[basil_hayden]

For those of you are NOT government workers or living in Funville outside of the good ole USA, let me explain the 55 hour week where no drop in the level of performance is seen or can be tolerated.

It's called being independent and proud of it.

This consists of long days finding and doing work, long nights writing reports and proposals, short weekends catching up, to pay the mortgage, put food on the table and keep the lights on. It does NOT include luxuries like health care insurance, 401Ks or retirement in general, planned or paid days off, or God forbid, sick time, or bonuses. It generally does not include steak. It does NOT include having funds to risk in the stock market. It DOES include a lot of networking after hours at meetings of organizations I'd rather not be at.

55's a slow week. Perks? I'm my own master with high skill level and great referrals. But when you solve a customer's problem, the proverbial well is dry and another hole must be found to get water.

[Newfie]

Basil,

My condolences. You are like most addicts, you can't see the damage your addiction is doing.

I know you can't hear my message, at least right now. Maybe someday.

Good luck.

[Pops]

Lots of people dream of being independent, I dream of the next job.


Seriously though, I have more work than I really want right now and would like a few weeks off to get some stuff done. But a freelancer can't afford to turn work down, can't afford to gin up more work than he can handle either and sure can't take for granted something will turn up just because the light bill does.

Crap, I'm billing like 20 hours a week!

[Queaks]

Its interesting reading this particular thread. It is apparent most of you are not employers or independent contractors who are paid based on what you work.

I pay my workers hourly and don't tell them how much to work. However, if they don't work they don't get paid. I pay them well but based on the hours worked with no benefits. They can buy what they want its not up to me to give them the benefits.

Granted all are professional and none make less than $100k a year, but if they work 35 hours they get paid for that. I can't bill them out as a consultant if they are not working so why should I pay for more?

I work and pay myself for the hours billed as well. Yes I own the company and the additional earnings come to me after tax time as a capital gain. That's the way the business goes.

If you want to work less hang out your shingle as an independent contractor in whatever your specialty is. If you don't have a speciality , well then acquire one.

Why would any employer pay for 40 hours if you only work 35?

I do agree with an early poster, however, about productivity declining if excessive hours are constantly worked, and having done fixed priced contracts before, my experience is a guy can do 50 hours for many weeks, 65-70 in a week, but never constantly or they get slap happy and less productive in thier work, which is never good in fixed price.

Work independently based on what you produce or work hourly as you have the desire. Just don't expect any employer to pay you for not working. Grab for you own brass ring, don't expect it to be handed to you.
Queaks

[Newfie]

As I said, there is more than one concept floating around here.

But I think this is the core concept, but try to forget about pay for a moment so you can follow the logic.

5% of our population creates all the food we need in the US. We have a housing excess.

We don't NEED to work nearly as much as we do, we need work to fulfill some personal desire.

We do great damage by consuming, COMSUMING, CONSUMING. Which is why we are called "capitalist" and a "consumer society" All our consumerism is not only ruining our personal lives it is ruining the world around us through resource depletion.

Think about this for a second, if we have excess unemployment why are we looking to extend the retirement age? Doesn't that just make the matter worse?

We are all a bunch of damn fools, self made slaves to our consumerism, toiling away our life to make the upper 1% ultra rich.

A 35 hour work week would be a good start, but that would also require more legislation to assure a livable wage. In short, higher taxes on the super rich. But I have no hope that this will occur. On a personal level many of us can learn to ratchet back our work and live more within our available resources. Although that surely does not apply to all.

Exploring Voluntary Simplicity or Simple Living would be a good start.

[Cog]

The only one stopping you from working less hours is yourself.

[Queaks]

For those of you are NOT government workers or living in Funville outside of the good ole USA, let me explain the 55 hour week where no drop in the level of performance is seen or can be tolerated.

It's called being independent and proud of it.

This consists of long days finding and doing work, long nights writing reports and proposals, short weekends catching up, to pay the mortgage, put food on the table and keep the lights on. It does NOT include luxuries like health care insurance, 401Ks or retirement in general, planned or paid days off, or God forbid, sick time, or bonuses. It generally does not include steak. It does NOT include having funds to risk in the stock market. It DOES include a lot of networking after hours at meetings of organizations I'd rather not be at.

55's a slow week. Perks? I'm my own master with high skill level and great referrals. But when you solve a customer's problem, the proverbial well is dry and another hole must be found to get water.

Basil I agree with you, except I hope you will soon set up your own retirement with a Keogh or an IRA. I opened my first one many years ago when a janitor for a client was retiring and I noticed he had over $100K in his annuity ( I was setting up the systems for disbursement).. the power of compounding does work over time , his pay into it was less than $20 a week, but it grew over 35 years.

Yes you work on your own which was my point earlier, great. I don't have to work the 70 hour weeks anymore because I don't need to, but I put them in long ago. Reduce your takehome 5% and fund your future because at some point the long hours become harder or not worth the time away from the kids.

Keep at it on your own I never regret that I did. Yes when you solve a clients problem it is time to find another. I am fortunate in that my main clients are large and have continual needs, but I know about the dry spells. Still being your own master helps.
Keep it up!

[SeaGypsy]

Clearly Cog missed Newfie's point vie-sa-vie private contractor's need to balance workloads.

I have chosen to remain on an hourly contract basis for the entirety of my allied health career (4th year now). In Australia this automaticly means a 20% hike in hourly rate in exchange for no sick leave or holiday pay. I am not allowed to work more than 76 hours in a fortnight for a single employer, but may take other contracts simultaneously (& legally).

At times I have worked over 70 hours a week in medical, often worked over 100 when running the glass studio. It was mandatory to do rediculous hours in glass as we ran a furnace 24/7 which had a $60,000 cool down/ rebuild/ restart cost attached. I could not be more than 15 minutes away from the furnace outside business hours, in case of a failure in the temperature maintenance system, such as a powercut. After several years of this it was like a working holiday to go down to working 2 jobs in med support.

The last 3 years I have been working 3 months average block as much as I can take on, followed by 3 months R&R in the Philippines. It has been a pretty nice lifestyle.

Many people don't have this kind of choice, especially in countries with rising and high unemployment. Employers know the market, it's pretty obvious you can get away with employee abuse when you get hundreds of applicants for a position; moreso when there is zero enforcement of overtime pay rights or maximum working hours, as seems the case in the USA.

It's my position that the USA should do many things more like Australia, not least the labour laws and medicare.

A 4 day week is an interesting idea, people have to do something with that extra leisure time, likely they will be spending more locally.

BTW Cog, there are exemptions to the regular labour laws here; particularly in primary industry (especially mining related). I have many friends in shipping/ oil/ gas/ gold etc. The average roster is 7/12 hour days followed by 7/12 hour nights followed by 7 off with 6 weeks additional leave. Average wage for these jobs is around $140k. A rigid system is prone to snap; there needs to be some degree of flexibility, but ethics should always reign over workplace legislation. Those arguing otherwise are either mad or contemptuous of those many generations of struggle to get fairness into law.

[ColossalContrarian]

As I said, there is more than one concept floating around here.

But I think this is the core concept, but try to forget about pay for a moment so you can follow the logic.

5% of our population creates all the food we need in the US. We have a housing excess.

We don't NEED to work nearly as much as we do, we need work to fulfill some personal desire.

We do great damage by consuming, COMSUMING, CONSUMING. Which is why we are called "capitalist" and a "consumer society" All our consumerism is not only ruining our personal lives it is ruining the world around us through resource depletion.

Think about this for a second, if we have excess unemployment why are we looking to extend the retirement age? Doesn't that just make the matter worse?

We are all a bunch of damn fools, self made slaves to our consumerism, toiling away our life to make the upper 1% ultra rich.

A 35 hour work week would be a good start, but that would also require more legislation to assure a livable wage. In short, higher taxes on the super rich. But I have no hope that this will occur. On a personal level many of us can learn to ratchet back our work and live more within our available resources. Although that surely does not apply to all.

Exploring Voluntary Simplicity or Simple Living would be a good start.

I see what you're getting at as far as consumerism Newfie and it sounds like the line from Fight Club

"Fuck off with your sofa units and strine green stripe patterns, I say never be complete, I say stop being perfect, I say let... lets evolve, let the chips fall where they may. "

I think once you get into a lifestyle you resist as much as you can to change that lifestyle (as long as it's comfortable). Maybe there are other things we should be doing with our time but for many of us work and day to day hobbies are all we know.

I can go along with simplicity but I can't remain idle without going crazy and I have a feeling many people are like that. I suppose we could all smoke weed and just chill... but not everyone wants to have a cloudy head all the time. This is why we're at a snapping point I believe. There are too many idle minds getting pinched out of work and consumerism and it's a difficult change for some people to make. It would be difficult for me, I admit.

[AgentR11]

Basil I agree with you, except I hope you will soon set up your own retirement with a Keogh or an IRA. I opened my first one many years ago when a janitor for a client was retiring and I noticed he had over $100K in his annuity ( I was setting up the systems for disbursement).. the power of compounding does work over time , his pay into it was less than $20 a week, but it grew over 35 years.

Ummmm, this is a doomer board. Shew ya optimist! Retirement? You think the government isn't going to confiscate those savings either directly, or by inflation and means testing benefits for the elderly? bwahahahhahahah.

Saving for my kids college, so they can leisurely go without borrowing money, sure. Chem Engi in 5yrs with no loan and no part time job is a completely different experience than Chem Engi in 4yrs with massive student loans and part time pizza delivery. Time horizon is close enough that I think I have good odds on getting it spent before it gets snatched too. In the end, we're all going to be living on what SS pays out, whether we saved for retirement or not. Sad, but I see no way that it can play out any differently.

Where do these optimists keep coming from Sheesh!

[ColossalContrarian]

I know what you mean AgentR11, some have been prepping for these days for many years and all the sudden we’re supposed to stop to help everyone else. It's one of those things where the "writing's been on the wall" for so long, and those who’ve been busting their balls prepping should feel bad for the zombies out there?!!!? Ha, NO!!! So many people are, zombies who have no clue what’s coming even though it been staring them in the face for YEARS!!! This is going to be a long painful journey for many and this is just the very beginning. If you’re prepped, look out to be the enemy is the fact of the matter.
I imagine by the time 35hr work weeks are instituted there will be a lot worse problems than unemployment in the world. People will be lucky to find steady supplies of food and electricity in the coming decades and it’s going to be a slooowwww…. decent.

If you’ve known winter was coming for so long, and you’ve been prepping, whilst getting shot down by the green shoot crew constantly on the MSM and blogosphere, why would you give their supporters shelter and warmth over your own family?

This has been staring people in the face for so long, if you aren’t prepared or haven’t been prepping, it’s hard to know what to tell people, all the sudden you become the enemy of the populous. For hard work and preparation of all things!!!

[basil_hayden]

Gosh Agent, both of your posts on this thread reflect my experience to a T. Get outta my tree.

As for most of the rest of you, healthcare and teaching etc., these are government jobs because by definition that's where your salary comes from.

As far as simpler, less consumptive living, what do you want me to get rid of - the roof, the lights or the food?

I respect the compounding comment and strive to get to the point where I can take advantage of this, but seems like everytime I get close to this either work dries up or inflation swallows that extra 5%. Sure doesn't help living in the most expensive state, but the messes I clean up are only found where civilization is.

[SeaGypsy]

I am about the least stuck person I know, I chose to do what I am doing for the time being as to avail myself of flexiblity/ no small thing to some, certainly not me. I am a fan of Orlov and his intellectual direction, besides his practice, which I to some extent endeavour to emulate.

35 hours is shifting deck chairs but this Titanic is going to take much longer to go down. So long that the ingenious have plenty of time and material to recyle, reinvent and build some liferafts beyond those being currently built for the super rich and filled with their toys.

I am simply for the common man. I cannot hold any grudge on the drudge. All power the the ordinary man (or woman) who is simply doing their best with what they have towards what they are able to perceive of the future.

I can and have switched careers on a dime. I can and have built boats from other's junk then lived on them for years. I can and have explored the most remote parts of the most remote country finding the most abundant natural environment in the world.

I can find dignity in most human beings if I look hard enough.

But when push comes to shove there are me, Newfie's crew, the chineuropean seagypsys, Ibon in Panama, Eastbay with his friendships around the world; these are who I see as examples of actual peak oil awareness. I have never seen eye to eye with any kind of doomstead as the key to survival mentality, to me this is both paranoid thinking and just as likely to become a disaster as no doomstead. Flexibility, mobility, freedom in a real sense are the most practical skills and abilities.

For the time being, screw the rich, long live the union.

[Newfie]

The only one stopping you from working less hours is yourself.

Right on.

That is not to say that you don't have to have a sustainable income, but beyond that...........it is all self inflicted.

[Newfie]

....................
I think once you get into a lifestyle you resist as much as you can to change that lifestyle (as long as it's comfortable). Maybe there are other things we should be doing with our time but for many of us work and day to day hobbies are all we know.

You need to actively practice doing other things with your life, it is your only life, treat it as precious. You are not a commodity to be wasted, at least you should not be to yourself. If that doesn't work, mentally try saying it to your kids, then imagine your parents saying it to you. "Your life is precious, make the most of it, don't waste it.

Start by shooting the TV.


I can go along with simplicity but I can't remain idle without going crazy and I have a feeling many people are like that. I suppose we could all smoke weed and just chill... but not everyone wants to have a cloudy head all the time. This is why we're at a snapping point I believe. There are too many idle minds getting pinched out of work and consumerism and it's a difficult change for some people to make. It would be difficult for me, I admit.

I, nor Russel (despite the provocative title of his piece,) were promoting idleness. It is important to have the ability and time to have quite reflective moments, that is when we get to listen to ourselves and find out who we are.

I think we agree that our US work style tends to dull the senses, to keep us from self reflection on what is important. Face it, the real wealth in life is not in a fancy car or iGadget, it is in the face of our loved ones and in savoring our own personal existence.

While some of us have found 'jobs' we really love, most of us do jobs we tolerate simply to make money, which we then blow on crap, which makes us slaves to our jobs. This cycle is somewhat inate to our being but is amplified by the current economic thinking and is expressed as Capitalism and Consumerism.

Find something you love to do and do it until your hearts content.

But ................ I warn you this, for most of us, once we stop chasing the ball, we wonder "What have I done, is that all there is?" Which is why so many guys drop dead right around retirement age. Practice retirement.

[AgentR11]

"What have I done, is that all there is?" Which is why so many guys drop dead right around retirement age. Practice retirement.

I'll pass. And I don't have a "retirement age" anywhere on my job description. I don't intend to stop until I can't continue, and once I can't continue I won't really need much of anything.

As to "what have I done?"; I've done precisely what I set out to do. I could have done a few things better, and a lot of things worse, I didn't quite make it to backpacking in the Brooks Range solo, and anyone that thinks I could do that at 68 (or even 55 with this bod) is a friggin moron, but overall; content.

To be honest, if you can't look at that question, "what have I done?" and find contentedness; you done did messed up but good. Time to get off the bus and start walking in a random direction until you find something that will grant such an answer to that question. Otherwise, you're just wasting your life.

[Newfie]

...............

To be honest, if you can't look at that question, "what have I done?" and find contentedness; you done did messed up but good. Time to get off the bus and start walking in a random direction until you find something that will grant such an answer to that question. Otherwise, you're just wasting your life.

Bully for you if you are content. But really, do you fit the description of the average j6p or are you just talking for yourself?

Sure, some get it right, others (self included) ?????

[Expatriot]

So in the same example the same small business with 10 employees working 35 hours would only log 350 hours in paid hourly labor. In order to keep their operations up they would have to either pay for 50 hours of over time for the existing 10 employees or hire two new workers.

Either decision will create more jobs because you will either end up with 10 better paid employees which means more cash for the economy

It's good that I read the Internets. Because. Any time that I think there's a bit of hope to get through this next phase without massive bloodshed I read things like this and it extinguishes that hope.

It's magic money. Stroke of pen. Money all around.

It's really right out of the Atlas Shrugged playbook. The belief that you can just legislate jobs.

Here's what will happen - businesses have been culling employees for quite some time. They won't simply hire new people. They will simply start paying less so that the math all comes out when they pay their best workers for 40 hours. Or they will charge more for their products.

Either way, same result.

But, like I wrote, thanks for the reality check. It's good to be reminded that my core belief that there will be chaos is most likely correct.

[Cog]

@Expatriot

You nailed it exactly +1000

[AgentR11]

Sure, some get it right, others (self included) ?????

Should get it right, or figure out how to get it right. Doing the same dumb thing because you can't think of something better, remains dumb.

If one is unsatisfied doing X.
STOP DOING X.