over Gore was gun policy. Gore wanted a mandatory registration system with a maximum purchase of one firearm per month, while Bush wanted to leave it where it was. On the 2000 election, I was a "single issue" voter, and it is not like they had any major difference in policy, so that was all I had to go on for that election.

I think proportional representation would be fairer and we need to trash the electoral "collage", but of course the corporate oligarchy wouldn't allow that.

The way the so called "two party" system is set up, we in reality have only ONE party, that of the oligarch controlled corporations.

Again, I agree with you 100%. I feel that a direct populous vote for president would be more appropriate for our nation, not the current system of electoral college that has long outlasted the intent of the founding fathers of this nation. I also agree with you with your views with the political parties. I call it the "DemoPublican" party that is in charge of the United States. Distinctions between the separate parties has all but disappeared, and they have merged into one party, the party of the special interests for the elite. There is no Conservative or liberal party anymore, there is simply only the Socialists or the Communists.

A "third" party hasn't a chance and because the progressives are divided into several parties, we will never have a more progressive government because even if in total they have most of the votes, it's the ONE party that gets the most votes that wins even though that party may represents only 20% of the people-"winner" takes all.

I also agree with you here. Regardless if I vote Republican, Democrat, Green, Constitutional, Nazi, Communist, Socialist, Libertarian, Democratic Socialists, Nationalist, Etc, it makes virtually no difference. If the dispersion among the various 3rd parties combined were greater than the proportion of the DemoPublican party, it would not matter anyhow, as it only matters what party has the greatest percentage of the total votes to get elected. The whole electoral process is just a farce to impose an appointed president on the nation. The individual vote has virtually no bearing in the electoral college process.

There are fewer conservative parties than progressives, the biggest Conservative being of course the republicans, but they aren't your honorable Eisenhower republicans, these people are greedy, controlling, warmongering, Christian fundie neo Nazis.

They oppose everything that America once stood for and they have turned this nation into a terrorist, anti democratic,warmongering,budget busting, anti worker,irresponsible rogue state.

I only somewhat disagree with you here. I would no longer consider the Republican party the Conservative party anymore. They would be comparable to the Corporate socialists in the rest of the world, while the Democrats would most closely represent the Marxist Communists. Hence, the DemoPublican party. What happens when you combine Socialism, Corporatism, and Communism? You get the current system of Corporate Social Communism. The DemoPublican party is only out for the interests of one group, and that group is the corporations.

I would also disagree with you on the statement that we are a terrorist state. I see that we could be considered an over-zealous, self-indulgent, selfish state, but terrorist? As far as I know, the CIA, FBI, DEA, Etc were not directly, (behind the controls of the aircraft), responsible for the atrocities of 09/11/2001. They may be responsible as far as delaying action which would have saved thousands of lives, but they did not control the minds of the hijackers, that would have been Al-Qaeda.

Lower the flag, it doesn't deserve respect any more.

The flag, and the principals that this nation were founded upon are worthy of respect, and worthy of defending until death, but the persons who supposed represent this nation, and who have corrupted the basic principals of this nation do not deserve any respect. They deserve to be tried for sedition, stripped of their citizenship, and deported to the USSR. Sadly, the only hope I have for this Corporatist nation is either the down slide of Hubbert's peak, or a replay of 1776 using modern weaponry. I would personally prefer the down slide of Hubbert's peak, as it will be far less violent, and more permanent.

[sheilach]

And all along, I thought I was the only man in America that believed that. The way I see it, the two major candidates merge into each other, and there is not even 1 degree of separation.

I hope I'm not the only old lady that thinks this way. :D

Kerry's wife that sounds like she is on drugs that I want some of

Same here

Gore wanted a mandatory registration system with a maximum purchase of one firearm per month, while Bush wanted to leave it where it was

Gimmi my big semi-automatic GUN!!! loaded and cocked!!With a big bannana clip!!

I call it the "DemoPublican" party

To me their the "Repuglicrats".

There is no Conservative or liberal party anymore, there is simply only the Socialists or the Communists.

The Dem's may have had socialist tendicies at one time but now they may "talk the talk" but they never "walk the walk", it's all just empy retoric.

The Republicans are also no longer "concervitive", no conservitive would approve of deficit spending running up a HUGE debt and bankrupting the country.The RepuGlicans are only corporate oligarch puppets.

The whole electoral process is just a farce to impose an appointed president on the nation. The individual vote has virtually no bearing in the electoral college process.

Right on man!

I would no longer consider the Republican party the Conservative party anymore. They would be comparable to the Corporate socialists in the rest of the world~~The DemoPublican party is only out for the interests of one group, and that group is the corporations.

I also aggree with you here as well, but I don't see any "socialist" connections with either party unless you mean they give our wealth to the rich and corporations in a sort of reverse "socialism".

In my understanding of "socialism" people are taxed to support social programs and infrastructure that benifit EVERYONE, not just one group.

"Communisum" is where the state owns everything including industrys and businesses and controls what is produced and how much is produced, a top down government and the people have no vote on who is in control.

I would also disagree with you on the statement that we are a terrorist state.

What else would you call a country that LIED to us and the world about why it had to preemptivly attack another solvereign state who had not threated us and could not be a threat to us?

What else would you call a country that has the biggest most dangerous military arsenal in the world who unilateraly, without cause, unjustly attacks and occupies ANOTHER COUNTRY??

What else would you call a country that imposes a puppet governmet and calls that countries citizens that try to defend their country against our occupation "enemy insurgents"?

what else would you call a country that IMPRISONS people that it labels "illegal combatants" or "suspect terrorists" in prisons where they are tortured TO DEATH, in prisons all over the third world where it has imposed on those countries MILITARY BASES ??

What else can you call a country that threatens OTHER COUNTRIES to military destruction if they don't do what we want when we want it??

To me a country with those attributes is a TERRORIST COUNTRY and a ROGUE STATE.

As far as I know, the CIA, FBI, DEA, Etc were not directly, (behind the controls of the aircraft), responsible for the atrocities of 09/11/2001.

I have seen some rather frightening evedence that our government WAS involved in 9/11 with the Saudies, remember it was a plane load of SAUDIES that were allowed to leave the country right after 9/11 when all other planes were grounded and the hijackers were SAUDIES.

I have seen a video on the web, that shows a clip from the Pentagon security camera that shows a unmanned guided missile striking the pentagon and the hole left behind by that missile, that also explains why there was NO AIRCRAFT debris left behind at the Pentigon. Go to www.911uncovered.com and see what you think.

I don't swallow the missile under the aircraft that struck the towers however, how could those not be obvious when the plane was still on the ground before take off?Unless of course our government put them there and kept anyone from seeing it.

I wouldn't put ANYTHING past this government, it's very corrupt!

the persons who supposed represent this nation, and who have corrupted the basic principals of this nation do not deserve any respect. They deserve to be tried for sedition, stripped of their citizenship, and deported to the USSR. Sadly, the only hope I have for this Corporatist nation is either the down slide of Hubbert's peak, or a replay of 1776 using modern weaponry. I would personally prefer the down slide of Hubbert's peak, as it will be far less violent, and more permanent.

I can aggree with this portion of your message but since those in power IS the United States to the world, I cannot respect the flag that represents the current United States.

Perhaps when this country collapses after oil declines, it will again be a place I can respect, but it won't be America any more and I won't be here to see the aftermath of our collapse or what this land has become.

[Jack]

The electoral 'collage' has the real vote in the presidential Selection

There are those who would look askance at an election that provides a choice between two fellows who went to the same University and belonged to the same fraternity (Skull and Bones). Not that I'd ever do that, you understand.

Would you kill your ... nice neighbor if that was the only 'job' available?

Well...if there are guarantees of civil and criminal immunity...and for the right price...

[sheilach]

There are those who would look askance at an election that provides a choice between two fellows who went to the same University and belonged to the same fraternity (Skull and Bones). Not that I'd ever do that, you understand

I think your being facetious.

Well...if there are guarantees of civil and criminal immunity...and for the right price

I think after this country collapses after the decline of oil and natural gas, it will be anarchy out there, it will be kill or be killed and "long pig" will be the most popular meat served after dog and cat.

[k_semler]

Gore wanted a mandatory registration system with a maximum purchase of one firearm per month, while Bush wanted to leave it where it was

Gimmi my big semi-automatic GUN!!! loaded and cocked!!With a big banana clip!!

I already have several. I especially like the AR-15. This works wonderfully for taking out my frustrations on a flock of blackbirds. I use the .22 for shooting beer cans, and for coyotes.

I call it the "DemoPublican" party

To me their the "Repuglicrats".

That works too

There is no Conservative or liberal party anymore, there is simply only the Socialists or the Communists.

The Dem's may have had socialist tensities at one time but now they may "talk the talk" but they never "walk the walk", it's all just empty rhetoric.

Yes, they may only use rhetoric, but thoughts lead to speech, speech leads to consideration, consideration leads to though, and thought leads to more speech and the beginning of action. As Karl Marx wrote in the Communist Manifesto: "The natural progression of an economic system is from capitalism to regulated capitalism, from regulated capitalism to socialism, from socialism to communism. Each accessing form of economics is derived from the predecessor, and is evolved upon it." As such, even language with promotes socialism is sedition, and sedition leads to treason.

The Republicans are also no longer "conservative", no Conservative would approve of deficit spending running up a HUGE debt and bankrupting the country.The RepuGlicans are only corporate oligarch puppets.

Exactly. It seems that the Democrat and Republican policies have become one and the same. Kerry mirrors Bush's policies which mirrored Gore's policies, which mirrored Clinton's policies. At this rate, this nation will be bankrupt and in an economic collapse unlike any seen in the history of the world. The Argentinean situation was only over $124 billion dollar debit, while the current national debit in the United States is in excess of $3 trillion. I once heard a random fact that the national debit is equivalent to $37,000 per capita. If the IMF should decide to foreclose on us and demand payment, this economy would be up Shiite creek without a paddle, and it would make what happened in Venezuela look like a Sunday afternoon picnic.

The whole electoral process is just a farce to impose an appointed president on the nation. The individual vote has virtually no bearing in the electoral college process.

Right on man!

I would no longer consider the Republican party the Conservative party anymore. They would be comparable to the Corporate socialists in the rest of the world~~The DemoPublican party is only out for the interests of one group, and that group is the corporations.

I also agree with you here as well, but I don't see any "socialist" connections with either party unless you mean they give our wealth to the rich and corporations in a sort of reverse "socialism".

In my understanding of "socialism" people are taxed to support social programs and infrastructure that benefit EVERYONE, not just one group.

That is exactly what I mean. It appears that there is a system of Corporate Socialism, while the system of governance for the general population is merely a lenient oligarchy.

"Communism" is where the state owns everything including industries and businesses and controls what is produced and how much is produced, a top down government and the people have no vote on who is in control.

According to the writings of Karl Marx in "The Communist Manifesto", communism is the final stage of human historical development in which the people rule both politically, and economically. According to Marx, the government is essentially an instrument of class based oppression, and the final Communistic state which finally emerges in the final step in the evolutionary process is with no class, and no money. No money is necessary because every individual only takes what he needs to survive, and contributes all he possibly can back to the economic system. Property is also held in common possession, all land becomes the property of everyone, and also of no one. As a pure communistic system evolves, formal governmental structure is no longer necessary as the citizenry control their own government.

A working example of a communistic society true to the writings of Karl Marx can be found among the early native American cultures, and today working examples can be found among isolated villages of aboriginal tribes in Australia. The modern form of communism has its roots in Marx's writings, but Lenin implemented his own version of it, and it has been very unsuccessful. The modern communistic system would be better called Leninism.

I would like to re-classify my comparison of the republicans then. I will re-classify them as Corporatist.

I would also disagree with you on the statement that we are a terrorist state.

What else would you call a country that LIED to us and the world about why it had to preemptively attack another sovereign state who had not threated us and could not be a threat to us?

Deceptive and selfish.

What else would you call a country that has the biggest most dangerous military arsenal in the world who unilaterally, without cause, unjustly attacks and occupies ANOTHER COUNTRY??

Offensive militarism.

What else would you call a country that imposes a puppet government and calls that countries citizens that try to defend their country against our occupation "enemy insurgents"?

Imperialistic.

what else would you call a country that IMPRISONS people that it labels "illegal combatants" or "suspect terrorists" in prisons where they are tortured TO DEATH, in prisons all over the third world where it has imposed on those countries MILITARY BASES ??

Totalitarian.

What else can you call a country that threatens OTHER COUNTRIES to military destruction if they don't do what we want when we want it??

To me a country with those attributes is a TERRORIST COUNTRY and a ROGUE STATE.

I do not. I see it as a deceptive imperialistic, totalitarian, militaristic leadership that has managed to confine the populous of the nation that this is a just thing to do. The government is the one perpetrating these acts, not the citizenry of the United States.

As far as I know, the CIA, FBI, DEA, Etc were not directly, (behind the controls of the aircraft), responsible for the atrocities of 09/11/2001.

I have seen some rather frightening evidence that our government WAS involved in 9/11 with the Saudis, remember it was a plane load of SAUDIS that were allowed to leave the country right after 9/11 when all other planes were grounded and the hijackers were SAUDIS.

The fact that most of the hijackers originated from Saudi Arabia is not unknown to me, and I feel we would have had just action to engage the Saudi empire. They may be the world's largest oil producer, but who are they going to sell the oil to if we ignite all of their fields like Saddam did after retreating from Kuwait? The Russians imposed a policy known as "Scorched Earth" to prevent the Nazi party from progressing too far into soviet territory by over extending their supply lines. This was a very effective defence, and we could use the very same policy, but only for offensive action instead of defensive. Only this time, it would be very simple. There would be no crops to burn, or livestock to murder. There would be only desalinization plants to De-commission, oil fields to ignite, and electrical generation facilities to destroy. We simply starve them out, and they will beg their government to surrender. Brutal, but effective. Once they surrender without condition, we institute an anti-terrorist government, and rebuild their infrastructure.

I have seen a video on the web, that shows a clip from the Pentagon security camera that shows a unmanned guided missile striking the pentagon and the hole left behind by that missile, that also explains why there was NO AIRCRAFT debris left behind at the Pentagon. Go to www.911uncovered.com and see what you think.

I don't swallow the missile under the aircraft that struck the towers however, how could those not be obvious when the plane was still on the ground before take off?Unless of course our government put them there and kept anyone from seeing it.

I wouldn't put ANYTHING past this government, it's very corrupt!

To be quite honest, I was only upset at the attack of WTC. I consider the Pentagon a valid target, as the primary function of that building is for command and control of the military. If it was even a nation waging war on our nation, and not Al-Qaeda, the pentagon would be a #1 target simply because of the very nature of the purpose of the building. 09/11/2001 was the first time that the pentagon was attacked, it saw no hostile fire during WW2.

The attack on the WTC is what pissed me off. That was only a civilian target, and it had no military function whatsoever. This is unfair warfare, and a target on a civilian target deserves swift and severe retaliatory action. Once you place civilians as a valid primary target, you are no longer waging a legal war. It has crossed the line into a guerrilla movement. Collateral damage is understandable if the civilians that were killed during battle were not intended targets, as mistakes to happen. Purposeful targeting of an un-armed, non-combatant, civilian population is the lowest action one can take when engaging in warfare.

the persons who supposed represent this nation, and who have corrupted the basic principals of this nation do not deserve any respect. They deserve to be tried for sedition, stripped of their citizenship, and deported to the USSR. Sadly, the only hope I have for this Corporatist nation is either the down slide of Hubbert's peak, or a replay of 1776 using modern weaponry. I would personally prefer the down slide of Hubbert's peak, as it will be far less violent, and more permanent.

I can agree with this portion of your message but since those in power IS the United States to the world, I cannot respect the flag that represents the current United States.

Perhaps when this country collapses after oil declines, it will again be a place I can respect, but it won't be America any more and I won't be here to see the aftermath of our collapse or what this land has become.

This may seem stupid, but I relate to America more as a feeling of unity, security, freedom, honesty, respect, and patriotism more than I do with the physical beings who supposedly represent those ideals. The persons supposed to be representing those ideals are failing at their jobs, and they are turning the America I once knew into a steaming pile of horse fecal matter. I have an allegiance to the flag of this country, and all the principals for which it stands, but I have no allegiance to the government. As far as I am concerned, the government can kiss my anus with some tongue to get the full experience.

[k_semler]

I forgot to answer one of your questions.

What else can you call a country that threatens OTHER COUNTRIES to military destruction if they don't do what we want when we want it??

Coercive.

[Leanan]

I'm actually in favor of the electoral college. Yes, even though I voted for Gore, and think Dubya is the worst president in my lifetime, if not in the history of the U.S.

We should get rid of the electors, but not the electoral college. This article explains why:

http://members.aol.com/leanan7/vote.htm

Something like an electoral college might be the only way Iraq will survive as anything resembling a democracy. No, not because we can't trust them to vote. Because the electoral college empowers minorities.

[k_semler]

The only way I would support the Electoral College is if there were an amendment to the constitution passed that required the electors to vote in accordance with their appointed state. If this were wrote into the very Constitution its self, then I would support it. Short of that measure, I will never support the electoral college.

[sheilach]

I already have several. I especially like the AR-15.

Heh heh heh , I have a AR-15-A and a nice big bannana clip!!

But I don't blast innocent wildlife with it.

Yes, they may only use rhetoric, but thoughts lead to speech, speech leads to consideration, consideration leads to though, and thought leads to more speech and the beginning of action

So far all I have seen from the dem's is talk, never any action that benifits the people who need help.

At this rate, this nation will be bankrupt and in an economic collapse unlike any seen in the history of the world

Who ever runs this country will see a economic collapse because of our huge trade and fiscal deficits, then add peak oil on top of that and you can see the future and it's not a bed of roses.
Buy gold.

According to Marx, the government is essentially an instrument of class based oppression, and the final Communistic state which finally emerges in the final step in the evolutionary process is with no class, and no money. No money is necessary because every individual only takes what he needs to survive, and contributes all he possibly can back to the economic system. Property is also held in common possession, all land becomes the property of everyone, and also of no one.

Well then why did our government insist that the former Soviet Union was a "Communist" state? Using Marxes deffinition, there has never been a communist state.
And I see some glaring weakness in Marxs version of communisum, there are too many people who take but refuse to contrubute to society.
People who don't own the land they work tend to abuse that land and not improve it because they cannot fully profit from their efforts.That's why communes have nearly allways failed, too many takers and not enough workers.

I would like to re-classify my comparison of the republicans then. I will re-classify them as Corporatist.

I would add the "repuglicrats" to that short list as well.

The attack on the WTC is what pissed me off. That was only a civilian target, and it had no military function whatsoever

The world TRADE center was also a symbol of Americas multinational corporations that are raping poor countries around the world.
Also note that "our troops" have killed tens of thousands of INNOCENT CIVILIANS in both Afganistan and Iraq.
I downloaded from a site called www.ogrish.com a video taken from a F14 of the pilot shooting down a mass of unarmed civilians as they fled a building, he seemed to enjoy killing people from a safe distance.

Surley you have seen the images of the "suspected terroist" in Abu gabi prison piled up naked with hoods on their heads, others being terrorized by a vicious dog, and their dead tortured bodies after "our troops" had finished with them and many other atrocities?

Purposeful targeting of an un-armed, non-combatant, civilian population is the lowest action one can take when engaging in warfare.

Your right and "our troops" have been guilty of that, and they even recorded their atrocious acts on video!!
Now of course their cameras have been taken away from them so the vicious acts they are STILL doing to "suspects" can no longer be recorded and brought up as evidence against them and "our" government.
That's some of the reasons I still concider the US a rogue state.

This may seem stupid, but I relate to America more as a feeling of unity, security, freedom, honesty, respect, and patriotism more than I do with the physical beings who supposedly represent those ideals. The persons supposed to be representing those ideals are failing at their jobs, and they are turning the America I once knew into a steaming pile of horse fecal matter. I have an allegiance to the flag of this country, and all the principals for which it stands, but I have no allegiance to the government. As far as I am concerned, the government can kiss my anus with some tongue to get the full experience.

We may claim to have noble intentions but a country should be judged by how it ACTS not by what it says, and our actions are not those intended by the founders of this country and because to me, the flag represents what the country has become, I cannot respect it and what it currently stands for, imperialism, fascistim, corporate dominence, colonialism and brutal military dominence.
Indeed America has become a big stinking pile of Sh*t and they should have to kiss all of our a*ses after we have eaten asparagus to get the full experience of how we feel about those currenly in power, may they smell long and deep forever!
No your not stupid. :D

[buster]

People who don't own the land they work tend to abuse that land and not improve it because they cannot fully profit from their efforts.That's why communes have nearly allways failed, too many takers and not enough workers.

You are under the impression that capitalism puts the land in the hands of the people who work the fields?

Novel outlook.

[k_semler]

I already have several. I especially like the AR-15.

Heh heh heh , I have a AR-15-A and a nice big banana clip!!

But I don't blast innocent wildlife with it.

OK , I only shoot them if they are in the trees above my house, because they excrete fecal matter over everything, and make the property look like what is excreted out of their anus. If they are in the field, then I honestly do not care.

Yes, they may only use rhetoric, but thoughts lead to speech, speech leads to consideration, consideration leads to though, and thought leads to more speech and the beginning of action

So far all I have seen from the Dem's is talk, never any action that benefits the people who need help.

I do. I consider the CPUSA to be on the far end of the left. If they got their way, then the whole United States would be a communistic nation. As a matter of fact, here is their website: http://www.cpusa.org

At this rate, this nation will be bankrupt and in an economic collapse unlike any seen in the history of the world

Who ever runs this country will see a economic collapse because of our huge trade and fiscal deficits, then add peak oil on top of that and you can see the future and it's not a bed of roses.
Buy gold.

I fear that you are right. With a several trillion national debit, there is virtually no hope of ever getting out of the red and into the black. When a person does this, their non-essential items are repossessed, and the person is forced to declare bankruptcy. Will the IMF foreclose on the US? they did so on Argentina. Here is a very good site detailing the Argentinean debacle: http://www.verdant.net/argentina.htm The only thing

I would disagree with you on is purchasing gold. What benefit does gold have? I cannot eat, drink, or make clothes out of gold, so what use is it in a complete collapse situation? I think a system of barter and trade is far more sustainable, as the items that would be up for trade are of actual value, and would contribute to survival. Gold is only a good means of trade if there is not a 100% collapse situation.

According to Marx, the government is essentially an instrument of class based oppression, and the final Communistic state which finally emerges in the final step in the evolutionary process is with no class, and no money. No money is necessary because every individual only takes what he needs to survive, and contributes all he possibly can back to the economic system. Property is also held in common possession, all land becomes the property of everyone, and also of no one.

Well then why did our government insist that the former Soviet Union was a "Communist" state? Using Marx's definition, there has never been a communist state.
And I see some glaring weakness in Marx's version of communism, there are too many people who take but refuse to contribute to society.
People who don't own the land they work tend to abuse that land and not improve it because they cannot fully profit from their efforts.That's why communes have nearly always failed, too many takers and not enough workers.

You are correct. There never has been a true communist state established 100% in accordance with Karl Marx's The Communist Manifesto. You are also correct in stating that there is too much emphasis on the capability of the individual to participate in accordance with the manifesto. Humans by nature are selfish competitive animals that will take any advantage that they possibly can, and the communistic form of self-governance runs contrary to the human psyche.

I would like to re-classify my comparison of the republicans then. I will re-classify them as Corporatist.

I would add the "Repuglicrats" to that short list as well.

:D LOL!

The attack on the WTC is what pissed me off. That was only a civilian target, and it had no military function whatsoever

The world TRADE center was also a symbol of Americas multinational corporations that are raping poor countries around the world.

I am aware of what the WTO and IMF practice in 3rd world countries, but that is still no excuse for the direct targeting of civilian populations. If the goal was to cripple the American economy, a far better target would have been Hoover Dam, or Grand Coulée Dam. If either of these dams were breeched, it would create a cascade effect downstream, and blow out every single dam until it eventually dumped into the ocean. The lack of electrical energy would have had a far greater impact on the American nation than the WTC was, and a minimum amount of lives would be lost. It would maybe kill 10-20 people, but half of the nation's electrical generation capacity would have been eliminated, and many states would have been in the dark until the critical infrastructure was rebuilt.

Also note that "our troops" have killed tens of thousands of INNOCENT CIVILIANS in both Afghanistan and Iraq.
I downloaded from a site called www.ogrish.com a video taken from a F14 of the pilot shooting down a mass of unarmed civilians as they fled a building, he seemed to enjoy killing people from a safe distance.

Surly you have seen the images of the "suspected terrorist" in Abu garahb prison piled up naked with hoods on their heads, others being terrorized by a vicious dog, and their dead tortured bodies after "our troops" had finished with them and many other atrocities?

So do you throw out a whole barrel of apples just because a few on the bottom of the barrel have become rotten? I would hope not. I would hope that you just remove the rotten apples from the barrel, and preserve the rest of the stock. We have done this in both of the above mentioned situations, so the problem has been solved. Lindy England, (the one holding the dog leash on the naked prisoner), if convicted, faces 20 years to life in prison, along with a dishonorable discharge. I would consider this adequate punishment for the deeds that were done.

Purposeful targeting of an un-armed, non-combatant, civilian population is the lowest action one can take when engaging in warfare.

Your right and "our troops" have been guilty of that, and they even recorded their atrocious acts on video!!

See above paragraph.

Now of course their cameras have been taken away from them so the vicious acts they are STILL doing to "suspects" can no longer be recorded and brought up as evidence against them and "our" government.
That's some of the reasons I still conceder the US a rogue state.

I will admit that this is very peculiar, but a person is not allowed to bring in any recording device into even a civilian prison in the United States. There is still security camera footage available from the prisons if the government so wishes to monitor them, so I am quite sure that the prison guards are quite aware of the punishments if they decide to engage in such activities in the future.

This may seem stupid, but I relate to America more as a feeling of unity, security, freedom, honesty, respect, and patriotism more than I do with the physical beings who supposedly represent those ideals. The persons supposed to be representing those ideals are failing at their jobs, and they are turning the America I once knew into a steaming pile of horse fecal matter. I have an allegiance to the flag of this country, and all the principals for which it stands, but I have no allegiance to the government. As far as I am concerned, the government can kiss my anus with some tongue to get the full experience.

We may claim to have noble intentions but a country should be judged by how it ACTS not by what it says, and our actions are not those intended by the founders of this country and because to me, the flag represents what the country has become, I cannot respect it and what it currently stands for, imperialism, fascism, corporate dominance, colonialism and brutal military dominance.
Indeed America has become a big stinking pile of Sh*t and they should have to kiss all of our a*ses after we have eaten asparagus to get the full experience of how we feel about those currently in power, may they smell long and deep forever!

I agree that the government is hypocritical, and is in need of drastic reform. The government employs fewer than 4,000,000 persons, and as such, is less than 1% of the nation's population. The actions of a minority do not represent a majority. Yes, the government may be corrupt, militaristic, imperialist, and borderline fascistic, but the general population is not. I do not condemn all black persons because of the actions of the Black Panthers, and I do not condemn whites because of the actions of the Klu Klux Klan or Neo-Nazis. So why condemn a whole country for the actions of such a minority that makes up less than 2% of the population? It sounds like a repeat of throwing out the whole barrel because of 2 rotten apples. We only need to dispose of the rotten fruit, and the rest of the fruit is just fine. If the populous so desired, a replay of 1776 could be initiated, and just by the sheer numbers, we would win. The government would not nuke their own population, because then they would have no nation to govern. Just look at what happened with Vietnam, we won every single military engagement, yet the NVA won the war. It is amazing what lack of troop support, and anti-war propaganda can accomplish for the enemy. The very definition of sedition is defined as: "Actions or speech promoting resistance insurrection, or resistance against a government." Treason is defined as: The offense of attempting to overthrow the government of one's country, or of assisting and comforting its enemies in war." As such, the actions of the liberal media during the 1960's during the Vietnam era, and during the war today, are at least seditious, if not borderline treason. The maximum fine for treason is death, but I do not feel that their actions are deserving of this penalty. I do feel that prosecution under the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 would be a proper recourse. http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/alsedact.htm

Alien Act of 1798

SECTION 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That whenever there shall be a declared war between the United States and any foreign nation or government, or any invasion or predatory incursion shall be perpetrated, attempted, or threatened against the territory of the United States, by any foreign nation or government, and the President of the United States shall make public proclamation of the event, all natives, citizens, denizens, or subjects of the hostile nation or government, being males of the age of fourteen years and up-wards, who shall be within the United States, and not actually naturalized, shall be liable to be apprehended, restrained, secured and removed, as alien enemies. And the President of the United States shall be, and he is hereby authorized, in any event, as aforesaid, by his proclamation thereof, or other public act, to direct the conduct to be observed, on the part of the United States, toward the aliens who shall become liable, as aforesaid; the manner and degree of the restraint to which they shall be subject, and in what cases, and upon what security their residence shall be permitted, and to provide for the removal of those, who, not being permitted to reside within the United States, shall refuse or neglect to depart therefrom; and to establish any other regulations which shall be found necessary in the premises and for the public safety: Provided, that aliens resident within the United States, who shall become liable as enemies, in the manner aforesaid, and who shall not be chargeable with actual hostility, or other crime against the public safety, shall be allowed, for the recovery, disposal, and removal of their goods and effects, and for their departure, the full time which is, or shall be stipulated by any treaty, where any shall have been between the United States, and the hostile nation or government, of which they shall be natives, citizens, denizens or subjects: and where no such treaty shall have existed, the President of the United States may ascertain and declare such reasonable time as may be consistent with the public safety, and according to the dictates of humanity and national hospitality.

SEC. 2. And be it further enacted, That after any proclamation shall be made as aforesaid, it shall be the duty of the several courts of the United States, and of each state, having criminal jurisdiction, and of the several judges and justices of the courts of the United States, and they shall be, and are hereby respectively, authorized upon complaint, against any alien or alien enemies, as aforesaid, who shall be resident and at large within such jurisdiction or district, to the danger of the public peace or safety, and contrary to the tenor or intent of such proclamation, or other regulations which the President of the United States shall and may establish in the premises, to cause such alien or aliens to be duly apprehended and convened before such court, judge or justice; and after a full examination and hearing on such complaint. and sufficient cause therefor appearing, shall and may order such alien or aliens to be removed out of the territory of the United States, or to give sureties of their good behaviour, or to be otherwise restrained, conformably to the proclamation or regulations which shall and may be established as aforesaid, and may imprison, or otherwise secure such alien or aliens, until the order which shall and may be made, as aforesaid, shall be performed.

SEC. 3. And be it further enacted, That it shall be the duty of the marshal of the district in which any alien enemy shall be apprehended, who by the President of the United States, or by order of any court, judge or justice, as aforesaid, shall be required to depart, and to be removed, as aforesaid, to provide therefor, and to execute such order, by himself or his deputy, or other discreet person or persons to be employed by him, by causing a removal of such alien out of the territory of the United States; and for such removal the marshal shall have the warrant of the President of the United States, or of the court, judge or justice ordering the same, as the case may be.

APPROVED, July 6, 1798.


Sediton Act of 1798

SECTION 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That if any persons shall unlawfully combine or conspire together, with intent to oppose any measure or measures of the government of the United States, which are or shall be directed by proper authority, or to impede the operation of any law of the United States, or to intimidate or prevent any person holding a place or office in or under the government of the United States, from undertaking, performing or executing his trust or duty, and if any person or persons, with intent as aforesaid, shall counsel, advise or attempt to procure any insurrection, riot, unlawful assembly, or combination, whether such conspiracy, threatening, counsel, advice, or attempt shall have the proposed effect or not, he or they shall be deemed guilty of a high misdemeanor, and on conviction, before any court of the United States having jurisdiction thereof, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars, and by imprisonment during a term not less than six months nor exceeding five years; and further, at the discretion of the court may be ho]den to find sureties for his good behaviour in such sum, and for such time, as the said court may direct.

SEC. 2. And be it farther enacted, That if any person shall write, print, utter or publish, or shall cause or procure to be written, printed, uttered or published, or shall knowingly and willingly assist or aid in writing, printing, uttering or publishing any false, scandalous and malicious writing or writings against the government of the United States, or either house of the Congress of the United States, or the President of the United States, with intent to defame the said government, or either house of the said Congress, or the said President, or to bring them, or either of them, into contempt or disrepute; or to excite against them, or either or any of them, the hatred of the good people of the United States, or to stir up sedition within the United States, or to excite any unlawful combinations therein, for opposing or resisting any law of the United States, or any act of the President of the United States, done in pursuance of any such law, or of the powers in him vested by the constitution of the United States, or to resist, oppose, or defeat any such law or act, or to aid, encourage or abet any hostile designs of any foreign nation against United States, their people or government, then such person, being thereof convicted before any court of the United States having jurisdiction thereof, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding two thousand dollars, and by imprisonment not exceeding two years.

SEC. 3. And be it further enacted and declared, That if any person shall be prosecuted under this act, for the writing or publishing any libel aforesaid, it shall be lawful for the defendant, upon the trial of the cause, to give in evidence in his defence, the truth of the matter contained in Republication charged as a libel. And the jury who shall try the cause, shall have a right to determine the law and the fact, under the direction of the court, as in other cases.

SEC. 4. And be it further enacted, That this act shall continue and be in force until the third day of March, one thousand eight hundred and one, and no longer: Provided, that the expiration of the act shall not prevent or defeat a prosecution and punishment of any offence against the law, during the time it shall be in force.

APPROVED, July 14, 1798.

The only thing that would need to be changed is section four, and this would still be possible to execute.

No your not stupid. :D

Thanks.

[k_semler]

I almost forgot to point you to the complete text of the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx: http://www.bibliomania.com/2/1/261/2448/frameset.html .

[sheilach]

Here is a very good site detailing the Argentinean debacle: http://www.verdant.net/argentina.htm The only thing

I would disagree with you on is purchasing gold. What benefit does gold have? I cannot eat, drink, or make clothes out of gold, so what use is it in a complete collapse situation? I think a system of barter and trade is far more sustainable, as the items that would be up for trade are of actual value, and would contribute to survival. Gold is only a good means of trade if there is not a 100% collapse situation

I see the people of Argentina went through hell when their currency collapsed and the same could happen here!

As for gold, while it's true you cannot eat it, wear it or use it to keep you warm it has always been of great value when the currency is devalued and I think that's what will happen to the dollar.Gold will retain it's value even as dollars become worthless.

For trade or barter to work, you have to have something of value that the other person wants like gold, silver, food, wood, or labor.
If your a old lady and don't have a wood lot or a farm, what do you have to barter with unless you have gold??
Remember the "golden rule"? those who have the gold-RULE!
That's always been true, gold has always been of value when a economy crashes.I'm too old to labor, I don't have much else of value to trade, I cannot make tools, or weave cloth to trade, I would have little food to trade so what's left for me but gold and silver?

I am aware of what the WTO and IMF practice in 3rd world countries, but that is still no excuse for the direct targeting of civilian populations. If the goal was to cripple the American economy, a far better target would have been Hoover Dam, or Grand Coulée Dam. If either of these dams were breeched, it would create a cascade effect downstream, and blow out every single dam until it eventually dumped into the ocean

I'm not excusing what was done to the World Trade center and the thousand of innocent people who died there, but it also doesn't excuse us from the killing of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis and Afganies.

My favorite target IF I was a terrorist wouldn't be the dams, it would be the oil terminals and refineries! Take out those and you leave millions of people freezing in the dark for a long time.You would cripple transport and the chemical industry as well as manufacturing, the more refineries you could take out the more disasterous the effect.
The convenient thing is is that the refineries are located close to major ports, another major military target!
Of course I'm not a terrorist and I don't support terrorist.

Hydroelectric dams supply only a small fraction of our energy, most of our energy is generated by coal,gas and oil fired plants.The only advantage to targeting dams is that they are usually far from cities and thus less protected from sabotage.

So do you throw out a whole barrel of apples just because a few on the bottom of the barrel have become rotten? I would hope not. I would hope that you just remove the rotten apples from the barrel, and preserve the rest of the stock. We have done this in both of the above mentioned situations, so the problem has been solved

Problem solved? I strongly doubt it, all it means is that the troops dumb enough to film their activities and get caught were tried and sentenced and now there will be no more evidence of continuing atrocities, it will be kept from the press and any evidence will be buried.

I think most of the "troops" are decent people, but a few bad apples can indeed "spoil the barrel" especially if their in command and military recruits are expected to obey orders or else!
During a war, a soldier could be shot if he disobeyed an order and it wasn't uncommon for a unpopular officer to be shot dead by a "sniper" that was in fact one of his own men.

I will admit that this is very peculiar, but a person is not allowed to bring in any recording device into even a civilian prison in the United States. There is still security camera footage available from the prisons if the government so wishes to monitor them, so I am quite sure that the prison guards are quite aware of the punishments if they decide to engage in such activities in the future.

I think the government is quite aware of what is going on in it's prisons and will only punish a guard if they are caught by the press and outed.
Torture and abuse of "terrorist suspects" is CONDONED by this criminal government!
Our pretence to be a law abiding, democracy is a FRONT, a false face we put on to fool the citizens and the world, but today, no country can completely hide it's activities and the world press covers our evil acts better than the domestic press does, that's why so many American can't understand why this country is so much hated around the world.
There is a reason, but our press rarely covers it.

"our troops" continue to kill innocent civilians and destroy their homes and businesses in Afganestan and Iraq.

Just following "orders".

That's the same excuse the troops in the nazi military used, we were just following orders.

I agree that the government is hypocritical, and is in need of drastic reform. The government employs fewer than 4,000,000 persons, and as such, is less than 1% of the nation's population. The actions of a minority do not represent a majority. Yes, the government may be corrupt, militaristic, imperialist, and borderline fascistic, but the general population is not.

I don't think the general public is aware what is being done in their name by this government and I also think most Americans are decent people who have been deceived by the propaganda put forth by the government in the corporate controlled press.
They believe what the government has told us about Iraqs weapons of mass destruction, that it was connected to al quada and the attack on 9/11 and they believe Iraq was a imminent danger to us because Bush and Cheney said so.
They refuse to believe "their" government would lie to them and the world, but it DID lie and those lies have been exposed, but most Americans don't follow the news very well so they haven't heard of that or refuse to accept it.

If the populous so desired, a replay of 1776 could be initiated, and just by the sheer numbers, we would win. The government would not nuke their own population, because then they would have no nation to govern.

We may outnumber them but this isn't 1776, and they have millions of well trained (brainwashed) military personal to man their weapons of mass destruction and they don't need to "nuke" us to defeat any uprising, they could use chemical weapons that would kill and maim people but leave the infrastructure intact.

The murder of a few million of Americans would hardly be noticed since we are overpopulated with 290 million people.But the violence the government did would discourage any further resistance, at least for a while.
Only if the military joins the civilians in overthrowing the government could we "win", but who knows what would follow the collapse of the current regime.
From the "declaration of independence-
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "

This form of Government is destructive to these ends, we are NOT permitted to pursue happiness as WE define it, we are not entitled to life and liberty and certainly much of what this government has and is doing is without the consent of the governed and in spite of the protests of the people.

I would still suggest that you buy some gold or silver in the event the dollar collapses or we enter another great depression both of which IMHO is possible and soon.

[k_semler]

Here is a very good site detailing the Argentinean debacle: http://www.verdant.net/argentina.htm The only thing

I would disagree with you on is purchasing gold. What benefit does gold have? I cannot eat, drink, or make clothes out of gold, so what use is it in a complete collapse situation? I think a system of barter and trade is far more sustainable, as the items that would be up for trade are of actual value, and would contribute to survival. Gold is only a good means of trade if there is not a 100% collapse situation

I see the people of Argentina went through hell when their currency collapsed and the same could happen here!

As for gold, while it's true you cannot eat it, wear it or use it to keep you warm it has always been of great value when the currency is devalued and I think that's what will happen to the dollar.Gold will retain it's value even as dollars become worthless.

For trade or barter to work, you have to have something of value that the other person wants like gold, silver, food, wood, or labor.
If your a old lady and don't have a wood lot or a farm, what do you have to barter with unless you have gold??

Yes, it does appear that their countrymen are royally screwed when it comes to economic status. Until finding this site, I had no idea how bad the Argentinean situation was. All of this because of the greed of the IMF and WTO. I fear that the USD is on the same path, and it will not be able to keep its current status as the world currency.

Yes, it is true for a barter and trade system to work, there must be an item that the other person is willing to receive in exchange for the item that you desire to obtain. If you are short on material goods, you will always have at least one thing to exchange for products. It is called labor. A very lenient person, (or a fool), is easy to take advantage of, and if you only trade services with fools, you will be very well off. Such as when I was in high school, I traded my uncle 1 hour worth of work for 3 gallons of gasoline, but since he did not have a meter, he just estimated the proper amount. At the time I had a car with a 25 gallon fuel tank, and before the fill up, I had one eighth of a tank of gasoline. After the payment of gasoline to me, I had 3/4 of a tank of gasoline. Working for fools does have an advantage in favor of the less foolish person.

Remember the "golden rule"? those who have the gold-RULE!
That's always been true, gold has always been of value when a economy crashes.I'm too old to labor, I don't have much else of value to trade, I cannot make tools, or weave cloth to trade, I would have little food to trade so what's left for me but gold and silver?

This is true that silver, gold, copper, nickel, and other rare metals have been used as a currency throughout all recorded civilization, but the metal is only a good trading medium if the party that you are attempting to purchase from is willing to accept some of your metal for goods or services that will sustain or ease your life. If a person is not willing to trade you a quart of milk for 20 ounces of gold, you are SOL, unless you are willing to steal that quart of milk from the producer. Rare metals, like any other trade-able good, only work as a medium of exchange if both parties involved associate some value with it.

I am aware of what the WTO and IMF practice in 3rd world countries, but that is still no excuse for the direct targeting of civilian populations. If the goal was to cripple the American economy, a far better target would have been Hoover Dam, or Grand Coulée Dam. If either of these dams were breeched, it would create a cascade effect downstream, and blow out every single dam until it eventually dumped into the ocean

I'm not excusing what was done to the World Trade center and the thousand of innocent people who died there, but it also doesn't excuse us from the killing of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis and Afghanis.

My favorite target IF I was a terrorist wouldn't be the dams, it would be the oil terminals and refineries! Take out those and you leave millions of people freezing in the dark for a long time.You would cripple transport and the chemical industry as well as manufacturing, the more refineries you could take out the more disastrous the effect.
The convenient thing is is that the refineries are located close to major ports, another major military target!
Of course I'm not a terrorist and I don't support terrorist.

This would also be a very good target, as would any nuclear generation facility, or other high impact areas. Fort Knox would also be a very good economic target, as it has an incredible amount of gold that would be melted to useless pools, and contaminated if subjected to a high enough temperature for a long enough duration, or subjected to an explosion of significant size, it would also provide value as a prime target to generate shrapnel.

Hydroelectric dams supply only a small fraction of our energy, most of our energy is generated by coal,gas and oil fired plants.The only advantage to targeting dams is that they are usually far from cities and thus less protected from sabotage.

Destruction of a large amount of dams would also devastate quite a bit of farmland, ruin irrigation, and eliminate flood control. It would be an attack that would have impact on many levels of the economy and population, yet it could be executed with minimal effort.

So do you throw out a whole barrel of apples just because a few on the bottom of the barrel have become rotten? I would hope not. I would hope that you just remove the rotten apples from the barrel, and preserve the rest of the stock. We have done this in both of the above mentioned situations, so the problem has been solved

Problem solved? I strongly doubt it, all it means is that the troops dumb enough to film their activities and get caught were tried and sentenced and now there will be no more evidence of continuing atrocities, it will be kept from the press and any evidence will be buried.

Yes, I will agree that the prison guards that are guilty of these crimes were very foolish in filming themselves committing these acts, but it proved to be a benefit to the prosecuting attorney, and a negative factor to the defense. Most criminals are stupid, they make mistakes. Hoodlums filming their crimes in action are foolhardy, but they also ease the burden on the prosecution. Not many people of any intellect will engage in such activities, much less film them. We are better off eliminating the undisciplined troops, than having the liability issue of keeping them actively participating in the military.

I think most of the "troops" are decent people, but a few bad apples can indeed "spoil the barrel" especially if their in command and military recruits are expected to obey orders or else!
During a war, a soldier could be shot if he disobeyed an order and it wasn't uncommon for a unpopular officer to be shot dead by a "sniper" that was in fact one of his own men.

Persons enlisted in the military are not only recommended to disobey illegal orders, but required to do so. If a solider receives an order to rape a woman, kill her, and eat her, that would be a very illegal order. By obeying illegal orders, the solider no longer places the superior responsible for his actions, but he is also responsible for his actions. Disobeying illegal orders is a standing statue in the Unites States military. As far as the sniper issue, all I have to say is that murders happen regardless of where you are located in the world. Yes, I happen to live in a town that has not had a murder in the last 30 years, but the point is that it does happen occasionally. Theft on the other hand, is quite a common occurrence around here, and we have measures in place to deal with that issue.

I will admit that this is very peculiar, but a person is not allowed to bring in any recording device into even a civilian prison in the United States. There is still security camera footage available from the prisons if the government so wishes to monitor them, so I am quite sure that the prison guards are quite aware of the punishments if they decide to engage in such activities in the future.

I think the government is quite aware of what is going on in it's prisons and will only punish a guard if they are caught by the press and outed.
Torture and abuse of "terrorist suspects" is CONDONED by this criminal government!

Do you mean such actions as failing to protect inmates from one another, and only seeking to keep the criminals contained within the prison? If this is what you are speaking of, then I would agree with you. I disagree with you on the issue that torture is occurring at the hands of prison guards. It may happen at the hands of fellow inmates, (as in forceful anal penetration with the male reproductive organ), but at worst, the worst crime that the guards could be prosecuted for is gross negligence resulting in a death, or more likely, just a dereliction of duty charge resulting in termination from their positing.

Our pretense to be a law abiding, democracy is a FRONT, a false face we put on to fool the citizens and the world, but today, no country can completely hide it's activities and the world press covers our evil acts better than the domestic press does, that's why so many American can't understand why this country is so much hated around the world.

Really? So, what did North Korea do today to their latest political prisoner? When was the last recorded state sanctioned murder in Cuba? Have any other state sanctioned murders occurred since then that have not been recorded? If not, how do you know? If so, what are your sources? My point is, that if a government wants a particular item to remain secret, they have measures to ensure that it does. There is a reason why issues are classified as "Authorized Personnel Only", "Classified". "Secret", and "Top Secret". And each classification level has many sub-levels such as 1 through 5. If such details are leaked to the public of classified materials, it is not very difficult to trace the leak back to the source, and eliminate the offending threat. Whether it is charges of espionage, charges of treason, or an unofficially authorized execution, channels exist to eliminate any possible threats to national security.

There is a reason, but our press rarely covers it.

"our troops" continue to kill innocent civilians and destroy their homes and businesses in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Just following "orders".
That's the same excuse the troops in the Nazi military used, we were just following orders.

See above comment about illegal orders.

I agree that the government is hypocritical, and is in need of drastic reform. The government employs fewer than 4,000,000 persons, and as such, is less than 1% of the nation's population. The actions of a minority do not represent a majority. Yes, the government may be corrupt, militaristic, imperialist, and borderline fascistic, but the general population is not.

I don't think the general public is aware what is being done in their name by this government and I also think most Americans are decent people who have been deceived by the propaganda put forth by the government in the corporate controlled press.
They believe what the government has told us about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, that it was connected to al Quaeda and the attack on 9/11 and they believe Iraq was a imminent danger to us because Bush and Cheney said so.
They refuse to believe "their" government would lie to them and the world, but it DID lie and those lies have been exposed, but most Americans don't follow the news very well so they haven't heard of that or refuse to accept it.

Very true, the masses are very trusting of their government, regardless of the country. I blame this on the restricted methods of attaining news, and also on the desire of the populous to remain ignorant. I suspect this is why S/W radios cost quite a bit of money even used, while a 21 inch televison can be bought for under $100.00. People are more likely to spend $100 on a televison over a radio merely because of the perceived value. When most persons think of radio communications, I assume they associate it with commercial music stations, or CB radio. To the average citizen, a television has more value, as they get news from "trusted" sources, and there is a perceived wider range of programming.

Although I know this to be untrue, the masses believe that they are actually getting a truthful view of the news from ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, and the rest of the American media outlets. Little do they know, that if they were to listen to Radio Australia International, BBC, Radio Netherlands, China Radio International English, VOA, and other SW broadcasts, they would be far better informed then they would with only having access to domestic media, and would have a more truthful picture of the news around the world.

I would not trust China Radio International English for Chinese news, as I just got done listening to a half hour piece on how great Ding Jao Ping was for the Chinese people and world, and how he formed the UN in 1989, and persons across the world respect him worldwide, and people in America have pictures of him. I would consider CRI a very pro-communist propaganda station, but with the restrictions in place in China, I imagine they have very little choice in what they broadcast. I still find it very informative, and very interesting to hear a variety of news from a variety of sources. A far more clear view of the world is established as such, and as a bonus, I am no longer subjected to the marketing machine of the American media. I absolutely despise commercials on the radio and televison. If I wanted their products, I would research it myself instead of having their message bombarded on me with no regard to common decency.

If the populous so desired, a replay of 1776 could be initiated, and just by the sheer numbers, we would win. The government would not nuke their own population, because then they would have no nation to govern.

We may outnumber them but this isn't 1776, and they have millions of well trained (brainwashed) military personal to man their weapons of mass destruction and they don't need to "nuke" us to defeat any uprising, they could use chemical weapons that would kill and maim people but leave the infrastructure intact.

The infrastructure may be left intact after a deployment of biological and chemical weapons, but it would also be largely left intact if they were to detonate a neutron bomb over every populated area. My point still stands, what good is a government, if there is no nation to govern?

We could also still win, or at least severely impede a battle with US forces. Remember the Oklahoma City bombing? That was a truck bomb with Ammonium Nitrate used as an explosive*. Imagine 500 Oklahoma City incidents happening at various battlefield locations, (actual combat NOT terrorism), it would absolutely devastate opposing forces. Use a couple tons of this, and you will severely impede your enemy's ability to overtake your position, and severely impact their battlefield operations. Remember the Vietnam war was won by a bunch of guys on bicycles riding the Ho Chi Mihn train.

The murder of a few million of Americans would hardly be noticed since we are overpopulated with 290 million people.But the violence the government did would discourage any further resistance, at least for a while.

Given this logic, why not vaporise Beijing, Hong Kong, Shanghai, and a few other random Chinese cities? After all, they have 1.5 billion people living there, I do not think they would even notice a loss of 750 million Chinese citizens.

Only if the military joins the civilians in overthrowing the government could we "win", but who knows what would follow the collapse of the current regime.

Yes, military support on the side of the rebellion would help immensely, and would be preferable to no support. However, I know a revolution could be won even without support of the US military, I am sure quite a number of other countries across the globe would be more than willing to help out in this scenario.

From the "declaration of independence-
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "

This form of Government is destructive to these ends, we are NOT permitted to pursue happiness as WE define it, we are not entitled to life and liberty and certainly much of what this government has and is doing is without the consent of the governed and in spite of the protests of the people.

I will agree with you, but I do not think I should say anymore than that in an open forum. The walls may have ears. The Tokyo Rose case may ring a bell.

I would still suggest that you buy some gold or silver in the event the dollar collapses or we enter another great depression both of which In my honest opinion is possible and soon.

How would I go about doing this, when all purchases are registered by the United States Reserve, and if necessary, the government can and will repossess all privately held reserves? They did this during the great depression, and it could happen again.

*=I will only disclose this, because it is publicly known that Ammonium Nitrate can be used as a high explosive, but I will not tell you how to obtain, assemble, or otherwise research details pertaining to the use of this substance. The Patriot act II is in effect, and I do not support, condone, or otherwise support unauthorized explosives procurement, manufacturing, assembly, deployment, or detonation.

[sheilach]

Yes, it is true for a barter and trade system to work, there must be an item that the other person is willing to receive in exchange for the item that you desire to obtain. If you are short on material goods, you will always have at least one thing to exchange for products. It is called labor.

As a bummed up old lady, my labor wouldn't be worth much, that's why I would like to have some gold to trade for goods should the doller crash, a event I think is all too likely.In all previous depressions, gold has held it's value as the currency tanked.In post ww1 Germany, people traded with their jewels, precious metal coins, furniture anything but Deutsch marks which were worthless and only usefull for burning to keep warm.
If the gov. wants my gold, the'll have to seach for it but some will be in my safe deposit box in my bank.

Destruction of a large amount of dams would also devastate quite a bit of farmland, ruin irrigation, and eliminate flood control. It would be an attack that would have impact on many levels of the economy and population, yet it could be executed with minimal effort.

I guess we are fourtunate that some environmental extreamists haven't tried that yet!

Persons enlisted in the military are not only recommended to disobey illegal orders, but required to do so. If a solider receives an order to rape a woman, kill her, and eat her, that would be a very illegal order. By obeying illegal orders, the solider no longer places the superior responsible for his actions, but he is also responsible for his actions.

It would still be the officers word against the enlisted person, and if the way some cops get away with mayhem and murder even if video taped, I suspect the enlisted person would have a difficult time convincing the military tribunal that the order they obeyed was given by the officer in charge, and if they refused to obey an illegal order, whats to prevent the officer from simply killing that soldier and claiming he was killed by the enemy or "friendly fire"?

Really? So, what did North Korea do today to their latest political prisoner? When was the last recorded state sanctioned murder in Cuba? Have any other state sanctioned murders occurred since then that have not been recorded? If not, how do you know? If so, what are your sources?

Of course actions done within a totalitarian state can be kept secret, but actions done outside that state in other countries is difficult to keep out of the press because they don't have control of the entire country or it's people, some one will escape and report that illegal action, try escaping from Cuba, North Korea or China, pretty difficult but a few have managed it but by then the news they bring is old news.

How do you prosicute a criminal government?

How can you report events within a totalitarian state and get that information out of that country?

If such details are leaked to the public of classified materials, it is not very difficult to trace the leak back to the source, and eliminate the offending threat. Whether it is charges of espionage, charges of treason, or an unofficially authorized execution, channels exist to eliminate any possible threats to national security.

Exactly!
Governments are very good at making difficult people dissapear.

I suspect this is why S/W radios cost quite a bit of money even used, while a 21 inch televison can be bought for under $100.00. People are more likely to spend $100 on a televison over a radio merely because of the perceived value.

Most people are unaware that SW radio even exists or what can be heard from those broadcasts, and even if they have heard of SW, they believe that it's in a foreign language.
Also SW radio requires finer tuning and a narrower frequency filter for the narrower frequencies that SW broadcasters uses.

Too many people are renters or live in a home with a homeowners association that has banned roof antennas, of course, there is a way around that if the building isn't metal sheathed like a mobile home is.

I absolutely despise commercials on the radio and televison.

Me too! I especially dispise those pop up ads on top of the TV programing, their garish, disfiguring logo's, and constant interuptions for commercials.
I think the FCC should ban that and commercials for prescription drugs!

Of course the FCC has become another corporate puppet.
Their only function is to dumb down the programing to make it "safe" for the little kiddies.

My point still stands, what good is a government, if there is no nation to govern?

It would be mighty difficult for even the American government to wipe out the entire population and besides, they don't need too, just wipe out enough to discourage further resistance.

Imagine 500 Oklahoma City incidents happening at various battlefield locations, (actual combat NOT terrorism), it would absolutely devastate opposing forces. Use a couple tons of this, and you will severely impede your enemy's ability to overtake your position, and severely impact their battlefield operations. Remember the Vietnam war was won by a bunch of guys on bicycles riding the Ho Chi Mihn train.

First you have to organize quite a few people to pull that off and you can be sure government agents would infiltrate such organizations sooner or later and have them rounded up and arrested as "suspect terrorists" and that's the end of that.
Now that the Gov. is aware that citizens know about fertilizer bombs, they keep records of every bulk fertilizer sale.

Given this logic, why not vaporise Beijing, Hong Kong, Shanghai, and a few other random Chinese cities? After all, they have 1.5 billion people living there, I do not think they would even notice a loss of 750 million Chinese citizens

Why "vaporize" the cities?, just wipe out a few million uncoperative people and leave the infrastructure intact to be used by more docile workers.

Yes, military support on the side of the rebellion would help immensely, and would be preferable to no support. However, I know a revolution could be won even without support of the US military, I am sure quite a number of other countries across the globe would be more than willing to help out in this scenario.

Dream on my friend, at present, the US military poses too much of a threat, UNLESS our military is willing to rebel and co-operate with other countries to overthrow this dangerous, rogue government.

Remember how in WW2, little Germany nearly won their war against all of Europe until the US joined the war with their European allies?

I will agree with you, but I do not think I should say anymore than that in an open forum. The walls may have ears.

Indeed, "Asscrack" and his henchmen troll the web for certain words, like rebellion, fertilizer bombs, bombs, revolution, incineraries, etc etc etc.

Tokyo Rose was well known to our troops durring WW2, gave them quite a laugh as she told of the glorious victories of the imperial Japanese fighters and how we should quite fighting and go home to our loved ones.

I will only disclose this, because it is publicly known that Ammonium Nitrate can be used as a high explosive, but I will not tell you how to obtain, assemble, or otherwise research details pertaining to the use of this substance. The Patriot act II is in effect, and I do not support, condone, or otherwise support unauthorized explosives procurement, manufacturing, assembly, deployment, or detonation.

Neither do I, but the information is out there if your willing and brave enough to search for it.
I have found quite a bit of information on the web that tells you how to assemble explosives using commonly available chemicals and equipment, of course I never tried to do any of that, I was merely curious about the subject and no more.
So much for freedom of information!

[Leanan]

Gold held its value because it was still worth something elsewhere in the world. If the entire world economy is crashing, gold might not hold its value.

[sheilach]

Gold held its value because it was still worth something elsewhere in the world. If the entire world economy is crashing, gold might not hold its value.

If history is any indicator, gold will still be more valuable than paper money.
I think we are heading for a economic crash worse than that of the 1930's and gold was still valuable as were gems, jewelry and things that could be traded for something else, even clothing.

I think it will be late in oils decline before the entire world economy crashes.

[Aaron]

In an attempt to drag this thread back on topic...

I wondered if any of our guests come from countries with mandatory military service for all citizens?

Many Americans still have a bad association with the military draft, from the experience of Vietnam, (& not wanting to die of course), but many countries require a period of service for citizens, which is viewed as a normal, and accepted practice unfamiliar to most US citizens.