[mattduke]

"It's not even a question of how much it costs for wood pellets or firewood, so much as if they're even available."

link

[countrymomma]

Yep. Excellent point.

So everyone has a wood burning stove. That'll help avoid those high heating oil & propane prices.

But...


How many of the hundreds of millions of people in the US alone are going to try cutting down trees to warm their houses over the next year (or 5 or 10)? How much wood is being burned during the years that the new trees are growing? (Assuming people even make the effort to plant new trees to replace those they cut down.)

There can be no renewal with so many people needing the resource.

Food shortages are going to be bad, but nothing left to keep people from freezing or even to cook food on is going to be a major killer.

Cow pies anyone?

Though we don't yet use wood heat we're planting trees each year, like our lives depend on it, but it's never going to be enough.

Same goes for all those folks who think they're going to feed their families by hunting. When/if TSHTF you're going to have far more luck shooting one of the 100 other hunters in the woods than a deer.

[Kristen]

Maybe they could start burning criminals alive for heat. A solution to the wood shortage and prison crowding in one!

[WyoDutch]

Firewood out here isn't the best... pine and aspen for the most part. On the other hand... it's cheap. $5 a cord on public lands... $900 for a logging truck (semi) load.

Coal is dirt-cheap. $35 for a 3/4-ton pickup load (you load).

[img][img]http://fototime.com/A7269ABAEF68E7F/standard.jpg[/img][/img]

[nobodypanic]

Yep. Excellent point.

Same goes for all those folks who think they're going to feed their families by hunting. When/if TSHTF you're going to have far more luck shooting one of the 100 other hunters in the woods than a deer.

yet somehow starting a garden in your backyard will do the trick?

sorry, i just had to.

in all seriousness it really depends on where you live. for example, if you live in the middle of alaska, then yeah your gold as far as hunting goes, but i am not too sure how much gardening would help in that circumstance; now if you live on the outskirts of a major city in a temperate clime, well not so good, right? but then gardening might be a viable method.

[nobodypanic]

Coal is dirt-cheap. $35 for a 3/4-ton pickup load (you load).

how far would that go given an average sized home and an average winter? (i know you can't be really accurate but just guesstimate.)

[The_Virginian]

Hey the GOOD NEWS is that the great State of Vermont is helping people aqiure firewood permits for state managed forests via the "wood warms" program...

This should be a model for most states...

May "make work" ala Conservation Corps forest planting and management.

And yes you may need a guzzulling PICK-ME UP TRUCK to haul it. Or live really close by...a boon to those who can make some cash off this...

A new era indeed.

[WyoDutch]

Coal is dirt-cheap. $35 for a 3/4-ton pickup load (you load).

how far would that go given an average sized home and an average winter? (i know you can't be really accurate but just guesstimate.)

Boy... I hate to plead ignorance, but I yam what I yam.

We have a catalytic wood-only stove in the house and a coal/wood stove in the barn/pantry/garage. We only burn coal at night in the barn stove.

Maybe someone more smarter than I is can chime in here.

[jbrovont]

Get some 5x8 foam board with the foil backing - it has a very high R-Value - and make some window plugs. if you can afford it, stack enough in your garage to cover the interior surface of your exterior walls and ceiling. It's ugly, but that and a very small amount of heat (say from a coleman lamp) will keep you from freezing in the dead of winter. If you have a huge house, just do the inside of a few rooms - say where you sleep and your living room.

Last I checked the stuff was $8-$10 a sheet. You should be able to fix something up for $200 or so, but it will save you a huge amount in fuel costs.

We just did our windows at night in the winter for a few years and it cut our fuel use almost in half. Also, get some silicone caulk and get absolutely methodical about fixing any air leaks where infiltration ocures. A tight fitting storm door goes a long way - even if it's just duct tape along the edges. You'd be absolutely amazed. If you have cold spots on the ground level floor, cover them with heavy rugs. If your heater vents blow up behind your curtains, use some books to hold the drapes back and redirect the heat into the center of the room.

[Heineken]

Anyone who wants to buy superior white-oak firewood please PM me. You'll have to cut up the trees I select and fell, and transport the wood to your house, and split it yourself, though. Bring evidence of liability insurance absolving me in case of accidents.

That's the problem with firewood as a "commodity." It's incredibly labor- and transportation-intensive. Wood heat makes tremendous sense, but only for local or personal use. As gasoline and diesel grow ever more expensive, this will become ever more true.

[coyote]

in all seriousness it really depends on where you live. for example, if you live in the middle of alaska, then yeah your gold as far as hunting goes, but i am not too sure how much gardening would help in that circumstance; now if you live on the outskirts of a major city in a temperate clime, well not so good, right? but then gardening might be a viable method.

This is one reason why I've learned trapping. In most suburban areas there are plenty of small animals around, rabbits and squirrels especially. Note: the most effective and humane traps are illegal in most states - unless of course you're in a survival situation.

In any case, I think most of us are learning to garden not to supply all our calories (as jdumars has posted, this will be nearly impossible for many), but for the sake of vitamins - I imagine that bulk beans and so on will be available for quite a while to keep the meat on your bones, at least for those lucky enough to reside in the United States. But that by itself is a good way to get unhealthy and stay that way if you can't produce your own fruits and veggies, which will be the most expensive items at the store.

Long term, of course, it's anybody's guess. I do stock up on the calorie rich emergency foodstuffs too, just in case. I use earthquakes as an excuse. For some reason that's more acceptable to people. But this year's gardening has taught me, if there were any doubt before, that I cannot possibly produce all my own food.

I am lucky enough to live in an area that doesn't strictly require heating in winter. If the electricity goes we'll roast, but we won't freeze.

[cube]

"It's not even a question of how much it costs for wood pellets or firewood, so much as if they're even available."

link

good post
I call this death by substitution.
corn used to be cheap - until it was used for making ethanol
lead metal used to be cheap - until lead acid battery bikes became fashionable in China
electricity used to be cheap - until electric heat was used to replace heating oil

As crude oil gets more dear society will *try* to find a cheaper substitute.
If everybody tries to jump onto this *cheaper* substitute then it no longer stays cheap.
That's econ 101 --> supply and demand

[Heineken]

When I lived in VA I heated almost exclusively with wood. I used about 3 cords a winter. My house was 1000 sq.ft. and not very well insulated. And I often got carried away and had to open the front door to cool off. In a well built house of the same size you could probably get that down to two cords. I've never used coal but I know it contains much more energy than wood. I would think a truckload of coal would last all winter.

I heat only with wood also, and my living quarters are only 700 square feet. I have to leave the upper window sashes partly open most of the winter. I built a special vent in the ceiling to discharge additional waste heat into the attic. I've got it down to a science by now and am generally able to keep the temperature cool enough for human habitation. The woodstove I own is too big, but I'm too cheap to replace it with a smaller one.

Wish I could sell some of my surplus heat!

[KingM]

I just stacked 4 cords of wood in the last twenty-four hours. Wood is very expensive these days and not always easy to get. The going rate this summer is around $250/cord for seasoned wood and about $220/cord for green wood.

On the other hand, a cord of wood will replace ~150 gallons of heating oil. Our pre-buy offer was $4.79/gallon. Last year my inn burned 2200 gallons of oil from October through April. I'll be replacing about 80% of that this winter with wood heat.

[frankthetank]

I cut firewood this weekend.

VERY LABOR INTENSIVE. We were sweating like a bunch of grease monkeys out there. Not to mention the ticks and mosquitoes.

People around here made a jump to pellet stoves, but still haven't heard of too many making the jump to wood.

One problem i was already seeing is trying to get the wood OUT of the forest! We have at least 10 or so freshly windblown down oaks (with some being very large trees) down in the valley. Its a solid couple hundred yards to just get them up a steep hill and to the truck. I'm thinking i wait until snow is on the ground and load a big sled up (ice fishing type) with logs and haul them out that way?

Too bad the drive is 40 minutes from my house (about 90miles round trip) so i have to burn roughly 5 or 6 gallons of gasoline to get there and back (full size pickup which is needed to haul wood). Thats probably enough to last me a month.

I still have a feeling we are going to see even more of a mass exodus out of the colder parts of this country (down the road).

[Heineken]

I think the exodus will be in the opposite direction, Frank!

Cold is more survivable than heat, in my view. And with time the heat will be getting hotter, and the cold more moderate.

[vtsnowedin]

Now lets do a little cipherin here. 70 acres at 1/2 cord per acre per year sustainable growth rate= 35 cord per year minus 10 cord for the house leaves 25 to sell at $225 per cord minus $25 per cord fuel to deliver it equals $7000 and a wornout back and chainsaw and truck.

Actually the local logger has turned away a 100 potental costomers due to the high cost of fuel and the good prices 8ft hardwood pulp is bringing. I may sell a few cord if I'm not otherwise gainfully employed.

[girlscout]

I wonder how far a firewood shortage may spread this winter, especially after folks bristle at their first oil fill up. My mother said that in her development in NE PA, that she is already seeing people have firewood delivered earlier and in greater quantities than ever before.

[MrBill]

Get some 5x8 foam board with the foil backing - it has a very high R-Value - and make some window plugs. if you can afford it, stack enough in your garage to cover the interior surface of your exterior walls and ceiling. It's ugly, but that and a very small amount of heat (say from a coleman lamp) will keep you from freezing in the dead of winter. If you have a huge house, just do the inside of a few rooms - say where you sleep and your living room.

Last I checked the stuff was $8-$10 a sheet. You should be able to fix something up for $200 or so, but it will save you a huge amount in fuel costs.

We just did our windows at night in the winter for a few years and it cut our fuel use almost in half. Also, get some silicone caulk and get absolutely methodical about fixing any air leaks where infiltration ocures. A tight fitting storm door goes a long way - even if it's just duct tape along the edges. You'd be absolutely amazed. If you have cold spots on the ground level floor, cover them with heavy rugs. If your heater vents blow up behind your curtains, use some books to hold the drapes back and redirect the heat into the center of the room.

Seriously, before you make your house, cabin or garage 'too air tight' make sure you have proper ventilation as well. Wood stove chimney fires are not the only danger, but asphyxiation as well. Especially as a cooling fire can create a downdraft in the chimney. I have gotten carbon monoxcide poisoning once, which like freezing your skin, digits or extremities makes you more vulnerable the next time, and once almost asphyxiated in a cabin with no ventilation. Luckily, not all of us slept through the night and were able to open a window despite it being -20 degrees outside, but even so many had red cheeks and splitting headaches the next day. We might have all died otherwise.