[cube]

There are some people out there who truly believe a windmill can generate electricity at a cost of 4 cents/kWh (same as a coal plant without factoring "externalities")
....
windmills cost (ready for this?) about 15 cents/kWh (4X that of coal)

In Germany you get ~8,x (Euro)-ct/kWh for wind energy (on shore) and this -is- profitable, otherwise Germany wouldn't be the largest producer of wind energy...

If you rate the external cost for CO2 at 85US$ (60€) and if 1kWh produces ~ 1kg of CO2 from coal fired plants you have to add 6ct/kWh to that.

So:

wind = 8,x ct/kWh
coal = 4 ct/kWh
coal + external costs = 10 ct/kWh

Sexed up statistics.

[cube]

The belief that energy = economic growth is a common one on these forums. Maybe you have seen a chart showing the correlation of energy use and GDP or something. However, if it were true, countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran would be the economic capitals of the world but instead the best capitalists in the world are energy staved countries like Germany and Japan.

you are miss-stating someone else's words. but lets stay on topic please

Who says they can't be scaled up? What are the limiting factors? Other than short-term limitations like current silicon production or factory capacity, both of which can be scaled up in a few years if the demand was there.

restating what was posted already on this thread:
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php? ... icle/4173/

[jbeckton]

...snip...

(Try getting everyone to do laundry at 3:00am).

...snip...

I though that is exactly what the major electric utilities ARE trying to do.

1. My washer has a "delayed start" feature - explain that if not for uses like the one above

2. Utilities are trying to get control of my major appliances - remotely - explain that if not for uses like the one above

I believe the utilities are already far down the road towards a "monumental Demand Side Management plan" - and accelerating. If they can turn off my washer to protect their precious coal and nuke plants thet can turn it back on when the wind picks up. Or is that something different from "demand manegement?"

Trying is the key word.

They are trying, but nothing "monumental" has been achieved on any large scale.

ERCOT is considering installing "smart" meters that will charge customers the current price. This should offset some usage but how much will it cost, will people fight it, and how soon could it be implemented?

[yesplease]

So why is it that the utility company keeps on trying to get their customers to conserve? something isn't adding up. There can be only one conclusion. Electricity production is probably subsidized through some weird government program.

It's probably some combination of subsidies and fear of increased regulation/taxation if they don't agree to help demand side management. Limited peak capacity may encourage this as well, since no electricity provider I know of wants to shell out more $$$ for greater transmission capacity.

[jbeckton]

So why is it that the utility company keeps on trying to get their customers to conserve? something isn't adding up. There can be only one conclusion. Electricity production is probably subsidized through some weird government program.

It's probably some combination of subsidies and fear of increased regulation/taxation if they don't agree to help demand side management. Limited peak capacity may encourage this as well, since no electricity provider I know of wants to shell out more $$$ for greater transmission capacity.

Think about all of the Phillip Morris non-smoking jargon.

Do you really think they want you to stop smoking?

Nope, and they don't want you to conserve power either.

[KevO]

OMG!

Compassion for the poor? Has there been a conciousness shift?
Has Jesus just surfed the solar wind and arrived in Brussels?

Europe's environment chief has admitted that the EU did not foresee the problems raised by its policy to get 10% of Europe's road fuels from plants.

Recent reports have warned of rising food prices and rainforest destruction from increased biofuel production.

The EU has promised new guidelines to ensure that its target is not damaging.

EU Environment Commissioner Stavros Dimas said it would be better to miss the target than achieve it by harming the poor or damaging the environment.

Clampdown promised

A couple of years ago biofuels looked like the perfect get-out-of-jail free card for car manufacturers under pressure to cut carbon emissions.

Instead of just revolutionising car design they could reduce transport pollution overall if drivers used more fuel from plants which would have soaked up CO2 while they were growing.

Corn being harvested in Germany - file photo
Fuel made from plants like corn are driving up food prices

The EU leapt at the idea - and set their biofuels targets.

Since then reports have warned that some biofuels barely cut emissions at all - and others can lead to rainforest destruction, drive up food prices, or prompt rich firms to drive poor people off their land to convert it to fuel crops.

"We have seen that the environmental problems caused by biofuels and also the social problems are bigger than we thought they were. So we have to move very carefully," Mr Dimas told the BBC.

Biofuels won't save us

[EnergyUnlimited]

Personally, I do not believe that they are giving a slightest fuck about a poor.
They are only realizing that biofuels are going to accelerate growth of prices of food, force households to spend large proportion of income on food and destroy demand on consumer items and various value added but not really needed services.

However prices of food are still going to grow, biofuels or no biofuels.
So regardless what Brussels is doing, future will be the same, take or give few years at best.

[KevO]

Personally, I do not believe that they are giving a slightest fuck about a poor.
They are only realizing that biofuels are going to accelerate growth of prices of food, force households to spend large proportion of income on food and destroy demand on consumer items and various value added but not really needed services.
t

Do I detect a hint of cynicism?

[EnergyUnlimited]

Personally, I do not believe that they are giving a slightest fuck about a poor.
They are only realizing that biofuels are going to accelerate growth of prices of food, force households to spend large proportion of income on food and destroy demand on consumer items and various value added but not really needed services.
t

Do I detect a hint of cynicism?

Yes.
It is expressed in last part of my phrase written in italic.

[Kingcoal]

Well it's just that pesky EROEI again. I have an idea, why not a new government initiative; "the war against EROEI." I mean we have the war on terror, the war on drugs, the war on obesity, why not a war to eradicate EROEI from our existence. If we get rid of EROEI, then everything is free. I want to be the first to declare that the concept of EROEI is just damn unfair, dangerous to society at large and should be done away with. Anyone want to join me in my campaign?

[Graeme]

EU targets could force Britain to build thousands of wind turbines

The British coastline is set for a dramatic increase in wind farms and tidal energy plants as the Government strives to meet a European target for renewable energy.

The pressure to speed up plans for thousands of wind turbines and the controversial Severn barrage is likely to be intense. The EU is expected to order Britain this week to raise its game from 2 per cent of renewable energy to 15 per cent by 2020. The EU package, to be published on Wednesday, will also confirm a binding target for 10 per cent of all fuel to come from biofuel, despite the warning today from MPs about its drawbacks.

timesonline

[Twilight]

Fantastic news. Maybe they can build some jack up barges too.

[Graeme]

More on this story here

[mekrob]

It's good news if they decide to meet this goal and are able to accomplish it, but I can't help but wonder about UK's independence in the future when they are demanded by an organization to which they are a member, not by their own compromise.

[Graeme]

EU reveals energy plan of action

European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso has announced "historic" plans to make Europe "the first economy for the low-carbon age".

He said Europeans wanted "a vision and a plan of action" against climate change and the measures would cost 3 euros (£2.10) a week for every citizen.

The aim would be a 20% cut in the EU's greenhouse gas emissions by 2020, which could rise to 30% with a global deal.

He told the European Parliament there was a cost, "but it was manageable".

BBC

[dukey]

ALL vehicles will run on biofuel from tomorrow (Tuesday, April 15), but nine out of 10 Britons don’t know it, revealed a recent YouGov poll.

New government regulation to help tackle climate change obligates fuel companies to add at least 2.5 per cent renewable fuel to conventional fossil fuels, rising to 5 per cent in 2010.

Source: farmers guardian

I wonder who will win the race to the bottom. Who can turn all our food into fuel first is the winner !

[Tanada]

My dear you have it all wrong, the country that converts all of someone elses food into fuel is the winner as all their competitors starve and get out of the way of their cornucopian dreams.

[Graeme]

Blow to introduction of greener fuel as oil firms face production delay

Government plans for the introduction today of cleaner fuel on all the country's forecourts have been thrown into turmoil, with the oil companies ready to offer biodiesel but warning they will not have bioethanol available for greener petrol until the beginning of next year at the earliest.

Already hit by mounting concerns about the impact of biofuels on food prices, ministers have had to accept that oil companies are not ready to meet the target of 2.5% of all forecourt petrol being derived from crop-based sources as required under their Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation (RTFO).

The UK Petroleum Industries Association says its members will still be able to meet their responsibilities under the new legislation because they would double the amount of biodiesel used - 5% a year - to ensure that the 2.5% of all fuel sales come from crops.

guardian

EU defends biofuel goals amid food crises

The EU Commission on Monday rejected claims that producing biofuels is a "crime against humanity" that threatens food supplies, and vowed to stick to its goals as part of a climate change package.

However, according to French Ecology Minister Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet, the methods for utilising the second generation sources are far from complete.

"That will take 10 to 20 years," she told AFP.

The 27 EU nations are due on May 7 to approve strict criteria for the production of biofuels, according to the European Commission.

Speaking in Luxembourg on Monday French Agriculture Minister Michel Barnier, meeting with his EU counterparts, said that food production must be the priority.

yahoo

[Gerben]

My attention was drawn to an EU proposal concerning biofuels.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/oeil/file.jsp?id=5589632

There are 2 major items in there:
1. any biofuel that does not reduce CO2 emissions by more than 35% does not count in obtaining the biofuels objective
2. biofuels from waste are counted double

Overall I think this is a good thing (altough perhaps a gliding scale would be better). There are some isues with the double counting though. If I understand it correctly: biofuels from waste are not counted double for reaching the national objectives, but only on the level of the biofuels producer.

The policy will exclude some types of bio-ethanol and palm oil.

[Graeme]

Biomass-to-Liquid biofuel plant opens in Germany

On April 17, 2008, the world’s reportedly first commercial biomass-to-liquid (BtL) plant opened in Freiberg, Saxony in Eastern Germany. The owner company Choren Industries GmbH projects that it will take 8 to 12 months for the plant to reach its full annual capacity of 18 million liters. The plant will run on forest residue wood and waste timber. At full capacity it will use 65,000 MT of wood dry matter as feedstock. Investment costs amounted to 100 million Euro, including a 35 million Euro subsidy from the state of Saxony.

While BtL can be produced from cellulosic material, it is distinctly different from cellulosic ethanol, another second generation biofuel.

The Choren project is the most commercially advanced of several research and development activities in Germany for BtL production. Choren produces BtL with the Carbo-V ® process and calls its fuel “SunDiesel®”. Choren cooperates with the car manufacturers Daimler and Volkswagen which have tested the fuel in their cars.

IHB