[grabby]

US restaurants produce about 300 million US gallons of WVO a year, much of which ends up in landfills.


the Total Restaurant Vegetable oil waste is 300 barrels a year which is 7 million barrels a year or 20,000 barrels a day.

This is one thousandth of our usage

It is significatn for one of a thousand vehicles can run on it.

A few cars in each city can run a car on it, and in deed they do.

[aldente]

Vegetable Oil???

This from a vegetarian BTW

[grabby]

But as you can see, It can't save us. I was reading a blog site sayig "If we can just use all our vegetable oil that is wasted our troubles would be over.

as you can see, It won't touch the problem.

However, if we use all our vegetable oil for cars and discontinue wasting vegetables and seeds cooking french fries and doughnuts, thousands of people would be saved from cancer and illness.

Fatness will disappear, and Whole shains would disappear.

Not a bad thought. If you are going to do useless activities, might as well have a good outcome.

The prior post I rote was toungue-in-cheek, In case you missed it.

We could write a book,
Dumptster diving for fuel gold.

It would sell.

or how about
"The coming gorgonzola collapse"

Or even "Peak vegetables"

or "The coming Deep fry collapse"

"French fries: Conservation and you."

Law and order will collapse... No doughnuts.

"Rings of shame"
"I'll meet you in St. Louie: But not at Dunkin's!"

"Officer Pastry"

"The coming 4 AM crisis:

"Doughnuts for you, The way we were"

Or how about

"Kentucky boiled chicken, We do it, so you don't have to."

anyway, lots of possibilities when we run out of oil so we can supply one ten thousandths of our needs.

In the "old" days, if you were FAT, yo ere RICH.
People could not afford to be fat.

It will be so again.

[FoxV]

US restaurants produce about 300 million US gallons of WVO a year, much of which ends up in landfills.

I would even say this point is not true.

I suspect very little of the vegtable oil ends up in the land fills. It is considered a hazardous waste and must be processed before the disposal.

So instead of processing the oil to be discarded, there are lots of collection companies which process the oil into products (such as biodiesel and animal feed additives).

I looked into this in my town and found that the oil is already being made into pig feed.

This raises what will become the paramount question of ethanol and biodiesel production

Food or Fuel, which one do you want the most?

[grabby]

egg zactly.
hit the nail on the head.

BIO-DIESEL SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO START.

It is very important to point out Biodoesel is not going to help us.

Except for a few farmers who maybe can't grow anything else, which is going to happen. There is MONEY in biodiesel sure, and whatever they make will be bought and used.

It is important not to encourage it, they will one day all grow for fuel and we will have a real food shortage, then what?

When someone brings it up jjust tell them how much we really NEED and which food they want to remove from their table to do it.

Enlighten someone each time hear about Biomass, it is destructive to our sustenance, and will eventually deplete our most important resource, farm land and food.

Biomass is a black hole, all possible food that can be grown is like BURNED UP and we eat what? Bubble gum?

I thought people were already starving? What, you want MORE to starve?
Crazy man.

THEN we will be in trouble.

WHEN FUEL HITS 5 BUCKS A GALLON ALL FARMERS WILL STOP PLANTING SOYBEANS AND CORN and will start planting Rapeseed.

man, then comes the famine.

Don't encourage it.
Conservation is the only way.

but unfortunetela and alas, I fear they are going to go that route anyway.

Well, amrica is going to look much different in the future, very skinny people running around, or should I say teetering?

This may be the weirdest post of the day,
but
we need to un-support all Biodiesel.

boy, that is going to look just peachy keen, won't it?
sheesh, how do we get into these messes?

I should have known it was a trap last year, before B encouraged it (Another bad sign anyway)

calling it BIO diesel, cmon

sounds GREEN and GOOD toeveryone well it isnt.
It means growing MORE than we pull out of the ground so we can burn EVEN MORE since we cant pump fast enough.
they should have called it DESTRUCTO-diesel or FAMINE INDUCING DIESEL or CANT GET ENOUGH DEISEL

but Bio diesel is a paradigm, makes you think you are doing something good when there is no hope in hell of even alleviating our consumption with the paltry amounts we can produce.
Brazil is a joke they are faltering already, the newpaper says NOW THEY ARE INDEPENDANT CAUSE OF ETHANOL which is a lie.
they will be independant cause they just struck a huge sour well.

you were set up

Biodiesel should be called
GREENHOUSE INCREASE DIESEL

Biodiesel makes the same amount of Co2 and waste gases as any other diesel
Youve benn tricked.

People who are for it ar farmers. They are going to get rich starving us out of food.

[shaunpagan]

> BIO-DIESEL SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO START.

I disagree almost completely. The more demand for biodiesel, the more competition there will be to make money off of it. Because of this, you will see more investment in Biodiesel from Algae.

You are absolutely correct that soybeans cannot be used to completely wean us off of petroleum diesel. It takes 1 acre of farmland to produce 48 gallons of biodiesel. However, if different plants are used, that increases. For example, in southern states, Palm Oil trees can be planted to give a yield of 635 gallons per acre. That's not the exciting part though, Algae could POTENTIALLY produce 14,000 gallons per acre.

More research needs to be done and it will cost money to create these farms, but there has to be a demand for Biodiesel in order for this to happen. Soy-based biodiesel will help increase demand for biodiesel. We have to start somewhere.

[grabby]

I understand people who have pushed for this (MONEY,BUSINESS) will go rabid in denouncing this fact, but farmers will switch to biodiesel (are switching today) google biodiesel farmers rapeseed news

its like a new world everyone is eager to get into paying crops.

When you produce biodiesel crops, They will produce no longer other crops (given)
and whatever they produce is insignificant
compared to our demand which is increasing.

(Alge is a dream like hydrogen) we will be short long before it helps us.

Our food even this year will become more expensive, and shortages will begin. food dowsnt grow itself

but they won't blame Biodiesel, they will blame weather, or politics.
When in actuality food growing shortages exist.

Some large Co-Ops IN OUR AREA (read industrial mega producers, ) have already decided to rapeseed and oil crops Its already happening.
There is more profit there.

So we'll see, every one supporting NAFTA was wrong. and every one supporting Biodiesel will have to see.

peak food.

[Dukat_Reloaded]

Hi shaunpagan, I played with the idea of converting to biodiesel rather extreamly and even then the maths don't add up to what we will need.

I assumed Brazil would beable to meet the worlds needs for oil by producing biodiesel. I was going to show everyone here that growing Biodiesel in Brazil would provide the world with all the oil they would ever need, I was abit off, but still it's reasonable, just not as good as I thought. Here are my calculations.

I the total area of Brazil
total: 8,511,965 sq km
land: 8,456,510 sq km
water: 55,455 sq km

1 acre of palm can produce 635 gallons.
8511965x256(to acre conversion)x635 = 1,383,705,030,400 gallons
divide by 42 (turning gallons into barrels) = 1383705030400. divide again by 365 = 90261254.

If the entire contient of brazil was able to be converted to palm oil plantations, we would beable to produce 90 million barrels of oil each day.

Assuming that half of Brazils land is farms, towns & cities the other half will be needed for biodiesel which means the total of 90million barrels of per day is halved to 45 million barrels of oil per day. Current conventional oil production is around 80 million barrels of oil per day, and by 2030 when demand is at 125 million barrels of oil per day the 45 million barrels of biodiesel will make up the gap from 80-125, but the problem here is conventional oil would have already begun declining and I doubt that biodiesel production could be increased much more than 45mbpd.

peak biodiesel

[grabby]

Oh wow! I guess I was totaly wrong!
O

Wait,
I feel something in my pocket.

AH! a calculator!
Calculators are wonderful, they lend support to reeds blowing in the wind.

As people read through these posts, arguements sway one way or another and they take one side or another.
the reason for this is they do not understand HOW MUCH DAM OIL WE USE!

see here.
That kind of calculation is fancy but it can’t be done. You have to look at real life plants
Here is an existing palm oil Mill built to make a profit. Same wether as Brazil.
The company owns a total oil palm planted area of over 16,000 hectares (40,000 acres) in Malaysia and three palm oil mills. Production volume this year is expected to be similar to last year's 59,000 tons, Rashidi said. In the coming years, output is likely to increase as the company has replanted with higher-yielding materials, he said. "We are also trying to improve our OER (oil extraction rate). Currently, we are at above 20 tons per hectare, which is above the industry average
16,000 hectares = 60,000 tons x 7 barrels per ton
420 thousand Barrels per year.
So 100,000 acres and eight processing plants will produce 1 million barrels a YEAR
So 1 million acres and 80 processing plants will produce 10 million barrels a year.
So 10 million acres and 800 processing plants will produce 100 million barrels per year or 275 thousand barrels a day
So 100,million acres and 8000 processing plants will produce 3 million barrels a day
So 1 billion acres and 80,000 processing plants will produce 30 million barrels a day.

So 1 billion acres and 100,000 processing plants will take care of the USA needs daily.
Now, in the real world Can it be done?
Will it be done? In time for peak oil as our gas doubles each year?
Ok Ok lets just supply only ONE TENTH OF OUR NEEDS.

Lets just plant a million acres and build 10,000 processing plants!
This will supply only one tenth of our needs.
IT
CANNOT
BE DONE
And it WILL NOT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE IN ANY WAY.
Algae is a joke.


I am sorry
I guess I was right

Biodiesel is a non winner even to try to replace ten percent of our use is totally impossible.

[grabby]

Man, I am bummed out, every time I do another calculation I see nothing but trouble.

I am gonna have to stop this and go take a walk.

And I thought of something that did the chills up the spine again, I hate that.

If P B makes an executive order to build 10,000 processing plants and plant 100 million acres of palm trees TODAY, and if the Trees miraculously sprouted OVERNIGHT INTO FRUITING Bobyuskas and the Plants were running on solar power not taking a drop of oil, and if we have CHINESE LABOR who do not reguire wages, and we can feed then palm husks (after the oil is removed) to man all 10,000 plants and hand pick everything and we can START PRODUCING OIL NEXT SPRING ALREADY.
DID YOU KNOW that amricas INCREASE in fuel consumption BY NEXT YEAR will outstrip this new palm oil source?


Yes if we build ten thousand plants TODAY it will not produce enough to offest our INCREASE in oil use by next year.

now THAT is scary.

[shaunpagan]

"Lets just plant a million acres and build 10,000 processing plants!
This will supply only one tenth of our needs.
IT
CANNOT
BE DONE
And it WILL NOT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE IN ANY WAY.
Algae is a joke."

OK. I must have misunderstood the theory of peak oil. I was under the assumption that oil would peak and then decline. I guess I'm wrong. I guess it peaks and then not another drop is produced. Sorry I misunderstood.

I don't understand why you say Algae is a joke after referring to the numbers for Palm Oil. Of course Palm Oil can't produce ALL of our current energy needs. I just stated that is produces more than Soy. Algae produces even more yet.

The worlds current automobile fleet is currently built around cheap fuel. What will it look like in 10 years from now? Do you think Toyota is done developing high mileage cars? Do you think they will not improve on their hybrid design? They have had no need to produce anything better during the last 15 years because gas has been cheap.

I refuse to give in to the doom and gloom and go wander off into the woods and die. My car DOES run on biodiesel and it is working just fine for me. If everyone were to switch to biodiesel, I would adapt. I DO believe that peak oil is close. I do believe it's going to hurt. I do have faith that at least I will be able to adapt to it.

[coyote]

OK. I must have misunderstood the theory of peak oil. I was under the assumption that oil would peak and then decline. I guess I'm wrong. I guess it peaks and then not another drop is produced. Sorry I misunderstood.

You understood right, but maybe just not completely. A decline rate of 5% is right in the middle of the credible estimates of 3% to 8%. If oil production declines at 5%, then the amount that biodiesel will be able to replace will be passed by in only a few years, no matter what we do. I'm not making a judgement about whether or not we should produce biodiesel, or whether it is a good choice personally or regionally; but no way will it be able to keep up with oil production declines for very long.

[nocar]

Using human food as transport fuel is nothing new. In the 19th century, farming communities in the south west of Sweden with good oatgrowing conditions got an economic boost by exporting oats to the UK to power the horse-driven transport system in the densely populated UK.

I think I have asked the question before on this board, but have not received a clear answer: Is a car or a horse more efficient in turning biofuel into transport? Considering the yield from one acre, which can go the farthest?

And if we take the production of a new horse or car into account - which would be more energy efficient?

I guess we also have to take the conversion cost (in energy) of grain to fuel in the case of cars into account. In case of the horse, it can eat iy as it is, can't it?

nocar

[Tanada]

Using human food as transport fuel is nothing new. In the 19th century, farming communities in the south west of Sweden with good oatgrowing conditions got an economic boost by exporting oats to the UK to power the horse-driven transport system in the densely populated UK.

I think I have asked the question before on this board, but have not received a clear answer: Is a car or a horse more efficient in turning biofuel into transport? Considering the yield from one acre, which can go the farthest?

And if we take the production of a new horse or car into account - which would be more energy efficient?

I guess we also have to take the conversion cost (in energy) of grain to fuel in the case of cars into account. In case of the horse, it can eat iy as it is, can't it?

nocar

As a general rule only a hard working horse needs grain, a horse used for 'light' riding or not worked does just fine with forage. Grain into a herbevore is a waste of grain to save time, if you graze a horse and work the same horse it uses up half to two thirds of the day eating forage, the same horse on grain only needs about an hour or two to eat the same number of calories in grain. (or quantities of fruit like apples or pears in small quantities as they are high energy and horses love them)

I never owned a horse but I grew up around them so I might have a few details off.

[nocar]

Thank you Tanada, so the time a horse can spend eating is a factor in whether it needs grain or plain grass.
However, how far can a horse go (and hwo much can it pull?) on an acre worth of biofuel compared to a car is still open. In the case of cars, has it not been suggested to make ethanol from switchgrass? (I do not really now what switchgrass is, but it does not sound like grain. Can a horse eat it?)

When comparing the energy efficiency of horses and cars, perhaps we should also consider that the horse produces manure, so less fertilizer needs to be added to produce the fuel.

Of course a car can move faster than a horse, but if the car uses up one acres worth of biofuel in an hour and less (I have no idea whether it does that) - well, it seems that we can not support many cars.

Anybody who can calculate a comparison? However, I suspect that a human being on a bicycle is more energy efficient than a horse in going places. Why I think so? Just because some technical paper I read had found that bicycles are more energy efficient for transport than any animal. And I suppose we do not have to take into account the feeding of the human just for staying alive (that is a purpose in itself, is it not?) whereas the horse need food whether it doing useful work or not.

nocar

nocar

[grabby]

Y'all are missing the point.
you cannot make enough ethanol to make any difference.
And ethanol can only be producedwhile we have cheap energy and oil!

you have to distill it.

If you use the ethanol made to distill itself (you use up all the ethanol.

its like hydrogen, most the product is used up making itself
its a no winner
no brainer.

Farmers like it and billionaire ethanol producers like it, and consumers get shafted.

it contains 30 per cent less energy for more cost and it always will cost more than whatever the gasoline costs
ergo gas is 10 a gallon ethanol will be more. since it needs oil to be manufactured.

[Tanada]

Y'all are missing the point.
you cannot make enough ethanol to make any difference.
And ethanol can only be producedwhile we have cheap energy and oil!

you have to distill it.

If you use the ethanol made to distill itself (you use up all the ethanol.

its like hydrogen, most the product is used up making itself
its a no winner
no brainer.

Farmers like it and billionaire ethanol producers like it, and consumers get shafted.

it contains 30 per cent less energy for more cost and it always will cost more than whatever the gasoline costs
ergo gas is 10 a gallon ethanol will be more. since it needs oil to be manufactured.

Grabby, once again you are making a whole basket of assumptions on how ethanol is manufactured. Yes you can make it in a petroleum exclusive way, but that doesn't have to be the way you manufacture it. You can grow your crop organically and process it electrically, they just don't do that now because oil is still dirt cheap energy.

[highlander]

Grabby does make a lot of assumptions. While Biodiesel and ethanol won't "save" us, they will make a difference.
Consider, with your calculator if you must, the amount of land in CRP (farmers paid for not raising crops), the amount of cropland in fallow, and the ability of farmers to actually raise more than one type of crop. addin a bit of conservation and we might get down the road another ten years.
In the meantime, I'm still dumpster diving and burning biodiesel.
at 0.75/gal.

[Caoimhan]

Also don't forget that the transesterification of oils into biodiesel (methyl- or ethyl- ester), is only essential if you're trying to use existing diesel engines. With fairly minor retrofits (Elsbett style), many diesels can run on straight vegetable oil (SVO), eliminating some major costs in the fuel processing chain.