Schmuto wrote:I was wrong about Li - you're right - 2 of em. Are you saying that you pulled your numbers from a comment in a link on a blog? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying you're unsupported, if that was your basis.
The comment from the blog has all the sources for their info, although you'll have to go to the SAFT site to look up their MP series batteries since the links are outdated. There isn't really a whole lot there, just manufacturer's specs and some basic chemistry/arithmetic, so unless you have proof that SAFT is wrong about their own product, or that the periodic table is wrong, a blog comment like that already has all the support it needs.
Schmuto wrote:I'd like to agree, but you have failed to provide support.
I've failed to provide support for stuff that's already known? Go look up the lithium content in SAFT's stuff, or better yet, just search for "lithium grams wh", and you'll find plenty of info. Content seems to range from ~40-80grams/kWh, probably depending on battery design.
Smaller high power Lithium rechargeables have closer to ~80g of Lithium/kWh, while other Lithium rechargeables like Chinese LiFeYPO4 cells tend to have closer to 40g/kWh. That's .04-.08kg of Lithium per cell, which is .2-.4kg of Lithium Carbonate given the atomic mass of Lithium relative to Lithium Carbonate, with the same price, or lower in the case of higher energy/lower power cells, as what I've posted above and what the comment in my first link in the thread had.
Schmuto wrote:yesplease wrote:Old sk00l large format batteries may loose that much depending on chemistry, but
newer tech, such as LFPs, only looses about 1% per year due to calendar aging and something like 5% per 1000 100% dod cycles. For the average U.S. driver at 15k miles/year with a ~100 mile EV, they'll loose something like 2% of capacity per year.
Dude, once again, you have no support. Wiki says 20% lost per year for Li Ion - you link to what? A 3 page power point on "projected" something or other?
Those are manufacturer's specs based on testing as per the info in the pdf. I'm gonna go with the manufacturer's specs for a specific chemistry as opposed to specs on wikipedia for "typical laptop batteries" stored at full charge at ~80F. Most car maker's aren't going to stick a "typical laptop battery" in a car, since it's characteristics aren't suitable given the warrantied lifespan of 10-15 years as required by law for most vehicles. The only car which they are used in due to their higher power to weight ratio, differing laws, and availability at the time was the Tesla roadster, which uses a BMS along with the car's air conditioning unit to keep the pack a little above 32F when it's plugged in, and a bit higher when it's being driven, keeping losses from aging at ~3+%/year, as per the wiki info.
Course, like I said before, this is the only EV that's using laptop batteries. Other manufacturers are using different batteries with different aging characteristics. Aptera for instance is using LFPs, which, like I mentioned before, according to the manufacturer, loose ~1%/year due to aging. The LG-Chem cells that are going to be used in the Volt, or whatever GM happens to be called at the time, are LiMnO2 cells that use additives that improve lifespan at higher temperatures. Every battery, and even BMS, is going to be different, depending on the application, so saying that a car battery is going to behave like a laptop battery because both battery types use Lithium is like saying a small hatchback is going to perform just as well as a tank on the battlefield because both are land vehicles.
Maybe if the auto manufacturer was deliberately trying to bankrupt, they'd just toss a bunch of laptop batteries w/ no management in a car, but most aren't, at least not anymore.
Schmuto wrote:Come on man. Citing to comments sections in blogs and 3rd party prospective battery tech is no way to go through life son.
That wasn't third party info AFAIK, but the NDA version of A123's battery specs. The spec sheet on A123's site looks nearly identical, but with less info. Anyway, if you wanna play like that...
Come on man. Not being able to spend a few seconds searching the interwebs for the lithium content of the average li-ion battery, not doing a bit of basic chem/math, all while using info from wiki regarding
laptop battery aging characteristics to describe [i]auto[/b] battery aging characteristics is no way to go through life son.
Schmuto wrote:yesplease wrote:Laptop batteries are an inelastic commodity for most. It's hard for most people to open 'em up and solder in replacement cells when they go bad, and w/o 'em a laptop looses a lot of it's appeal. Essentially, they're bending most people over on 'em because most people aren't able to do anything about it. The batteries
only cost 'em about ~25-40 bucks, depending on capacity and what not, and everything on top of that is gravy baby. It's the same reason why a Toyota stealship would charge me $5-10 for an uncommon, but very cheap (I'm guessing about ~10 cents in bulk), o-ring.
Dude, come on. The correct comparison is between, let's say, the official Toyota oil filter and the off-the-shelf one.
A comparison between a Toyota oil filter and a generic version of the same thing is the opposite comparison, since the oil filter has been commoditized, offered by plenty of people besides Toyota. A model specific o-ring otoh, isn't something that's very common, and therefore isn't very likely to be commoditized, meaning Toyota can charge big bucks for it even though it's still just an o-ring that probably cost 'em a few cents in bulk.
Schmuto wrote:It's ridiculous to attempt to argue that the price of batteries are so high because Dell is sticking it to us. It is simple to provide after-market batteries - they're out there. Problem is, they're all very expensive.
Your suggestion that it's a world-wide price-fixing scheme is laughable.
I never said they were culpable of price fixing, just that they're charging higher prices to make lots of profit. Lithium costs for a laptop battery are only about $.10-.20, depending on chemistry. Manufacturing/distribution costs are probably only ~$20-40 at most given limited volume. The rest is all gravy. For example a M8416 battery for a G5 laptop is only ~$50-60 for a generic, but it's ~$165 for the apple version. That $100+ difference is all gravy. I'm not sure if the gap is as big for D33l's stuff, or if the battery modules they use are common enough to warrant a generic version, but in general most of the cost of a ~$100+ 50-100Wh battery is mark-up.
Schmuto wrote:Li Ion batteries cost 100 bucks for my laptop. You haven't explained why that is.
Of course I did. I even gave an example in this post. Now, just because you want to believe that a business would never shaft you (which btw, is not price fixing) doesn't mean that they aren't doing it. They're created to make a profit, not help consumers get the best price on their products.
Schmuto wrote:You haven't explained why an EV with a battery pack 1,000 times or more larger is going to ever be reasonable in price.
An EV pack probably won't be 1000 times larger, more like 100-200 times larger, since having too much unused capacity would lead to the pack aging out w/o seeing much in the way of cycling. In terms of cost, for a ~$100 ~50-100Wh laptop battery, a consumer is paying ~$1000-2000/kWh. Buying directly from a manufacturer is at
~$350/kWh for LFP batteries with similar specs, although probably not quite as good, to A123's stuff. A major manufacturer can negotiate a volume discount, probably somewhere around a ~40% reduction, so maybe ~$200/kWh. Unlike your laptop batteries, which are optimized for light weight, as opposed to lifespan, these batteries will take a decade or so to loose ~20% due to aging, as opposed to a ~20% loss in one year, and they can also cycle thousands of times more than a conventional LiCoO2 pack.
In terms of price, I can go out an get a little under 1kWh of LFPs for the same price you'll pay for a ~.05-.1kWh battery from d3ll. That same battery will run ~3000 cycles to 70% dod, and more if we let capacity drop more, along with a ~1-2% capacity loss/year, so unlike a laptop battery stored at ~80F that only needs ~2.5 years and tens to hundreds of cycles to drop to 50% capacity, these batteries will probably last for decades and complete thousands of cycles before they drop to 50% capacity.
We have two key differences here, a ~5-10 times difference in price between what you pay per kWh for a battery from D3ll as opposed to what a major manufacturer pays for batteries in bulk from a large battery manufacturer, as well as a huge difference in the lifetime of the battery and amount of energy that can be stored due to different battery chemistry and management. All told, in terms of price per kWh stored, a laptop battery is ~20-40 times more expensive per kWh stored, because it's designed to be light, not economical, and suffers from huge markups as well as low volume, both of which raise it's price significantly.
Course, when it comes to PHEVs, even manufacturer's aren't going to stick a ~$500-60/kWh A123 battery in when they can get a ~$150-200/kWh LG-Chem cell in a PHEV, since all they need to get past is the ~10-15 year 100k/150k mile PHEV battery warranty. An A123 pack could probably do ~300k in the same situation, but given how fickle people are about cars cheaper cells that'll last for the federal/state warranty period and the average lifespan of vehicles for a few hundred less per kWh are good enough, so to speak,
Schmuto wrote:EV technology is DOA until somebody mass produces a car to the specs I mentioned.
As your opinion, that's fine, but whether or not EVs are successful depends on way more than just your opinion.
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