Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

What's fair?: New theory on income inequality

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: What's fair?: New theory on income inequality

Unread postby Cog » Sat 06 Jun 2015, 08:23:52

Lore wrote:
Cog wrote:
Lore wrote:What did their inheritors do for theirs? Seems like we're bent on creating dynasties once again.

There are also many more people that work physically and mentally much harder for their pay then high paid corporate managers. Think of health care workers. A more important segment of the work force, to me at least, then the a CEO that earns 300 times more then his average employee and pays less taxes for making it.


Somewhere someone is making more money than you. Must be infuriating for you. LOL.

Of what possible concern is it of yours what a CEO makes unless you are a stockholder?


Not at all, I have no problem with people making as much money as fairly as possible.

As far as making money disproportionate to your worth; It robs from everyone.


How are you robbed if XYZ CEO makes 1000X what his lowest paid worker is paid? Is the product or service overpriced? If so, buy your product or service from someone else. Capitalism, in all its forms, it preferable to the wealth re-distribution system you seem to embrace.

And who will decide what a CEO or owner is "fair compensation" A committee of Ivy league economists who have never run a business or perhaps a group of hippies living in a commune? LOL

You guys kill me with your fairness discussions.
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13416
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: What's fair?: New theory on income inequality

Unread postby Cog » Sat 06 Jun 2015, 08:27:50

Sixstrings wrote:The kind of Margaret Thatcher arguments Cog is making, are only valid when labor and "socialism" has gone too far. Then sometimes you need some conservativism.

The problem we have now though, after 35 or whatever years of Ronald Reaganism, is that the pendulum is too far to the RIGHT.

The solution to the current problems though, is to the LEFT.

FDR was the antidote to Hoover.

And that's what the country needs again. Everyone would be better off, even the rich. Though there would be fewer billionaires. But ya know what.. why do any of you want that, anyway? Don't you understand that is feudalism? When each "county" had a castle and a "count" and the count had it all and everyone else were serfs? Is that really what you want?


Your unstated method to do this would be either tax the hell out of the rich(producers) and give the money to those less inspired or just pure lazy, or just mandate what they can make through regulation. Through a government entity that would siphon off their share to pay for the bureaucrats to run that particular freakshow. No thanks. I'll keep the current system that is so unfair to you, that you panic about not getting your share of someone else's wealth and hard work.

Do you leftist every come up with anything more creative than "Tax the rich"?

Eliminate most of government and you won't have to tax anyone. Either rich or poor.

Democrats out of the boardroom and Republicans out of the bedroom. Lets try that on for size.
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13416
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: What's fair?: New theory on income inequality

Unread postby Cog » Sat 06 Jun 2015, 10:05:38

GASMON wrote:If everyone, persons and corporations etc paid their due tax bills and were not allowed to "offshore" vast amounts of tax-free capital, this alone would solve a multitude of every countries financial problems.

Joe six pack, you, me, we get away with Zilch to the taxman. Why should the rich so profit tax free ?

Gas


Then why tax the middle class or the poor at all? How frigging large do you want the government to be. Lets not forget who the money belongs to. It belongs to the individual or the corporation. You sound like a another big government guy. Get rid of big government and you won't have to tax anyone.
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13416
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: What's fair?: New theory on income inequality

Unread postby Lore » Sat 06 Jun 2015, 12:28:43

Cog wrote:How are you robbed if XYZ CEO makes 1000X what his lowest paid worker is paid? Is the product or service overpriced? If so, buy your product or service from someone else. Capitalism, in all its forms, it preferable to the wealth re-distribution system you seem to embrace.


Obviously you haven't looked deep enough into the problem.

I'll use Mitt Romney as an example since his wealth and career record have been pretty much open for scrutiny. Mitt makes around 20 million a year almost all from investments. When asked the question how many cars he owned. He replied with two for himself and two for his wife. American brands of course. Now here is a man whose net worth is something between 200 - 300 million that makes a huge yearly income and only owns 4 vehicles. Now if we were to take that 20 million and spread it over the average working wage you could expect something like 400 autos being sold and used. That puts a lot of people to work and money flowing to all avenues of the economy. Even with that it would still leave ole Mitt a millionaire.

It's really simple math to see that the multiplier effect of distributing wealth returns more to everyone. Its impossible for a small percentage at the the top accumulating the world's money to spread that across any given economy in a meaningful way that would even come close to the trickle-around effect of the average person spending their income on goods and services. Not to mention when guys like Mitt only pay less then 14% on all that income in taxes you then begin to also realize that the average worker is responsible for paying a disproportionate amount for supporting federal, state and local services that we all enjoy.

Now to be fair the wealthy do pay a huge amount of taxes compared to the bottom tiers. Some of which are in the negative, but relative to how much they earn it becomes a greater burden on smaller wage earners.

Cog wrote:And who will decide what a CEO or owner is "fair compensation" A committee of Ivy league economists who have never run a business or perhaps a group of hippies living in a commune? LOL

You guys kill me with your fairness discussions.


Again, pretty simple actually, cap the ratio of the highest salary to its lowest salary. For instance, Whole Foods Market, caps its highest salary at 19 times the average employee pay.

What's funny, if not hypocritical, is that many of those that promote the skies the limit in wealth growth are the same people that howl like jackals when addressing increases in the minimum wage.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
User avatar
Lore
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9021
Joined: Fri 26 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Fear Of A Blank Planet

Work Is the First Step to Ending Poverty

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 12 Jun 2015, 17:14:19

I have a not-so-new theory of income inequality: The upper income classes work harder than the lower income classes.

Even President Barack Obama recently acknowledged what every sane person knows to be true: the best anti-poverty program is a job. Obama said this at a recent conference on poverty.

But he continues to repeat a falsehood over and over. This is the claim that the poor work just as hard as the rich do. Well, yes, many people in poor households heroically work very hard at low wages to take care of their families. No doubt about that. Yet the average poor family doesn't work nearly as much as the rich families do. And that's a key reason why these households are poor.

The most recent Census Bureau data on household incomes document the importance of work. Census sorts the households by income quintile, and we will label those in the highest quintile as "rich," and those in the lowest quintile as "poor." The average household in the top 20 percent of income has an average of almost exactly two full-time workers. The average poor family (bottom 20 percent) has just 0.4 workers. This means on average, roughly for every hour worked by those in a poor household, those in a rich household work five hours. The idea that the rich are idle bondholders who play golf at the country club or go to the spa every day while the poor toil isn't accurate.

The finding that 6 in 10 poor households have no one working at all is disturbing. Since they have no income from work, is it a surprise they are poor?

As for rich households, 75 percent have two or more workers. For the poor households that percent is less than 5 percent.

Now, of course, hours worked doesn't account for all or even most of the gap between rich and poor. But it does account for some of it. One of the more pernicious concepts is the notion of "dead-end jobs." No, the surefire economic dead end is no job at all. There's no climbing the economic ladder if you're not even on the first rung.
.
.
.


http://www.creators.com/conservative/stephen-moore/work-is-the-first-step-to-ending-poverty.html

Secondly, your income as an employee is pretty much proportional to the value of your work as an employee. I just finished a 36+ year career as an Electrical Engineer in the computing field. I was earning a six figure income - and I emphasize "earning" - even after my own technical education was stale, by teaching younger, fresher engineers the design process and the work ethic I used.

Note that in 36 years, I never had to compete with anybody without an Engineering Degree. Most of the modern professions are that way. YES you absolutely can earn a higher income without an education, by working LOTS harder.

Education plays a vital role in your value, both perceived and actual. I paid for undergraduate degrees for both my wife and daughter, and there were month-long stretches where all three of us worked before the kid left home, and years-long stretches after that when all three of us were working, and paying mortgages, and buying cars and tech toys. Then the daughter married, and worked along with her husband.

It is sometimes hard to relate sitting in a windowless temporary classroom in Virginia, discussing Melville who is writing about whale blubber, as a necessary step in earning a living. But it is that, as is Algebra and Chemistry and other topics I do not doubt, you didn't understand the need for when you studied them. Not understanding why you are studying is a poor reason to drop out of school and drastically curtail your income earning potential.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: What's fair?: New theory on income inequality

Unread postby Graeme » Fri 19 Jun 2015, 20:04:22

A Measured Approach to Ending Poverty and Boosting Shared Prosperity

In the past few decades, substantial progress has been made in reducing global poverty. The World Bank assesses poverty by the number of people whose income or consumption falls below a given threshold (box O.3). Between 1990 and 2011, the number of people living in extreme poverty has halved, to around one billion people, or 14.5 percent of the world’s population (17.0 percent of the developing world’s population). While this progress is encouraging, the fact that so many people remain poor is sobering. To estimate the number of people living in extreme poverty, the World Bank currently uses an international poverty line of $1.25 a day, in 2005 prices—a poverty line that corresponds to an average of the national poverty lines of the 15 poorest developing countries.1 That more than a billion people in 2011 eked out a living on such a low threshold living standard makes the need to increase efforts to reduce global poverty self-evident.

Why set the global target for poverty reduction to 3 percent of the world’s population by 2030? The 3 percent target derives from conceptual and empirical considerations. Conceptually, it may be desirable to set a target to eliminate global poverty altogether. However, a global goal of zero poverty would require eliminating poverty in each and every country. Poverty in some countries remains deep and widespread, and it is simply not realistic to expect to be able to eliminate poverty in these countries by 2030. It is also the case that at any moment in time there is likely to be some churning taking place in which some people, possibly for reasons beyond their control, fall into poverty, even if only temporarily. It is thus practical to set a global target close to zero, but which allows for some heterogeneity at the country level.

Empirically, simple back-of-the-envelope simulations can be conducted to assess the plausibility of the goal to end poverty by 2030. When such simulations are based on highly stylized and rather optimistic assumptions—such as stable and continuous annual growth rates in consumption per capita of at least 4 percent in all developing countries and an unchanging distribution of income—then a global poverty rate of 3 percent is achievable. Such analysis suggests that the World Bank’s dream of ending global poverty by 2030 is a highly aspirational objective, but is not entirely beyond reach with concerted efforts and commitment from individual countries as well as the international development community.


worldbank
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13258
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Re: What's fair?: New theory on income inequality

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 19 Jun 2015, 20:14:21

No worries then. Just get the economy growing at 4%+ for the next few decades. Easy peasy.
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9285
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: What's fair?: New theory on income inequality

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Fri 19 Jun 2015, 22:25:55

Cog wrote:If you are in the position to complain about income inequality, it simply means you are a failure in life and need to work harder.

Well paid CEO's are paid the big bucks for a very good reason. They generate far more money for the stock holders then Joe Lunch bucket.

The Highest-Paid CEOs Are The Worst Performers, New Study Says
Across the board, the more CEOs get paid, the worse their companies do over the next three years, according to extensive new research. This is true whether they’re CEOs at the highest end of the pay spectrum or the lowest. “The more CEOs are paid, the worse the firm does over the next three years, as far as stock performance and even accounting performance,” says one of the authors of the study, Michael Cooper of the University of Utah’s David Eccles School of Business.
...
The empirical evidence before fell on both sides of that question, but those studies used small sample sizes. Now Cooper and two professors, one at Purdue and the other at the University of Cambridge, have studied a large data set of the 1,500 companies with the biggest market caps, supplied by a firm called Execucomp. They also looked at pay and company performance in three-year periods over a relatively long time span, from 1994-2013, and compared what are known as firms’ “abnormal” performance, meaning a company’s revenues and profits as compared with like companies in their fields. They were startled to find that the more CEOs got paid, the worse their companies did.

Another counter-intuitive conclusion: The negative effect was most pronounced in the 150 firms with the highest-paid CEOs. The finding is especially surprising given the widespread notion that it’s worth it to pay a premium to superstar CEOs like Jamie Dimon of JPMorgan Chase (who earned $20 million in 2013) or Lloyd Blankfein ($28 million) of Goldman Sachs. ...
Facebook knows you're a dog.
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 7344
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands

Re: What's fair?: New theory on income inequality

Unread postby Cog » Sun 21 Jun 2015, 07:06:02

If the CEO is not performing in accordance with his company's profit picture that is a job for his board of directors and stockholders to correct. Not a job for you and the government to decide what is fair. Unless of course you are a stockholder in the company.
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13416
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: What's fair?: New theory on income inequality

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 21 Jun 2015, 13:54:11

Cog wrote:If the CEO is not performing in accordance with his company's profit picture that is a job for his board of directors and stockholders to correct. Not a job for you and the government to decide what is fair. Unless of course you are a stockholder in the company.

Right. It's just so laughable how the most inefficient entity imaginable, big government, with things like the USPS, the military, and the Capitol Hill clown-fest as prime examples of how "effective" it is with the public dollar is, in the minds of many liberals, the "solution" to problems with private companies.

Let's face it. Even things which the government SHOULD be doing like the functions of the EPA and FDA often look like a disaster whenever a serious problem is looked into via hearings on CSPAN. (If only wearing expensive suits and wasting $BILLIONS on spreadsheets were what the voter needed, that might be different).

The net result of government "helping" would be to make such companies much worse off economically. Of course this is consistent with the results of big government generally and wealth redistribution specifically -- the productivity of the hardest working sacrificed to the unproductive on the altar of "fairness".
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 10142
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 21:26:42
Location: Central KY

Re: What's fair?: New theory on income inequality

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 21 Jun 2015, 16:12:07

Who produces most a farmer or CEO of a payday loan company?

Most CEO's produce zilch!
Live, Love, Learn, Leave Legacy.....oh and have a Laugh while you're doing it!
User avatar
Quinny
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3337
Joined: Thu 03 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: What's fair?: New theory on income inequality

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 21 Jun 2015, 16:38:35

Quinny wrote:Who produces most a farmer or CEO of a payday loan company?

Most CEO's produce zilch!


Most corporations are profitable. Therefore CEO's do produce. You can argue about the value of leadership vs. worker bees, but you cannot argue about profits. CEOs are themselves managed by Boards of Directors, and tasked with making profit.

As I said in a message in another thread, I worked for 37 years and a bit under 11 different CEO's. Two were retired after selling the company to a larger company. Eight were replaced by the BoD for not making enough money. One (Carly Fiorina) was replaced because she frightened the BoD by employing a private detective agency to seek out corrupt members on the BoD who were enriching themselves at the company's expense.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: What's fair?: New theory on income inequality

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 21 Jun 2015, 16:42:20

I'm more interested in real wealth! Think we all should be.
Live, Love, Learn, Leave Legacy.....oh and have a Laugh while you're doing it!
User avatar
Quinny
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3337
Joined: Thu 03 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: What's fair?: New theory on income inequality

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 21 Jun 2015, 16:50:14

Quinny wrote:Who produces most a farmer or CEO of a payday loan company?

Most CEO's produce zilch!

Says you and the typical far left liberal with little understanding of basic economics. The type who believe in forming committees to dictate pay by government force and think that what a CEO and a secretary does are worth the same pay since they both sit at desks, write letters, etc. :roll:

Is there a problem with ineffective regulations on nearly ALL financial service companies in the first world (not just payday loan companies)? Yes. :-x

Do corporate boards often reward CEO's for being unsuccessful? Sadly, yes. :(

Does this mean your average secretary produces more than highly successful CEO's of large productive corporations (even old, poorly run ones like IBM?) Using any actual micro-economic data instead of emotion would say a resounding NO. Hint: the secretary couldn't competently begin to do the CEO's job. Most of us could quickly get up to speed on secretarial skills, or given enough youth and health, basic farming tasks.

Just because a system has flaws doesn't mean there is no rhyme or reason at all.

(If you're talking about your typical run of the mill "drive a tractor and feed the animals" farmer, and not the CEO of a major agri-business, then the farmer's overall output is far more in line with a secretary's than a major corporate CEO).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 10142
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 21:26:42
Location: Central KY

Re: What's fair?: New theory on income inequality

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 21 Jun 2015, 19:12:50

Most CEO's are salespeople. They produce nothing tangible. Not saying they are useless, management is useful.

Always makes me laugh when people talk about how productive a CEO is, surplus value come from workers not from CEO's.

It also makes me laugh when people with no knowledge of economics criticise people with little understanding, especially those who support the right wing neo liberal nonsense peddled by Reagan Thatcher and everyone since.

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.fr/2014/09/recommended-reading-economics.html
Live, Love, Learn, Leave Legacy.....oh and have a Laugh while you're doing it!
User avatar
Quinny
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3337
Joined: Thu 03 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: What's fair?: New theory on income inequality

Unread postby dissident » Sun 21 Jun 2015, 22:40:28

CEO's are the corporate equivalent of politicians.

1) They can always pass the buck. So if the corporation is sinking in red ink they can get enormous bonuses and salaries. They are the ones with "vision" and it is the fault of underlings for "failing to implement" their "vision".
They can keep up with this BS for many years. But most have learned to move around to keep the stink off.

2) They have no checks and balances. So they can give themselves endless pay raises and golden parachutes. Just like politicians.

3) Their jobs are not about business. They leave all the details of actual business planning and product design to underlings. Instead they spend most of their time schmoozing with actual politicians and engaging in fancier aspects of lobbying.

People who look up to CEO's are either idiots or posers. CEO salaries are a direct metric of the corruption of the economy. The more that CEO's make, the poorer everyone else becomes in real and relative terms. As the US middle class has been shrinking, CEO's have been acting more and more like the robber barons of the Gilded Era, including acquiring households full of servants. But unlike the tycoons of the past, these clowns are glorified bureaucrats and nothing more than politicians.
dissident
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6458
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 03:00:00

Re: What's fair?: New theory on income inequality

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 22 Jun 2015, 08:22:43

The real question is not "What's Fair?" The question you should be asking is "Who Decides What's Fair?"
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17063
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: What's fair?: New theory on income inequality

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 22 Jun 2015, 09:11:13

Fair like beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

PreviousNext

Return to Geopolitics & Global Economics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests