[Plantagenet]

Why are so many new TESLA's getting scrapped?

Because they are too expensive to fix

teslas-too-expensive-to-fix-

Here's yet ANOTHER news report saying new EVs are being are being taken off the road and scrapped rather then repaired.

And the reason? This report says Teslas are just too expensive to fix....the insurers are now saying it's just not worth it fixing even little things that get broken.

AND this report says that its not just the fear of damage to the battery that is causing new Teslas to get scrapped after minor accidents, its the fact that insurers won't even pay to repair some kinds of minor damage unrelated to the battery. Get in a fender bender with your EV and there's a chance its going to get scrapped.

And how new are the EVs being scrapped? Are they really new?

This report says (and I quote):

Of more than 120 crashed Model Ys that were totaled and then put up for auction in December and early January, the vast majority had fewer than 10,000 miles on the odometer, according to online data from auction houses Copart and IAA

Whoa.....thats pretty amazing. AND if in two months there were 120 Model Y teslas taken off the road and scrapped, and the vast majority of them had LESS THEN 10,000 miles on the odometer, then they were less than a year old!!!!!! They were really were still mostly new.

Let's look at the bigger picture....If 120 model Ys were scrapped in two months then over a full year you're getting up to maybe 720 mostly almost new TESLAs model Ys being scrapped because the insurers won't repair them, even if the damage was very minor. Model Ys cost from 45-75K, so let's take a rough average price of 60K...time 720 scrapped per year comes to about about 43 million flushed down the toilet per year....adding up to several thousand Models Ys being scrapped over five years and over 200 million lost over five years. And thats just one model of Tesla....presumably all the others are also being scrapped and all the other EVs from other car companies are being scrapped as well, due to fears over battery damage and the high cost of repair.

The amount of waste that is occurring is INCREDIBLE!!! We're talking billions of dollars being flushed down the toilet because these EVs can't be repaired!!!!! And it means their huge carbon footprint is never compensated for because these model Ys get scrapped so early in their life cycle. And all the materials mined weren't properly used...so more waster there.


Look! This Tesla Model Y was just in a minor accident and then it spontaneously combusted itself........which is OK because it couldn't be repaired after the minor accident anyway

The bottom line is that EVS AREN'T SUSTAINABLE. The data shows they are being scrapped at higher rates then EV cars!!!!

SHEESH!!!!

[AdamB]

The bottom line is that EVS AREN'T SUSTAINABLE.

And? Neither are geologic features, which seem quite permanent most of the time. But any geologist would know, as just one example, that the Copper River Basin in Alaska hasn't ever been "sustainable" and while a beautiful place, has a complex glacial history just within the recent Holecene. Perhaps even represented with fluvial, glaciolacustrine, and full glacial sediments, that include multiple occupations by a proglacial lake as ice repeatedly advanced into the basin from surrounding source areas and dammed drainage outlets.

So if ANY geologist, or even non-geologists, know that entire geologic basins aren't sustainable, let alone the tectonics of southern Alaska making even more things happening along the way, who in their right mind would ever think some lousy EV is sustainable? What kind of strawman are you fighting? Certainly any geologist would know better, let alone Joe Average.

SHEESH!

[Plantagenet]

Brand new Rivian pickup truck catches on fire while plugged in and charging at a public commercial charging station---the fire TOTALED the RIVIAN EV and took out part of the charging station too!!!

Rivian-electric-pickup-caught-fire-while-charging-electrify-america-station


BOOM! sizzle sizzle snap pop BOOM! sizzle sizzle

Well....I hadn't seen a news story about a RIVIAN burning up before. Of course it's a newer kind of EV....there aren't many on the road yet.

It seems like it doesn't matter if it's a TESLA EV, or KIA EV, or JAGUAR EV, or FORD EV, or now a Rivian EV pickup truck......they all have the same problem----they all undergo spontaneous combustion.

And the weird thing about it is that there isn't anything wrong with the EVs that undergo spontaneous combustion.......there isn't anything to repair or fix to prevent the fires.

It's like having your car spontaensouly explode into flames is just something you have to put up with if you're an EV owner. Its part of the deal.

And so the EV fires just keep happening.

And no one proposes a fix to stop them.

Maybe that means EV fires can't be stopped???

And look looky---here's another brand new EV going off to the scrap heap.

People used to claim that EVs were sustainable, and the engines would last forever because they have so few moving parts.

Instead, EVs are actually going to the scrap heap at a FASTER rate than ICE cars.

Cheers!

[AdamB]

People used to claim that EVs were sustainable, and the engines would last forever because they have so few moving parts.

So because some people say silly things, they must be true? Certainly my EVs have been fine automobiles, but no one would think they are any more sustainable than the glaciers feeding Glacier Bay.

Instead, EVs are actually going to the scrap heap at a FASTER rate than ICE cars.
Cheers!

Why would that matter if, as just one example, someone lived where there are only 190 miles of roads? Aren't folks pretending to be concerned about EVs going to scrap heap a bit overwrought when they live somewhere where cages are mostly an afterthought to move around a very limited number of roads in the first place? It is like complaining that your kayaks are going to the scrap heap when all you have to float them in is the local pissant college indoor swimming pool.

[theluckycountry]

Brand new Rivian pickup truck catches on fire while plugged in and charging at a public commercial charging station---the fire TOTALED the RIVIAN EV and took out part of the charging station too!!!

It's only a matter of time before municipalities take concerted action and start banning these recharge stations, or insisting they are sited out beyond a certain distance of the CBD.

In electric vehicles, Li-ion batteries release toxic gases during fire primarily from combustion of the electrolyte. The electrolyte contains lithium hexafluorophosphate (LiPF6) and can also include other fluorine containing compounds...

Even now very little is in the published press about the dangers of these types of fires but the coverup will not last forever and then action will be taken, just as it was with the asbestos industry and its products. I could imagine the EV being banned from parking garages nation wide. Especially if insurance companies started jacking rates on such structures

[theluckycountry]

EV's banned from parking garages worldwide

A Colorado resident says their condo association banned charging or parking electric vehicles, or EVs, in their own parking garage, according to CleanTechnica.

"While both the state and county is looking seriously at the issue and understands that guidelines are needed for properties such as Decatur there are no such guidelines available yet," reads an email from the condo association obtained by CleanTechnica. "The Board of Managers has decided for the time being to prohibit any and all EVs from using the Decatur garage, either parked or charging."

The email doesn't say where owners are allowed to park their cars, although we're guessing there's some kind of street parking nearby. It also leaves the question of where EV drivers can charge their car to make it, you know, usable.

https://futurism.com/condo-bans-evs-fire-risk

According to German publication InFranken, an underground parking garage located in Kulmbach, Germany has decided to outright ban battery-electric and hybrid vehicles. The decision was made following a five-month renovation following - you guessed it - a vehicle fire. "In the future, electric and hybrid cars will no longer be allowed to park in the underground car park," said Michael Kuhnlein from the civil engineering department.

https://carbuzz.com/news/parking-garage ... nd-hybrids

Why EVs May Literally Be The Downfall Of Old Parking Garages

With the increase in the popularity of electric cars, governments need to ensure parking garages can withstand the extra weight of these vehicles... The Daily Mail underlines that the weight of electric vehicles is nearly two times greater than that of conventional cars. This means that the older parking facilities could be at risk of damage or even collapse.

https://www.hotcars.com/evs-downfall-ol ... g-garages/

April 20, 2023 The collapse of a parking garage in New York City on Tuesday that killed at least one person has put a new spotlight on aging structures and heavy electric vehicles.

The incident occurred after a recent study raised concerns that many older parking garages may need to be re-evaluated due to the increased weight of electric vehicles. If all the vehicles parked in a garage were electric, there is a decent chance the garage may collapse given how heavy electric vehicles are.

https://www.autoracing1.com/pl/396801

So, fires and the massive weight of these vehicles are turning out to be real issues. What else is there? Perhaps a thread should be started "The Dangers of Electric Vehicles" They are certainly not the Green solution touted years ago.

[theluckycountry]

Chevrolet Bolt EV owners have have been banned from a San Francisco parking lot over concerns they might catch fire, even when not plugged in.

The ban follows the recent news that General Motors is recalling all Bolt EV and Bolt EUVs ever made, totalling more than 142,000 cars around the world, a move that will cost the automaker nearly $2 billion.

https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/san-fr ... -concerns/

[AdamB]

I could imagine the EV being banned from parking garages nation wide.

Depends on the nations I suppose. Third World, non-exceptional, can't even build a car on their own, those scared of everything or run by Kings or Communists, etc etc. Some are busy building out the infrastructure, selling the things by the bazillions, not worrying about fires because they catch fire only half as often as ICE antiques, etc etc.

[AdamB]

The ban follows the recent news that General Motors is recalling all Bolt EV and Bolt EUVs ever made, totalling more than 142,000 cars around the world, a move that will cost the automaker nearly $2 billion.
https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/san-fr ... -concerns/

Recent news? Your article is 2 years old, my boss bought one of these cars, has had the battery replacement already...as have most of them.

Do try and keep up, maybe countries owned by others only get an old version of the internet, everything delayed 2 years or more? Try one of those Starlink things ( I know, more exceptional country stuff for countries that can't launch a single rocket, let alone thousands of satellites), and get the real deal.

[Plantagenet]

What I worry about is an EV fire on a ferry boat.

Because I live in Alaska, I sometimes take long distance ferry boats where a couple hundred cars wind up parked down in the hold on the car deck while all the passengers are on the upper decks. Some of these ferry trips can take 3-4 days.

You've got to wonder what would happen if an EV spontaneously combusted down on the car deck while we were at sea.

EV fires are notoriously hard to put out just with water, so most likely the EV fire would burn for hours, and chances are it would catch the other cars on fire, which in turn would catch the ferry on fire.

There has already been a case where a ship sank because an EV board caught on fire, but that was on a freighter.

You'd hate to see an EV spontaneously combust and then burn for hours inside a ferry boat where hundreds of passengers would be at risk......a whole bunch of people could get killed.


Some idiot brought a $%$#%$ EV on the ferry boat and then it spontaneously combusted down on the car deck of the ferry boat, thats what happened!!!!

Cheers!

[AdamB]

What I worry about is an EV fire on a ferry boat.

Because I live in Alaska, I sometimes take long distance ferry boats where a couple hundred cars wind up parked down in the hold on the car deck while all the passengers are on the upper decks. Some of these ferry trips can take 3-4 days.

Not "just because you live in Alaska". When you were in Fairbanks, I'm guessing ferries were hardly part of your daily travel to and from hooking up with Guy when he was in town. Now, for folks living in the countries largest by area and 46th in population state capital, with barely enough roads to stage an amateur marathon race, sure, ferries would be important. Probably need one just to get close to the icefields around Glacier Bay I imagine. And because so few people own EVs in Juneau, and in Alaska at large, them bursting into flames is of little concern because the liklihood of the normal ICE machines is 2X more likely.

If you want to pretend to be worried about fires on ferries, do it in a scientifically accurate way. Be horrifed at all those gasoline bombs just waiting for an errant cigarette to find an open fuel door.

[theluckycountry]

What I worry about is an EV fire on a ferry boat.

Because I live in Alaska, I sometimes take long distance ferry boats where a couple hundred cars wind up parked down in the hold on the car deck while all the passengers are on the upper decks. Some of these ferry trips can take 3-4 days. !

I wouldn't worry about it up there, EV's are next to useless for cold climates, the heater alone would suck the battery dry in a few hours. You'd have to be a complete fool to have one up in the cold regions. But then again, isn't that the definition of an EV owner?

[theluckycountry]

The Inherent Problems With EVs That No One Wants To Talk About
Without long term solutions, EVs could end up being a fad

I couldn't have put it better myself. Yes the public is finally waking up to the EV scam, what a shame hundreds of billions had to be wasted along the way though.

I should feel a little guilty myself because Australia, along with all it's other treasures, is also one of the world's leading Lithium producers and our Nation and indirectly our lifestyles have been improved by shipping it across the globe. Fortune passes everywhere in times like these though.

The post is paywalled, the tool below the link works.

https://grantpiperwriting.medium.com/th ... 611407edfd

https://www.removepaywall.com/article/current

[AdamB]

What I worry about is an EV fire on a ferry boat.

Because I live in Alaska, I sometimes take long distance ferry boats where a couple hundred cars wind up parked down in the hold on the car deck while all the passengers are on the upper decks. Some of these ferry trips can take 3-4 days. !

I wouldn't worry about it up there, EV's are next to useless for cold climates, the heater alone would suck the battery dry in a few hours.

Plant only pretends to own an EV, so no worries. Well, some worry, and Plant's hybrid has 3X the odds of bursting into flames on those ferries, so the concern is that regard is mostly faux. According to the science anyway. And from a vantage of personal experience, my EV usually doesn't go out in snow because of the traction control, but works fine down to -15C, less efficient because you are running the heater, and if the battery is cold soaked it is naturally less efficient as well.

Those of us with experience with EVs know these things. Others just say stuff.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Brand new Rivian pickup truck catches on fire while plugged in and charging at a public commercial charging station---the fire TOTALED the RIVIAN EV and took out part of the charging station too!!!

It's only a matter of time before municipalities take concerted action and start banning these recharge stations, or insisting they are sited out beyond a certain distance of the CBD.

In electric vehicles, Li-ion batteries release toxic gases during fire primarily from combustion of the electrolyte. The electrolyte contains lithium hexafluorophosphate (LiPF6) and can also include other fluorine containing compounds...

Even now very little is in the published press about the dangers of these types of fires but the coverup will not last forever and then action will be taken, just as it was with the asbestos industry and its products. I could imagine the EV being banned from parking garages nation wide. Especially if insurance companies started jacking rates on such structures

In the real world, ICE fires are MUCH more common than BEV fires, and BEV batteries are improving a LOT with innovations like the LFP battery, for example.

Not that your ilk cares about actual facts vs. myth spouting and arm waving.

https://www.torquenews.com/14335/tesla- ... n-gas-cars

https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/governme ... -than-evs/

EV fires can get very hot and nasty when they occur, and likely need better methods to put them out, like being submerged in a tank for a while to prevent re-ignition. That's an issue. But the incidence rate of a problem matters.

It's like the idea that commercial jet crashes can be VERY nasty, killing lots of people -- but air travel is the safest way to travel long distances, statistically. And over time, it keeps getting safer as a trend, as we learn from past accidents with formal and thorough crash investigations, and apply new safety rules / methodologies.

[AdamB]

I should feel a little guilty myself because Australia, along with all it's other treasures, is also one of the world's leading Lithium producers and our Nation and indirectly our lifestyles have been improved by shipping it across the globe. Fortune passes everywhere in times like these though.

You should feel a little guilty when your country ships off its treasures to the ChiComs, surprised your King even allows it to happen.And yes indeedy, fortune passes everywhere to China in this case, they are quite happy to buy low and sell high from the advantage of their mining colonies, the Chinese can take that lithium and make cars with it, launch satellites, hoebunkle countries can just sell the riches of their lands to others, because they can't do any of those things.

[mousepad]

Not that your ilk cares about actual facts vs. myth spouting and arm waving.

It's probably not that simple. The danger about EV fires is it's intensity and randomness.
Gas cars usually catch on fire while driving, or in an accident. Rarely ever they spontaneously catch on fire at 3 am in the morning in your garage.

Here's the NFPA report on vehicle fires.
https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/News ... efires.pdf

There are a few nuggets in the report, like:
* the majority of vehicle fires occurs in older cars (like 10 year and older). We don't have enough EV stock for apple2apple comparision.
* the majority of fires occur while driving and/or accident. Not with EV, they can combust anytime, anywhere without warning.

It takes some time for enough energy to accumulate to trigger
thermal runaway in a battery. This makes them different from
ICEVs, which can be quickly ignited by a spark or flame. Fire
development in a LIB battery pack might not be obvious in the early
stages.

And that's exactly what makes them so dangerous.

Years and years of road use vibration will deteriorate every battery. Small abrasions on the isolators eventually will lead to shorts. Not sure if that fundamental weakness can ever be solved.

Does your ilk care about critical analysis?

[AdamB]

Does your ilk care about critical analysis?

My ilk does it for a living. I am currently experimenting with 2. Battery degradation, thermal parameters both in charging and discharging under varying conditions and speeds, efficiencies in varying driving conditions (high speed interstates, local streets, cold, hot, with and w/o temperature controls running etc etc), trickle charging versus "give it as much as it takes" and the resulting temperatures that show up in the battery, all the things folks can play around with if they own one. The wife calls the 2nd EV "horrifying utilitarian" which says a bunch, because she REALLY wants a Tesla and I don't feel any need for one, and running around in a little leftover used pod car doing everything cars are supposed to do day in and day out for years while needing to date only 1 thing....a new set of tires....is quite...expected?....yet...surprising? Because none of the other cages are so cheap and maintenance free. I've got 2 oil changes to do in the kids car and my spare, they need gasoline, another one takes premium and it is crazy expensive to fill it up, they have all needed odds and ends maintenance over the past couple years, etc etc. But not that EV.

But bringing up "critical analysis" on a peak oil website that went for "non critical analysis" hook, line and sinker for better part of a decade is a bit of like a elephant showing up at a graduation ceremony for trained mice, the two just don't mix well.

[kublikhan]

It's probably not that simple. The danger about EV fires is it's intensity and randomness.
Gas cars usually catch on fire while driving, or in an accident. Rarely ever they spontaneously catch on fire at 3 am in the morning in your garage.

Here's the NFPA report on vehicle fires.
https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/News ... efires.pdf

There are a few nuggets in the report, like:
* the majority of vehicle fires occurs in older cars (like 10 year and older). We don't have enough EV stock for apple2apple comparision.
* the majority of fires occur while driving and/or accident. Not with EV, they can combust anytime, anywhere without warning.

It takes some time for enough energy to accumulate to trigger
thermal runaway in a battery. This makes them different from
ICEVs, which can be quickly ignited by a spark or flame. Fire
development in a LIB battery pack might not be obvious in the early
stages.

And that's exactly what makes them so dangerous.

Years and years of road use vibration will deteriorate every battery. Small abrasions on the isolators eventually will lead to shorts. Not sure if that fundamental weakness can ever be solved.

Does your ilk care about critical analysis?

Your source says the leading causes of vehicle fires were mechanic and electrical failures or malfunctions. Accidents represented only 4% of the causes of vehicle fires.

The leading causes of vehicle fires were mechanical failures or malfunctions and electrical failures or malfunctions.

Figure 9 shows that mechanical failures or malfunctions were the leading factors in all types of vehicle fires, followed by electrical failures or malfunctions.

Vehicle Fires

Also, ICE vehicles catch fire at a much higher rate than EVs. The rate at which ICE vehicles catch fire in parking areas alone is higher than all fires of EVs combined:

Code: Select all

Car fires by vehicle type
Type     Fires per 100,000 sales
Hybrid    3,475
ICE       1,530
EV           25

Study: Hybrids, ICE Cars Far More Likely Than EVs To Catch Fire

Table 15. Car Fires by Property Use Where Fire Occurred
Vehicle parking area (17%)

Vehicle Fires

1,530 ICE fires per 100,000 sales * 17% of those in a parking area = 260 ICE fires per 100,000 sales occur in a parking area vs 25 EV fires per 100,000 sales from ALL causes.

Examples of ICE recalls because of fire issue while parked from this year alone:
Hyundai and Kia recall 571,000 vehicles due to fire risk, urge owners to park outside

Owners of 143,000 Lincoln SUVs warned to park outside due to fire risk

GM tells newer Silverado owners to park outside due to fire risk, possible 40K trucks recalled

Certain Jeep Cherokees Recalled Due To Chance of Fire, Owners Told To Park Vehicles Outside

[mousepad]

Your source says the leading causes of vehicle fires were mechanic and electrical failures or malfunctions.

Exactly!!!

If a gas auto catches on fire it's while you drive it. A tesla catches on fire anytime and anywhere, even when sitting still for 2 weeks in your garage while you're on vacation.

Not sure about you, but I'd rather have 2 gas car fires while I drive, than one at 3am spontaneously in my garage while I sleep.