Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Secular vs. Devout World View

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 16:36:20

I think I may understand why the political elements that support Islam in my country are so adamant in their beliefs.

The fundamental issue here is about the world view of the people involved. Secular people range from those who place faith issues low on their personal list of priorities to those who are outright hostile to any religious belief of any kind. They tend to view the world through the lens that God or Faith is unimportant, at least for day to day living, so those things can be ignored in favor of day to day issues of life.

Devout believers on the other hand, no matter what faith they follow try to focus not on the day to day existence but rather on the eternal. The more devout a believer is the more focused they are on the eternal and the less on day to day life, to the point where the most devout often eschew material comforts so that they can focus more on the faith that they follow.

Throughout history most people fall somewhere in the middle of the scale between totally Devout and completely Secular. Monks in monasteries and Nuns in convents are close to the devout end, while hedonists running brothels are about as far on the other end as you can get. Most people have a foot in each camp, for example a lot of people who grow up in the USA in a family that goes to church regularly become less and less involved after they enter adulthood. Some become Atheist, many become Agnostic and a few seek out other belief systems that they feel are more in line with the truth as they see it.

I am of the opinion that most news reporters and editors are thoroughly secular in their individual world view. Some of them went to church as kids because their parents made them, but a vanishingly small number of them attend church/synagogue/mosque/temple as free will adults going to reinforce their own faith.

I know that when my parents packed me off to Sunday school as a kid I resented the daylights out of it. I imagine many others who were forced to attend services instead of getting to goof off on Sunday/Saturday/Friday probably also resented it and because the USA is a predominantly Christian country most of them resented Church instead of one of the many other faiths that exist.

Projecting this resentment over some of the reporter and editor professionals goes a fair way to explain why stories about Christianity are frequently negative, while stories about faiths they don’t have personal experience with tend to be more neutral or even positive in slant. That doesn’t mean all reporters and editors hate Christianity, but if 80 percent are neutral and 5 percent are positive while the remaining 15 percent are negative then the negative stories are going to be the ones that stick out.

Mother Theresa usually got positive press coverage because she was so devoutly dedicated to charity it was hard to find fault with her. Unfortunately the Catholic faith as a whole has a legacy of accusations about pedophilia that it has done a very poor job of dealing with, so despite all the good Mother Theresa press the pedophile accusations greatly overwhelm that with negative press, and deservedly so.

However despite what some seem to think Catholicism is not the largest denomination in the USA. In fact based on PEW research surveys while over 70 percent of Americans call themselves Christians only 20 percent are members of the Catholic faith while the 46 percent are what are traditionally called Protestants.

According to the 2011 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches, from which members in the United States are combined with Canadian members, and of the National Council of Churches, the five largest denominations are:
The Catholic Church, 68,503,456 members
The Southern Baptist Convention, 16,160,088 members
The United Methodist Church, 7,774,931 members
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6,321,416 members
The Church of God in Christ, 5,499,875 members


For the Secular or Atheists looking in from the outside a couple of different opinions about those who are Devout are often expressed. On one hand I have heard several prominent members around here refer to all believers as ignorant, stupid or otherwise mentally disabled in some form or fashion. On the other hand I have heard it expressed that people of faith must just be in their faith for social reasons, they have friends there or they have a good ole boy network relationship with other members of like faith, as if the faith is nothing but a social club style organization.

The sad fact is the more devout a person is the less likely they are to be understood by a secular person, and vice versa. Secular people have no use for the eternal because they do not believe in it, or they believe they will be judged as okay because they are “a good person”. They simply do not give much if any thought to eternity. Devout believers in the Jewish/Christian/Islamic type of faiths on the other hand devote a lot of time thinking about eternity and the consequences to themselves in the afterlife. This radically different world view biases the Devout to see the Secular as all a bunch of Hedonists while going the other direction the Secular see the Devout as crazy people who don’t enjoy anything about life here on Earth. Neither view is fully correct, but most people would rather go through life with blinders on than do the hard work it takes to see people as complete individuals, not caricatures of themselves.

A devout Jew or Christian actually has more in common with a devout Muslim than they do with an Atheist who despises all faiths equally.

Islam compared to the other Abrahamic faiths is a relatively small portion of the American population. Pew research estimated that in 2010 there were 2,595,000 Muslims of all denominations and racial backgrounds in the USA or a little under 1 percent of the population. This makes Islam a very small minority compared to Christianity with its 213,000,000 claimants, or even the Jewish population with 6,800,000 members.

Being such a small population of the total most Americans do not personally know anyone who is a devout Muslim unless they live in a community where the two groups mingle frequently. When you do not know people of a group different than your own you tend to project either your hopes or your fears upon that group subconsciously. IOW you see them as angels or devils, not the combination of traits that all humans are actually made up of.

If you are a secular reporter who did not know any Muslims growing up and what you know about them is a mish mash of half forgotten European history lessons and modern press releases from groups like CAIR how are you likely to view them? Well you know they are a small minority, so their rights are in danger of being suppressed. With a few seconds googling you will know they are somewhere around 2.6 Million people in the USA but the number of attacks perpetrated by Muslims is very small. Yes radicalized Muslims attacked our country directly several times since 2001, however the vast majority of American Muslims have not done anything wrong. Even if a thousand of them did that would still be far less than 1 percent of the Muslim population.

While all of the above is true IMO and it goes a long way towards explaining why there is so much resistance to using the terminology of ‘radical islam’ it doesn’t explain everything.

Thoughts?
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17059
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby Pops » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 17:15:07

Personally I believe in the separation of church and state.
What I believe beyond that is nobodies business but my own.
Ditto for your beliefs.
Or "theirs"

Everything else is just splainin...
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 18:06:27

Pops wrote:Personally I believe in the separation of church and state.
What I believe beyond that is nobodies business but my own.
Ditto for your beliefs.
Or "theirs"

Everything else is just splainin...



Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end.

Leonard Nimoy
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17059
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 18:11:49

GASMON wrote:Well, quite simply It's either Them or Us

Gas


But who gets cast as "Them" and who gets cast as "US"?
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17059
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 18:25:13

I believe this issue is a profoundly personal matter that all people ponder from time to time. Secular people while maybe not concerned with the spiritual have I am sure pondered this question. I would separate being religious from being spiritual. To me religious people are probably more likely to be conformist and group oriented people while secular tend to be more individualistic. I do not think anyone can judge anyone else on this issue. Finally, I suspect radical Islam has much more to do with secular matters and grievances then some devout justification
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby hvacman » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 18:39:15

In my experience, the more miserable and hopeless your day-to-day life is, the stronger your faith that you will find relief in the hereafter.

And the corollary, in my experience, the more comfortable you are and yet still profusely profess your belief, the more likely you are using that profession to control others.
hvacman
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun 01 Dec 2013, 13:19:53

Re: Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby Pops » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 19:57:58

Tanada wrote:
Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end.
Leonard Nimoy


Correct, faith is the end.

Faith is defined as "confidence, complete trust." The act of faith is incompatible with doubt, or even "proof" as one either believes or does not. Faith itself is all the justification and proof required, not least because religion deals with things not of the natural world that can be neither proved or disproved in any event. Beliefs come into existence when someone makes them up and... believes in them. *Poof*

But, the believer, to think himself faithful, must believe his religion holds the one truth or he is by definition "of little faith." And, since there is no logic involved or even possible...

Need I say it but that excludes tolerance of any other view, if one is truly faithful. The believer, to be a true believer, must deny any other view—or deny his own.

The problem back here in the real world of course is everyone who does not believe as the believer does, are by definition: wrong. And not just a little wrong but wrong in the eyes of God (who the believer has confidence he knows all about - because he is a believer) Again that is the only possible conclusion of the truly faithful, and of course leads to well known problems.

I dare say it leads the believer to feel that since he has faith and close knowledge of the One True God, he also is likely to have a better handle on other more worldly things as well.

I could go around and around that merry go round but suffice to say; LOL

To review:
Religious people believe in supernatural things
Believe those things superceed real world things
MUST believe their beliefs supersede any other's beliefs
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby Pops » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 20:01:56

The flip side is atheists are doubtful, skeptical, more prone to think in shades of gray. Which isn't to say they are necessarily less rigid or more humble, they are still humans after all.

Only that they don't have god on their side.
And know it.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 20:57:43

While I believe my faith is the correct one I accept that not everyone, or even the majority, will accept my faith. The thing is my scriptures teach me to present my testimony and if those I share them with chose not to accept them to move along and not try and force the issue. The concept is best expressed as some sow, some tend and some reap.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
Subjectivist
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 4701
Joined: Sat 28 Aug 2010, 07:38:26
Location: Northwest Ohio

Re: Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 21:07:06

Yes good observation, for an atheist can be quite narcissistic and arrogant as they are solely accountable to and reliant upon themselves. Funny it makes me think of a remark by the famous scientist Stephen Hawking in which he said something to the effect that he and other scientists had pretty much scientifically "proven" that God does not need to exist and in fact does not. On the other hand, a religious person need not be intransigent and close minded. Said person may simply have faith in the simple idea that their is a Supreme being and it is the reason that anything exists. That one article of faith has nothing to do with any or all other ways of thinking or believing about anything else.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 21:22:06

Pops, whilst mostly correct, I will mention that one major religion breaks your rule, Hindus follow the Vedas. In the Vedic tradition it is unacceptable to believe your religion or spirituality or lack thereof is grounds for belief in your own superiority. Each Vedic sect, of which there are thousands, have shared core beliefs then branch off into their own founding Guru's interpretations of the vastness of Vedic literature. The belief that all religions lead to the same ultimate conclusion is one of the most commonly held. This is why people of all faiths find India to be profoundly religious & spiritual as a place on earth.

Of course India is susceptible to human foible as anywhere else. But if you want discourse on the OP, it is one of the biggest discussions in India, because Hindus are duty bound to uphold the rights & dignity of the secular, to see them as equal & equally spiritual despite the natural mutual disdain.

This is a case of ancient wisdom countering human inclination towards deadly conflict. Seculars are as inclined to believe in their superiority to the extent of forming genocidal intent to the same extent religious mutters are. Despite atheist claims to some kind of ownership of peace, one doesn't need to read a mountain of history to find seculars genociding religious.

The fact India went through a hideous war at partition & there are still tens of millions of Muslims living mostly in peace, while there are extremely few Hindus in any Muslim country (Balinese fought many times to stay Hindu) shows the maturity & tolerance possible when the shared belief is powerful enough to enable people to see past the instinct to blood feud.

BTW of all outside religions, Hindus most respect Christianity, on the basis of both the Golden Rule & on the personification of God through JC. Hindus believe JC was an incarnation of Vishnu, the Creator, who they called Sananda & believe travelled extensively in India & even Tibet for about 7 years. Many believe his final resting place is in India & there are several places claimed to be Sananda's grave.

Personally I find comparative religion & religious practice one of the most interesting aspects of human life. I am pretty much on the same path as Dr Tim Leary was when he penned 'The Politics of Ecstasy'. Which concludes- "invent your own religion & make sure it grows every day, or become a robot."
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9285
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby Pops » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 21:32:26

The problem sub is not forcing your beliefs on others, the problem is they are beliefs in invisible things, unprovable things; events, beings, people outside of the realm of nature, if they lead you to do wacky things there is no reality check.

You can test the things I believe, you can likely prove many of them wrong and maybe some right but because the things I believe are right there, in real life, they can be tested. It is hard for me to get too far off the track because whatever I assert is asailable.

On the other hand, I can't disprove or even test your belief or any course you decide on if you truly believe god wants you to go down that road.

Which is where things go into the ditch.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby Pops » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 21:42:15

Thanks gypsy.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 22:23:07

Pops wrote:Thanks gypsy.

You are welcome Pops ;)

From what I have gleaned in my lifelong quest for understanding the cosmos, the wisdom of the set of books we call the Bible, & the longest continuous written culture in the world- as reflected in the Hindu Vedas-

(Disclaimer- in my first immersion in a Hindu temple, I asked the question of a very senior guru- "has anyone ever read the entire Vedic Collection?" His response was what his Maharaj told him as an inquisitive 7 year old- "if a very, very clever boy can master Sanskrit by the age of 7, & he read for 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, he would have to live at least 270 years to read the Vedas!" // nobody has read the Vedas. All wisdom is gleanings from reading & from those who have read & from observation. Nobody can claim to know the 'whole Truth".]

The most clear manifestations of Godliness--

Self awareness

Generosity

Humility

These 3 things can make you socially safe in virtually any environment, religious or otherwise, or the opposite. They don't belong to any particular religion, but they are the glue that binds them & the nectar to keep them coming back.

Does it matter where people get 'right living' from? Is not accepting the answer to this question is 'No'- is obvious to anyone of common sense- are not the Hindus right to view looking down on others as a venial sin? Is not the indication that we all should live in service to our mutual benefit as close to 'heaven on earth' as conceivably possible? Seems that way to me.

(Like I said, I haven't read the Vedas & can't say I'm anything like a perfect human being, but I feel like I know when I'm meeting one who is getting there. They don't tend to have a lot of stuff & they either travel endlessly or stay very still. Still always feel like a beginner ;) )
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9285
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby Pops » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 22:40:29

onlooker wrote:an atheist can be quite narcissistic and arrogant as they are solely accountable to and reliant upon themselves

Which demonstrates my point perfectly.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby Pops » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 22:49:40

SeaGypsy wrote:Does it matter where people get 'right living' from?

Which of course is not the question. It is where they get the justification for going off the rails.

But here is a bit about "morality" and biology.

Though human morality may end in notions of rights and justice and fine ethical distinctions, it begins, Dr. de Waal says, in concern for others and the understanding of social rules as to how they should be treated. At this lower level, primatologists have shown, there is what they consider to be a sizable overlap between the behavior of people and other social primates.

Social living requires empathy, which is especially evident in chimpanzees, as well as ways of bringing internal hostilities to an end. Every species of ape and monkey has its own protocol for reconciliation after fights, Dr. de Waal has found. If two males fail to make up, female chimpanzees will often bring the rivals together, as if sensing that discord makes their community worse off and more vulnerable to attack by neighbors. Or they will head off a fight by taking stones out of the males’ hands.

Dr. de Waal believes that these actions are undertaken for the greater good of the community, as distinct from person-to-person relationships, and are a significant precursor of morality in human societies.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/scien ... gewanted=1
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 23:05:40

Yep, Mahatma Ghandi said that the power of passive resistance relies on the conscience of your opponent, which is sometimes absent.
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9285
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 08 Dec 2015, 00:04:57

SeaGypsy wrote:Yep, Mahatma Ghandi said that the power of passive resistance relies on the conscience of your opponent, which is sometimes absent.


Very true, the British whatever their other faults may be could not stomach the level of violence necessary to break the passive resistance of Ghandi's followers. This lesson was used by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. To instruct the sit in and peace activists of the American Civil Rights movement. The images of peaceful protestors having water canons and guard dogs turned upon them drove the good people of the country to come to their defense. It even worked for Leck Walensia in the Polish Solidarity movement.

However when the dissidents followed the same tactic in Tianmen Square it only delayed the crackdown for a couple days, then the tanks and armoured personnel carriers rolled into the square and slaughtered enough people to destroy the dissident movement for that generation.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
Subjectivist
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 4701
Joined: Sat 28 Aug 2010, 07:38:26
Location: Northwest Ohio

Re: Secular vs. Devout World View

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 08 Dec 2015, 02:35:46

SeaGypsy wrote: Seculars are as inclined to believe in their superiority to the extent of forming genocidal intent to the same extent religious mutters are.



I would say that secular thought wins the genocide prize If by genocide we are referring to the whole scale obliteration of natural ecosystems in order to expand human landscapes. Secular materialism removed the divine from our relationship with nature. Science gained the power to dominate with tools and technology to express superiority in its most pure and genocidal form to date.......... from the point of view of our floral and faunal brethren.
Patiently awaiting the pathogens. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 9568
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Next

Return to North America Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests