[Hawkcreek]

I spent years working and living in Alaska. I think it does have some of the most fantastic scenery available anywhere in the world.
But------it really is freaking cold. Even the native Alaskans usually spend most of their PFD's to go out of state to somewhere warm in the middle of the winter.
Beautiful place, but you have to be a hard-ass to live there full time.
Of course, I think that is why so many Alaskans may like it. The only candy-asses you have to put up with are the tourists, and they all leave when the snow flies.
Plant is right to be proud of the place. But it is not for everyone.

[Lore]

I spent years working and living in Alaska. I think it does have some of the most fantastic scenery available anywhere in the world.
But------it really is freaking cold. Even the native Alaskans usually spend most of their PFD's to go out of state to somewhere warm in the middle of the winter.
Beautiful place, but you have to be a hard-ass to live there full time.
Of course, I think that is why so many Alaskans may like it. The only candy-asses you have to put up with are the tourists, and they all leave when the snow flies.
Plant is right to be proud of the place. But it is not for everyone.

It also makes you a bit strange and unsociable.

[dohboi]

eg wrote: "You are the observer behind your eyes that experiences all these things."

Wake up to find out...well, you know...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCy9k_RWlvA

Lore wrote: "It also makes you a bit strange and unsociable."

I think that's actually an insight into an important aspect of our conundrum and how we got here.

It is those, like Ibon and Hawk and many of the rest of us, who at some point have removed ourselves from the general flow of 'civilization' who have come to see the deep flaws in the whole pattern. Whether we were 'loners' from the beginning, and that's why we isolated ourselves, or if it was the experience of going it solo that made us 'loners,' we are left with our own conundrum:

We are, I do believe the people in society who have some of the most important messages to relay to the rest of society (even if those views differ somewhat in detail or even in deeper ways), but we have grown to be outside that society, so often don't have as dexterous ability as we might to pull the right levers, to be seen as 'in,' etc.

--None of us is likely to put on the salesman charm/smarm of a Trump to get across our message to broader audiences.

Sorry, just a thought...kinda tangential to the main theme of the thread, but there you have it.

[Hawkcreek]

I spent years working and living in Alaska. I think it does have some of the most fantastic scenery available anywhere in the world.
But------it really is freaking cold. Even the native Alaskans usually spend most of their PFD's to go out of state to somewhere warm in the middle of the winter.
Beautiful place, but you have to be a hard-ass to live there full time.
Of course, I think that is why so many Alaskans may like it. The only candy-asses you have to put up with are the tourists, and they all leave when the snow flies.
Plant is right to be proud of the place. But it is not for everyone.

It also makes you a bit strange and unsociable.

Some truth to this, but I think in my case, I was a bit strange and unsociable before I ever got to Alaska. Maybe Alaska just appeals to that type of person.

[Hawkcreek]

We are, I do believe the people in society who have some of the most important messages to relay to the rest of society (even if those views differ somewhat in detail or even in deeper ways), but we have grown to be outside that society, so often don't have as dexterous ability as we might to pull the right levers, to be seen as 'in,' etc.

In my experience the rest of society only wants to hear a nice, comfortable message. They don't really care to be told anything different than group-think. Or maybe I just have zero ability to pull the right levers.

[dohboi]

Good point, Hc.

[Ibon]

It is those, like Ibon and Hawk and many of the rest of us, who at some point have removed ourselves from the general flow of 'civilization' who have come to see the deep flaws in the whole pattern. Whether we were 'loners' from the beginning, and that's why we isolated ourselves, or if it was the experience of going it solo that made us 'loners,' we are left with our own conundrum:

I think it is a push pull. My dad was a Mennonite farmer, who left the church but never left being in exile from the mainstream due to his religious past. He met my mother in WWII in Rome Italy. She was an italian war bride who came to America invited by me dad. She was an immigrant who never really integrated. So I had parents who lived quite isolated lives from the mainstream. That was the push. The pull was what I found once I immersed myself in the wilderness, a natural world that the civilized world could never ever compete with in terms of living life fully, alive, creatively. Nothing in the world of man could compete with what I found in nature. I was successful in business later in life because I was in it but not of it. Business was bullshit for me but I was good at it, it only ever was a means toward a goal I already had 20 years ago to one day earn enough to do what I am doing today.

This is related to scientists. I get quite a few researchers here. Just this week 8 entomologists were here collecting insects. They are extremely intelligent folks, they see the big picture, they are introverted when in normal society but among each other they are animated and goofy. But definitely loners. All the knowledge that they have regarding the plight of our biosphere doesn't get out there because they are not charismatic folks in normal society. They are nerds. They are not spokesmen or spokeswomen for our plight. They tend to withdraw into their world of bugs. I find I identify with them far more than a political activist or environmental activist who is outspoken but firmly married to urban or suburban life. I don't fully trust folks who advocate for nature but hardly spend any time in it. I trust far more the nerdy introverted entomologist.

[dohboi]

"...definitely loners. All the knowledge that they have regarding the plight of our biosphere doesn't get out there because they are not charismatic folks in normal society. They are nerds. They are not spokesmen or spokeswomen for our plight. They tend to withdraw into their world of bugs."

Nicely put, and my point exactly.

[clif]

Remake the human species so that only three pregnancies are possible for each female.

[Ibon]

Remake the human species so that only three pregnancies are possible for each female.

How about only 3 ejaculations for each male?

[Tanada]

Remake the human species so that only three pregnancies are possible for each female.

To make up for the natural infant mortality rate each of those three pregnancies would need to be twins or triplets. People forget that up until the 1940's 25 percent of live births ended with a dead infant or toddler before the age of 5. In addition there were about a 5 percent chance of a still born infant. You not only had the injuries common to childhood, but the diseases we have nearly or totally eliminated with immunization and anti bacterial, anti viral and anti parasitic drugs have saved many more lives than most can imagine. Don't take my word for it, go to any cemetery that has been operating for longer than 100 years and look at the ages of the dead.

All of that is presupposing good sanitation, with poor sanitation and/or polluted water sources that death toll rises from 30 percent to 60 percent between pregnancy and adulthood.

[radon1]

WWII

[dohboi]

? Do you think the wrong side won?

I'm gonna break my own limit and come up with a (partial) series of events through history (and pre-history) that I see as crucial turning points in our march toward our current woeful circumstances. (I don't make any claims that these are all in perfect chronological order). Discuss (or not) as you please:

•Upright bipedalism (set the stage for later notions of hierarchy in human society, imvho)
•Control of fire
•Tool use advances (partly enabled by the above, leading ultimately to earth-destroying 'tools' like ICE $ Abombs)
•Discovery of bone nutrients in bone marrow (facilitated by the above and facilitating brain development, and...)
•Development of human language (don't get me started)
•Development of sense of afterlife (begins ideas that we are ultimately separate from the earth)
•Archery
•Ag revolution
•Sailing
•Wheel
•Livestock (with the former, allows for mobility, and with the next, for 'storage' of nutrients/calories)
•Potery
•Cheese
•Wool
•Writing
•Urbanization
•Organized, large-scale warfare
•Specialization
•Lactose tollerance
•Religious/moral dualism
•Monotheism (especially with a sky god...not of this earth; Zoroastrianism crucial here and in the previous)
•Astrology/astronomy
•Robber economy/ideology--all wealth belongs to 'us'...especially prevalent among many speakers of early IE lgs.
• Clocks
•Discovery of the mathematical usefulness of zero (in India) and its spread to the West by Fibonacci
•Corporations (developed from model of religious communities, iirc)
•Mechanical engineering
•Use of wind and water energy
••Discovery of use of fossil fuels, and the
••Industrial revolution that ensued (I marked these as double, because I can imagine not ending where we are today even with all previous developments, but not with these)
••Development of limitless growth/planet rape economic ideologies (especially capitalism) fostered by the above
•Chemistry (especially as applied to creation of toxins and chemicals that don't easily break down in env, CFCs...)
•Physics
•ICE
•Flight
•Nukes
•GMOs....

I realize that for most people perhaps most of these are the major markers of human progress. I guess that's kind of the point. The goal of human endeavor from here on out should be to limit human abilities and our power over the planet rather than expanding them, which has been the celebrated focus of human 'progress.'

[Ibon]

•Upright bipedalism (set the stage for later notions of hierarchy in human society, imvho)

That was going to be my initial response. There is evidence that once we left the confines of the trees and became bipedal and walked on the ground our environment went from relatively simple arboreal to quite complex and this started the natural selection engine moving forward for increased brain size.

In the end I didn't choose this because I am guessing that being sentient with a large brain is going to come up again in the future. There are several candidate mammals and birds already there or close to it.

And so this left me with the thought that humans are the first clumsy attempt of a sentient species not managing very well their mortality, dominance, sustainability. Being the first clumsy attempt of a sentient species means that we do indeed have to go through many cycles of overshoot before we somehow manage with a combination of genes and culture.

So why stop this first clumsy attempt when eventually some species will have to figure out how to get it right, even if they do this by sifting through our ruins as an extinct species.

That sums up why I would change nothing......trust the process.

[dohboi]

"That was going to be my initial response" Great minds...!

"humans are the first clumsy attempt of a sentient species not managing very well their mortality, dominance, sustainability."

Nicely put. But as for the rest, we have yet to see if the earth can afford to see us go through "many cycles."

[ennui2]

'we have yet to see if the earth can afford to see us go through "many cycles."'

It's already used up a lot of it's habitability lifecycle with past mass-extinctions so no, it doesn't have time left to go through many more cycles after this. This is it, folks.

[Timo]

I spent years working and living in Alaska. I think it does have some of the most fantastic scenery available anywhere in the world.
But------it really is freaking cold. Even the native Alaskans usually spend most of their PFD's to go out of state to somewhere warm in the middle of the winter.
Beautiful place, but you have to be a hard-ass to live there full time.
Of course, I think that is why so many Alaskans may like it. The only candy-asses you have to put up with are the tourists, and they all leave when the snow flies.
Plant is right to be proud of the place. But it is not for everyone.

It also makes you a bit strange and unsociable.

Tell me about it. My brother has lived in Fairbanks for the past 35 years. I hardly recognize him anymore. He looks the same, aside from natural aging, but i hardly know who he is.

On the other hand, Alaska might have nothing to do with that at all. We all change over time.

[jedrider]

I'll go with human language as being the beginning of the end. Then we had to please women by persuasion rather than by just taking them. It set us up for lying to ourselves as well, that what we are doing to nature is alright.

[Timo]

"That was going to be my initial response" Great minds...!

"humans are the first clumsy attempt of a sentient species not managing very well their mortality, dominance, sustainability."

Nicely put. But as for the rest, we have yet to see if the earth can afford to see us go through "many cycles."

+1!

[Ibon]

'we have yet to see if the earth can afford to see us go through "many cycles."'

It's already used up a lot of it's habitability lifecycle with past mass-extinctions so no, it doesn't have time left to go through many more cycles after this. This is it, folks.

Your not serious. 99.99% of ecologists would laugh at this.