[Ibon]

People fought wars long before there was anything close to over-population.

You have to remember Cog that the carrying capacity of past civilizations that fought wars was far lower than what we have today in the fossil fuel age. The Mayans and Romans did experience stresses on their local carrying capacity based on the population that was enabled by the technology of those times.

There is a lot of evidence that many of the past wars were indeed the result of resource constraints, which is a symptom of the population at the time, under the given resource base, having exceeded the local carrying capacity.

Not always. But often.

[vox_mundi]

People fought wars long before there was anything close to over-population.

Look beyond the headlines.

Wars are fought for resources, when the needs of the population or that of the aggressor exceeds what is available. Overpopulation can be local, regional, or global.

Now it's global. Nowhere to hide.

[AgentR11]

---If fear is on the rise and becoming a dominant force in the background shaping our culture, where will this take us moving forward?
---How will this dominant sense of anxiety shape our world moving forward and how can this be mitigated?

Fear promotes violence, violence and helplessness make more fear. I think the feedback is already engaged, and given that resource constraints are starting to beat on our civilization; I see no reason to expect that feedback to ease off. Rather, it will eventually start to expand its grip and nation vs nation warfare will resume in Ernest. It doesn't take much experience with hunger or deprivation to completely warp a national consciousness into a realpolitik expression with nukes.

I do not believe it can be mitigated, but it is self correcting via population collapse, which needs no help from sane humans to do its horrible task.

Just a thought...
It seems that a matriachal society might be way out of the self destructive characteristics of our global patriarchal leadership.

I'm sitting at my desk, pondering the females that are close to me in my life...

Your statement brings only one thought into my mind.

THUNDERDOME! 2 enter 1 leaves.

Was talking to one last night about Afghanistan, she was ranting about something,and I was describing how its kinda hard to operate there, logistics, where you have to have bases, chase idgits into caves, or whatever.

Her solution was nukes. And not one, but carpet bomb the whole place with nukes.

I don't think matriarchy in Humans will work out quite like you think it would....

Her solution for crime is pretty funny to, you convict the bad guy, and then walk him out the back of the court room and shoot 'em. walla, no criminals.
lol.

[Ibon]

Mitigation implies an enforced solution. Who enforces solutions? Government does.

You haven't even begun to see the extent to which we will all be subjected to increased institutional control. To believe that the big systemic problems we face will weaken government is pure illusion. We are moving more and more toward being regulated. FYI I probably hate it more than you do. I have had a career for 25 years in the international arena. 20 years ago I was able to move about with my business practically unregulated. When I compare this now post 911 it is extremely disturbing and sad and I am truly grateful to be semi retired and I feel sorry for those who have to negotiate today in the same field I was in previously when it was so much less regulated.

You are the one implying that I am somehow evil for conceal carrying. I didn't bring it up before you did. You think taking that right away from me would make me less of a porcupine(in your words) How about leaving me and mine the hell alone? That will make me a lot less fearful.

You are wrong actually. I am not greatly disturbed that you conceal carry. In fact, Cog, you did help me moderate my view on this. Some of your posts moved me to have a more accepting position on this. I was only referring to the motives behind it. Statistically there is no real tangible threat. It is mostly fear. You can rant and rave and argue this point until you are blue in the face but statistics don't lie.

[Tanada]

If fear is on the rise and becoming a dominant force in the background shaping our culture, where will this take us moving forward?

There are some clear consequences to being fearful. Just ask any mouse that cringes over every shadow passing overhead.

How will this dominant sense of anxiety shape our world moving forward and how can this be mitigated?

If you look at my several posts about historical cycles you already know my answer. The Joe6P of the world will surrender freedom for the illusion of security and we will descend into another long period of Monarchical/Inherited power. Just look at the USA the 'land of the free' where the two major parties want to duke it out over whether the Democrat Progressive represented by Clinton or the Republican Progressive represented by Bush will rule for the next 4-8 years. Before 1980 only Washington insiders had a clue who the Bush family were even when they had held significant posts within the power structure for decades before that. Before 1992 only people actually in Arkansas had any idea at all who the Clinton family were, but since then they have become the proxy representation of the Democrat progressives.

America is well on its way to becoming a hereditary power structure. Just north of the border Mr. Trudeau son of the former PM Trudeau has just been elevated to the same seat of power. When they are fearful people are often found clinging to the devil they know rather than the great unknown fear. It is just the nature of things.

[Cog]

The motives are what they always were regarding CC. An insurance policy that you will be glad you took out if you ever have to use it. Which is almost exactly what the right to bear arms is. An insurance policy against government overreach.

But on that issue of gun violence. If it is statistically insignificant, why do progressives spend some time on the issue trying to restrict the right? Seems it would be a waste of their time and resources when they could concentrate on more pressing matters.

[Ibon]

The Itch seems to me toward a new tribalism to replace the old social structures we disdained and dismantled.

Ironic that the Great Mobility that broke down the distance barrier and made cultural melting pots possible is now morphing into to the Great Sort that enables opinion-based geographic relocation.

We have reached Peak Globalization. We are now contracting back toward nationalism. The only constant is the great Pendulum in the Sky

[Pops]

This is mouse and porcupine strategy and your orientation is because you are reacting to the collective fear.

Ds & Rs are just different. Ask most any R about the protests in Chicago last night and they will likely show signs of fear at a mob of mad blacks and defend the cop who shot the wired up and knife wielding black kid.
Ask a (white) D and they may show fear of black mobs too but they will be more prone to ask why it took a year for the charges and video to come out.

The Rs are the party of the majority. As such they can affect an independent cowboy attitude while waxing about small government. But at the same time they vote consistently for a strong authoritarian, religiously intolerant, even militaristic government: "law and order" dontcha know.

D are the party of minorities, you name the group, they have a plank. And yeah, Ds are afraid of other minorities too, and guns, but they are also afraid of authoritarian government.
Not the "oh, yuck, not more building permits" government, the "on your knees: bang, bang (x16)" government.

[Lore]

We've experienced it before with the Adams, #2 and #6. There are also many related people throughout our government's history in more minor roles.

[AgentR11]

This is mouse and porcupine strategy and your orientation is because you are reacting to the collective fear.

Ds & Rs are just different. Ask most any R about the protests in Chicago last night and they will likely show signs of fear at a mob of mad blacks and defend the cop who shot the wired up and knife wielding black kid.

I'm an R. While I'm jittery around any group of people, the coloration of the group is irrelevant. Secondly, I am pretty annoyed at this, yet another instanced of a militarized police response with the public as the enemy, and not the employer. Timing wise, otoh, I prefer justice to be slow and methodical; I don't know if a year is too long, but it doesn't seem that outrageous to me for a homicide; especially if the suspect (a cop here) is well known and would likely be able to make bail anyway. As long as he's not able to successfully flee the country, he should be free until convicted in court. And that takes time to do in a just and honorable fashion.

OTOH, "armed with a knife" is a problem that is hard for folks to understand, because gun vs knife seems like such a mismatch. But in defense, if you're a cop holding a gun aimed at me, with a knife and we're within 6ft of each other, I can kill you before you can shoot the gun if you are waiting for me to attack or comply. Its really a hard thing to accept, or even to tolerate the aftermath of; doesn't make it less true.

I think the right answer is for the gun holder to backstep carefully, increasing the distance between the knife wielder and gun holder; you either make yourself safe by distance, or you make clear the hostile intent of the knife holder if he pursues; making the kill legit and also look legit.

To often, I think our militarized police look for a way to make the kill legit, as opposed to look for a way to de-escalate the dangerous situation. I think BLM mistaking this issue as racial by relying on stats, make the problem less likely to be solved. Which is unfortunate. But it also may be true that in a society now governed by fear, that no solution exists.

[Pops]

I saw a vid once where the guy with a knife made up a big distance— >6' and killed at least one cop and cut a few more before he finally went down. So yeah much more dangerous than it might seem.

[Ibon]

The motives are what they always were regarding CC. An insurance policy that you will be glad you took out if you ever have to use it. Which is almost exactly what the right to bear arms is. An insurance policy against government overreach.

But on that issue of gun violence. If it is statistically insignificant, why do progressives spend some time on the issue trying to restrict the right? Seems it would be a waste of their time and resources when they could concentrate on more pressing matters.

I don't want to derail the thread's topic but I will give you a final clarification on my position and then further discussions need to go to a relevant thread. To be fair you are allowed one more post after this post on this thread as a rebuttal and then let's move to a more appropriate thread if we are inclined to continue the discussion.

Where you turned my thinking on this is with statistics. Those who conceal carry are statistically less likely to commit crime. Crime to a degree is lower in cities with concealed carry. So far so good. Thanks for enlightening me on that. Now let's dig a bit deeper. Those who conceal carry have to get a license and undertake valuable training. This Cog is called gun regulation. You are required by an institution to undergo training if you want to conceal carry. The value of this gun regulation is born out in the statistics you mentioned. Which is another way of saying that unregulated gun ownership leads to more gun violence. This is where you jump on the 2nd amendment and constitution when progressives suggest regulation which you yourself went through to conceal carry.

Let's take the Paris shooting where you were one of the first to share with us your view that if there were concealed carry citizens in the audience lives could have been saved. I can accept that possibility. On the other hand if France had such lax gun laws like North America how many more terrorist acts by radicalized muslims would we have seen? Those radicalized muslims had to be extremely careful in how they secured those semi automatic weapons even with the relative open borders in France. Those kinds of fire arms are simply not widely available there. Just imagine if we had a similar percentage of radicalized muslims in North America with easily available semi automatic weapons.

That is basically my position. Where you get all tangled up is with the 2nd amendment and your fear of big government and the rights of a citizenry to form a militia to counter our government trying to limit freedoms. At the end this is a battle none of us will win since as I mentioned get used to being more and more regulated by institutions. It is what those in control always end up doing when chaos starts to brew in the collective. It's only going to get worst. The best way to promote your permission (not freedom) to conceal carry and own a fire arm is to further embrace regulation and prove through your proper use and no crime record that you are worthy of owning it.

Do you want to know how in the end those progressives are going to win on gun regulation? The same way Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld did in Iraq. All in the name of terrorism and keeping you safe. Which takes us back to the topic of this thread. FEAR.

[Ibon]

The Joe6P of the world will surrender freedom for the illusion of security and we will descend into another long period of Monarchical/Inherited power.

Starting with socializing the citizens with accepting a class system of haves and have nots. Which is where we are now. Once the global chaos reaches a point where we turn inward and domestic our military that was honed in urban warfare in places like Iraq, will be focused domestically to keep the permanent disenfranchised from rising up against their masters. The Police state will rise with armaments that will make those defending the 2nd amendment seem quaint.

[Pops]

I'm not sure...

My point with the previous post about how far removed from mortality we have become is partly that denying death and taking it out of normal daily life allows us to think we can make it out alive. Some large percentage of our wealth is spent on prolonging the last few months of pain before we succumb kicking and screaming.

Americans are fearful, we are afraid of everything, look at all the threads on this very site about any and everything from germs to diet to ... well, any and everything. Many pretend to revel in the "coming die-off" but I've decided that is just another schtick, another way to deal with the fear: "OMG! We're All Dead... oh well we deserve it."

"yeah... that's it!"

[ROCKMAN]

Ibon - I understand your sentiment. But: "On the other hand if France had such lax gun laws like North America how many more terrorist acts by radicalized muslims would we have seen? Those radicalized muslims had to be extremely careful in how they secured those semi automatic weapons even with the relative open borders in France. Those kinds of fire arms are simply not widely available there." Given the widespread carnage in Paris and the fire power that was brought to bare how can you say it's difficult for terrorists to secure weapons? I know it's a much worn out pitch but it's just as true in the US as the EU: guns laws are really only effective for those folks who don't break laws.

I don't want to give terrorist any new ideas but do you understand how easy it is to kill hundreds of folks in a single incident by unarmed terrorists? And that's the same possibility in the US as in any other spot on the planet.

As far as US shootings go I'll readily admit that there are 3 categories that concern me here: armed bad guys, armed good guys that aren't mentally suited to be armed and overly enthusiastic cops who fantasize about popping a "bad guy". I've known guys whose Napoleon complex led them to become cops. I've known “bad guys” I grew up with that had no concern when it came to hurting someone in order to get what they wanted. And long ago when I used to do weapons training I probably turned down about half of the potential students because I didn’t think they had the right mental mindset to be armed. My Yankee wife would fall into such a category if she asked me to train her…which she never would.

And yes: I’m never more than a couple of feet from a weapon 24/7. Not that I have any great expectation of having to shoot anyone but it does give me some peace of mind knowing it’s there.

[Ibon]

I'm not sure...

My point with the previous post about how far removed from mortality we have become is partly that denying death and taking it out of normal daily life allows us to think we can make it out alive. Some large percentage of our wealth is spent on prolonging the last few months of pain before we succumb kicking and screaming.

Americans are fearful, we are afraid of everything, look at all the threads on this very site about any and everything from germs to diet to ... well, any and everything. Many pretend to revel in the "coming die-off" but I've decided that is just another schtick, another way to deal with the fear: "OMG! We're All Dead... oh well we deserve it."

"yeah... that's it!"

I agree completely with this. I have the perspective of moving in and out of the US from countries that are much poorer and whose citizens are not nearly so fearful or entitled. You really see this with death. A couple of examples. Here in Panama when you buy a whole chicken guess what is inside with the gizzards? The head of the chicken. You are over 70 and you get a stroke here in Panama guess what happens. You are put comfortable in a bed and usually die within 5 days. Happened to my wifes mom and brother in the Philippines as well. The stroke victim, if able to communicate, does not want to financially burden his family by undertaking expensive procedures that will only prolong a suffering life. Nobody resents this. There is acceptance. Compare this in the US where 85% of our health care expenditures are for extending life which mostly means extending suffering and a compromised existence.

When I often refer to a "collective" its because you can really feel this. Everytime we arrive back in Panama it's like this big aaaahhhh.... a relaxed laid back feel. The minute we arrive back in the USA there is this tension, this anxiety. Don't ask me from what sense organ this can be perceived but it is real. You can feel the mind set of a collective. The one in the US is very fearful.

[PrestonSturges]

Get used to The Fear, because it is the big theme of the GOP for next year, fear and the need for war, war, war. Much of the fear is fear of "The Other," those people, who change from year to year, but the script is basically the same.

In one of my favorite books about the rise of the Nazis, "They thought they were free," people describe how the Nazis kept the public rushing from one ginned up "crisis" to the next, so that they hardly had a chance to notice the loss of their rights.

[Outcast_Searcher]

I'm a late boomer, my folks were "Silent Generation" kids of the depression/WWII. They saw tough times and their upbringing was rougher than we of the Spock generation (both Mr. & Dr.).

...

Along the way we lost touch with institutions that had previously been ubiquitous; church, civic and fraternal organisations, unions and (pardon the transgression) the single earner household. We are after all the Me generation.

I think lots of folks are wandering around aimlessly lost in suburbia. Alone in a crowd fighting to be first through the door on Black Friday. That is our motivation, our scorecard, our coup counting... the Big 50% Off Sale.

Good points Pops, and our situation (generation/parents) sounds very similar to me.

OTOH, IMO, a big part of why we have the folks wandering around aimlessly lost is BECAUSE our institutions including those you cite, schools, parents, etc:

Failed us, by stating things that weren't true. Not that they had bad intentions, but the ideas like:

1). The magical people in the sky will take care of you if you're good.
2). If you work hard you will be successful.
3). You will be better off than the previous generation if you work hard.
4). The US will be dominant because it is "the best".
5). Look up to your traditional heroes (athletes, clergy, business leaders, political leaders) as examples of what "greatness" is, and what you should aspire to.

All turned out to be mostly myth, once a generation of real world experience put things in better perspective. In fact, "stay in school" would be the main common bromide that was actually consistently worth following.

So here we are and everyone blames everyone ELSE, and the problems become ever more intractable as BAU growth continues apace, as human nature dictates.

[Pops]

I don't think I'm skeered of a lot of the things talked about here. Ebola, terrorists, Turkey shooting , ISIS, Mexicans, Pooty Poot beating his chest...

Sure all that stuff could affect me but as long as the main things hold together I think people will muddle through. I'm thinking Law and Order. Not pacification and certainly not oppression and definitely not the promise of "safety at all cost"

Just not Fascism or some kind of Orwellian Socialism (which we are not liable to I don't think), that affects how we can react.

Even worse, Balkanization.

[careinke]

Mitigation implies an enforced solution. Who enforces solutions? Government does.

Yes the thread is bogus because it presuppose we all live in fear. We don't. And it expresses a desire to eliminate fear.

You are the one implying that I am somehow evil for conceal carrying. I didn't bring it up before you did. You think taking that right away from me would make me less of a porcupine(in your words) How about leaving me and mine the hell alone? That will make me a lot less fearful.

Cog, you are a closet Anarchist.

I must admit, cities make me somewhat uneasy. Probably because I have no real plan on how to get out of one if disaster strikes (earthquake, civil disorder etc.). The best I can come up with is acquire a boat and work my way back to the homestead.

In a rural setting, I'm pretty confident in my ability to survive and help others do the same.